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Confusion on colors

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  • o.barsukov
    To state the obvious, I m new to the SCA, and Uprising in Idaho this year was my first event. I absolutely loved it, and since then I ve been working on things
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 22, 2012
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      To state the obvious, I'm new to the SCA, and Uprising in Idaho this year was my first event. I absolutely loved it, and since then I've been working on things to improve the look of my persona and my garb.

      I'd gone through several no-no lists I'd found on google before I started and thought I had a pretty solid grasp on what not to do. One of the first things I worked on was a baldric for my sword(unsharpened and all), so I avoided red and white leathers. Several members of my local group saw the leather I was working with and got all over me for using red leather. This is where my apparent not so solid grasp of what not to do comes in.

      http://www.outfitterssupply.com/ShowAdditionalImg.asp?number=WLF403
      That's the leather I got (in person it's got a bit more of a chestnut hue to it than the picture, but still close.) Is that considered red in the SCA? I'd assume shades/types of red (crimson, scarlet, et al) are covered in the definition of 'red', but are slight hues considered 'red' as well? Perhaps it's the artist in me, but that's not 'red'.

      Somewhat off topic, but a member mentioned looking up Chatelaine resources before I make anything more (which I did before I started anything, but apparently I'm doing things wrong.) Does anyone have a pretty thorough guide for new people on what not to make/avoid? I have googled for a list again (this time under Chatelaine) and all I've really dug up is info on how to be a Chatelaine, basic things I've already gone over, and lists that don't answer the questions I have.

      Thanks in advance!
    • chemistbb3
      Red is Red is Red. Some of the red leathers age and wear to become browner than they started. Some folks are over sensitive and the customs in some kingdoms
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 22, 2012
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        Red is Red is Red. Some of the red leathers age and wear to become "browner" than they started. Some folks are over sensitive and the customs in some kingdoms are a bit different than in other kingdoms.

        The first belt I made was out of latigo leather. I also got some flack for using a "red" leather. I just told them it was not red, but just latigo leather. Since I wear a lot of red, I would then point to some part of my clothes and say "this is what I call red".

        If you have a bunch for the leather and what the other folks are saying, buy a bottle of brown leather dye and dye over the origional color the leather.

        William

        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "o.barsukov" <o.barsukov@...> wrote:
        >
        > To state the obvious, I'm new to the SCA, and Uprising in Idaho this year was my first event. I absolutely loved it, and since then I've been working on things to improve the look of my persona and my garb.
        >
        > I'd gone through several no-no lists I'd found on google before I started and thought I had a pretty solid grasp on what not to do. One of the first things I worked on was a baldric for my sword(unsharpened and all), so I avoided red and white leathers. Several members of my local group saw the leather I was working with and got all over me for using red leather. This is where my apparent not so solid grasp of what not to do comes in.
        >
        > http://www.outfitterssupply.com/ShowAdditionalImg.asp?number=WLF403
        > That's the leather I got (in person it's got a bit more of a chestnut hue to it than the picture, but still close.) Is that considered red in the SCA? I'd assume shades/types of red (crimson, scarlet, et al) are covered in the definition of 'red', but are slight hues considered 'red' as well? Perhaps it's the artist in me, but that's not 'red'.
        >
        > Somewhat off topic, but a member mentioned looking up Chatelaine resources before I make anything more (which I did before I started anything, but apparently I'm doing things wrong.) Does anyone have a pretty thorough guide for new people on what not to make/avoid? I have googled for a list again (this time under Chatelaine) and all I've really dug up is info on how to be a Chatelaine, basic things I've already gone over, and lists that don't answer the questions I have.
        >
        > Thanks in advance!
        >
      • Theanswerlady1
        Latigo is a leather process, usually waxy/oily making it a good choice for working leather like reins and harness. It is great for armor being tough.
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 22, 2012
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          Latigo is a leather process, usually waxy/oily making it a good choice for working leather like reins and harness. It is great for armor being tough. Generally available in black, brown, burgundy (more from Hide House in Napa CA). Because it is water repellent, it is not very tool-able or dyeable. Other leathers, (veg-tanned) are water permeable, dyeable, paintable, toolable, stampable, etc. unless they are sueded or rough-out.

          yis
          Tzipah of Clannah Drakonis
          Bestwode Shire
          Principality of Cynagua
          Kingdom of the West





          -----Original Message-----
          From: chemistbb3 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
          To: scanewcomers <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:36 pm
          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Confusion on colors





          Red is Red is Red. Some of the red leathers age and wear to become "browner" than they started. Some folks are over sensitive and the customs in some kingdoms are a bit different than in other kingdoms.

          The first belt I made was out of latigo leather. I also got some flack for using a "red" leather. I just told them it was not red, but just latigo leather. Since I wear a lot of red, I would then point to some part of my clothes and say "this is what I call red".

          If you have a bunch for the leather and what the other folks are saying, buy a bottle of brown leather dye and dye over the origional color the leather.

          William

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "o.barsukov" <o.barsukov@...> wrote:
          >
          > To state the obvious, I'm new to the SCA, and Uprising in Idaho this year was my first event. I absolutely loved it, and since then I've been working on things to improve the look of my persona and my garb.
          >
          > I'd gone through several no-no lists I'd found on google before I started and thought I had a pretty solid grasp on what not to do. One of the first things I worked on was a baldric for my sword(unsharpened and all), so I avoided red and white leathers. Several members of my local group saw the leather I was working with and got all over me for using red leather. This is where my apparent not so solid grasp of what not to do comes in.
          >
          > http://www.outfitterssupply.com/ShowAdditionalImg.asp?number=WLF403
          > That's the leather I got (in person it's got a bit more of a chestnut hue to it than the picture, but still close.) Is that considered red in the SCA? I'd assume shades/types of red (crimson, scarlet, et al) are covered in the definition of 'red', but are slight hues considered 'red' as well? Perhaps it's the artist in me, but that's not 'red'.
          >
          > Somewhat off topic, but a member mentioned looking up Chatelaine resources before I make anything more (which I did before I started anything, but apparently I'm doing things wrong.) Does anyone have a pretty thorough guide for new people on what not to make/avoid? I have googled for a list again (this time under Chatelaine) and all I've really dug up is info on how to be a Chatelaine, basic things I've already gone over, and lists that don't answer the questions I have.
          >
          > Thanks in advance!
          >









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ian Green
          Don t wear white belts or baldrics or white scarves on your arms. Everything else, clothing wise, is pretty much fair game. There are some things that are
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 22, 2012
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            Don't wear white belts or baldrics or white scarves on your arms.

            Everything else, clothing wise, is pretty much fair game. There are some
            things that are culturally thought of as belonging to a certain kind of
            person it is only cultural.

            You see in the SCA we have knights who take on squires, laurels who take on
            apprentices and pelicans who take on proteges White Scarves = same on
            shoulder or arm Bronze Rings=bronze scarf on shoulder or arm.

            Squire = Red Belt
            Apprentice = Green Belt
            Protege = Yellow Belt
            Cadet = Red Scarf

            Here's the trick. NONE of those things is officially recognized by SCA,
            inc. not a one of them. They are however firmly entrenched in SCA
            culture, and in my opinion they should be. Since they are not officially
            recognized, they have no protections.

            A story once told to me was about a new lady who got dressed up, did a fine
            job and wore a red belt because that was went well with the outfit. Well a
            couple of squires happened upon this lady and started questioning her and
            telling her she couldn't wear the belt. This story supposedly takes place
            in the Kingdom of An Tir. A Laurel walks up and sees these two squires and
            asks them who their Knight is. This is a question you answer when asked
            but they himmed and hawed about it.

            The Laurel asked them if they were ashamed of their Knight to which they
            responded "No," and gave the name of their Knight. The Laurel went and
            spoke with that Knight. The new lady had two men-at-arms who did her every
            bidding for the rest of that event.

            There is no reason not to be wearing a red baldric that I can think of.
            Not one. "Oh you could be mistaken for a squire," I doubt it, they wear
            red belts. And you know what? Squire is not a rank. Like that of
            apprentice or protege is nothing more than a title taken by someone who has
            a formal attachment (is a "dependent" of) to the requisite peer. It means
            only what it means between those who have that relationship and for the
            rest of us it means that if we catch the "dependent," doing something good
            or wrong we have someone to go talk to about it.

            Now, I'm not belittling those relationships in the slightest. They are
            important to those who have them. I myself am an apprentice. I have asked
            people who were wearing a green belt who they were apprenticed to. I have
            been given names and I have been told, "I'm not an apprentice." My
            response either way is, "Okay, that's cool." And that should be the
            response, in their own way, of everyone else.

            When I was a Chatelian I told my newcomers that if they chose to wear those
            color belts to be ready to explain that they weren't whatever belt color
            might be indicating, but they shouldn't be harassed about it at all. And if
            they were, to get that person's name and _I_ would deal with it.

            It is getting to the point in the SCA that if we reserved all culturally
            accepted things that it would be utterly ridiculous in my mind.

            Belt colors could not be red, yellow, green or blue. Scarves could not be
            red or black.

            Or we can all just take a chill pill, ask if we are curious and once
            getting our answer, move on. As chivalrous behavior should do.

            Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

            Ian the Green

            On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Theanswerlady1 <theanswerlady1@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            >
            > Latigo is a leather process, usually waxy/oily making it a good choice for
            > working leather like reins and harness. It is great for armor being tough.
            > Generally available in black, brown, burgundy (more from Hide House in Napa
            > CA). Because it is water repellent, it is not very tool-able or dyeable.
            > Other leathers, (veg-tanned) are water permeable, dyeable, paintable,
            > toolable, stampable, etc. unless they are sueded or rough-out.
            >
            > yis
            > Tzipah of Clannah Drakonis
            > Bestwode Shire
            > Principality of Cynagua
            > Kingdom of the West
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: chemistbb3 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            > To: scanewcomers <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:36 pm
            > Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Confusion on colors
            >
            > Red is Red is Red. Some of the red leathers age and wear to become
            > "browner" than they started. Some folks are over sensitive and the customs
            > in some kingdoms are a bit different than in other kingdoms.
            >
            > The first belt I made was out of latigo leather. I also got some flack for
            > using a "red" leather. I just told them it was not red, but just latigo
            > leather. Since I wear a lot of red, I would then point to some part of my
            > clothes and say "this is what I call red".
            >
            > If you have a bunch for the leather and what the other folks are saying,
            > buy a bottle of brown leather dye and dye over the origional color the
            > leather.
            >
            > William
            >
            > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "o.barsukov" <o.barsukov@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > To state the obvious, I'm new to the SCA, and Uprising in Idaho this
            > year was my first event. I absolutely loved it, and since then I've been
            > working on things to improve the look of my persona and my garb.
            > >
            > > I'd gone through several no-no lists I'd found on google before I
            > started and thought I had a pretty solid grasp on what not to do. One of
            > the first things I worked on was a baldric for my sword(unsharpened and
            > all), so I avoided red and white leathers. Several members of my local
            > group saw the leather I was working with and got all over me for using red
            > leather. This is where my apparent not so solid grasp of what not to do
            > comes in.
            > >
            > > http://www.outfitterssupply.com/ShowAdditionalImg.asp?number=WLF403
            > > That's the leather I got (in person it's got a bit more of a chestnut
            > hue to it than the picture, but still close.) Is that considered red in the
            > SCA? I'd assume shades/types of red (crimson, scarlet, et al) are covered
            > in the definition of 'red', but are slight hues considered 'red' as well?
            > Perhaps it's the artist in me, but that's not 'red'.
            > >
            > > Somewhat off topic, but a member mentioned looking up Chatelaine
            > resources before I make anything more (which I did before I started
            > anything, but apparently I'm doing things wrong.) Does anyone have a pretty
            > thorough guide for new people on what not to make/avoid? I have googled for
            > a list again (this time under Chatelaine) and all I've really dug up is
            > info on how to be a Chatelaine, basic things I've already gone over, and
            > lists that don't answer the questions I have.
            > >
            > > Thanks in advance!
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Yours In Service,

            Lord Ian the Green

            http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

            Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            Nope, that s not red. I have a belt the same color. I ve never fought, never wanted to, but I still had a few people (who had known me for years when I
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 22, 2012
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              Nope, that's not red. I have a belt the same color. I've never fought, never wanted to, but I still had a few people (who had known me for years when I bought the belt) ask in obvious confusion if I was squired to someone.

              People take the whole belt and baldric thing way too far. I've seen someone go after an 11-year-old girl for wearing a white piece of rope as a belt. I mean, seriously? Not even old enough to fight, and certainly not expecting to be treated like a knight. On the other hand, SCA regs say that the insignia of a knight is an "unadorned white belt". Let me tell you, in 20 years I've seen some pretty snazzed up white belts on knights.

              Do I think knights deserve respect, and that you shouldn't wear a white belt if you aren't one? Yeah. Squire belt being red isn't even SCA wide; theres at least one household that uses blue. It's also not in SCA law, although I think it is in some kingdom laws.

              I'd say use the leather (which will probably darken and look less red over time), and get used to explaining that it's not a red squire's belt.

              Brangwayna Morgan
              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
              Lancaster, PA







              -----Original Message-----
              From: o.barsukov <o.barsukov@...>
              To: scanewcomers <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:10 pm
              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Confusion on colors




              To state the obvious, I'm new to the SCA, and Uprising in Idaho this year was my first event. I absolutely loved it, and since then I've been working on things to improve the look of my persona and my garb.

              I'd gone through several no-no lists I'd found on google before I started and thought I had a pretty solid grasp on what not to do. One of the first things I worked on was a baldric for my sword(unsharpened and all), so I avoided red and white leathers. Several members of my local group saw the leather I was working with and got all over me for using red leather. This is where my apparent not so solid grasp of what not to do comes in.

              http://www.outfitterssupply.com/ShowAdditionalImg.asp?number=WLF403
              That's the leather I got (in person it's got a bit more of a chestnut hue to it than the picture, but still close.) Is that considered red in the SCA? I'd assume shades/types of red (crimson, scarlet, et al) are covered in the definition of 'red', but are slight hues considered 'red' as well? Perhaps it's the artist in me, but that's not 'red'.

              Somewhat off topic, but a member mentioned looking up Chatelaine resources before I make anything more (which I did before I started anything, but apparently I'm doing things wrong.) Does anyone have a pretty thorough guide for new people on what not to make/avoid? I have googled for a list again (this time under Chatelaine) and all I've really dug up is info on how to be a Chatelaine, basic things I've already gone over, and lists that don't answer the questions I have.

              Thanks in advance!







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stefan li Rous
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 23, 2012
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                <<< I'd gone through several no-no lists I'd found on google before I
                started and thought I had a pretty solid grasp on what not to do. One
                of the first things I worked on was a baldric for my sword(unsharpened
                and all), so I avoided red and white leathers. Several members of my
                local group saw the leather I was working with and got all over me for
                using red leather. This is where my apparent not so solid grasp of
                what not to do comes in. >>>

                Take all such lists with a grain of salt, even the ones in my
                Florilegium files. They are written by individuals with their own
                opinions of what the SCA rules and traditions say. Perhaps reading
                multiple ones and taking the points that are in common is the way to
                go. :-)

                <<< http://www.outfitterssupply.com/ShowAdditionalImg.asp?number=WLF403
                That's the leather I got (in person it's got a bit more of a chestnut
                hue to it than the picture, but still close.) Is that considered red
                in the SCA? I'd assume shades/types of red (crimson, scarlet, et al)
                are covered in the definition of 'red', but are slight hues considered
                'red' as well? Perhaps it's the artist in me, but that's not 'red'. >>>

                The first belt I made in the SCA was a reddish brown. I got hassled by
                several people about it and overdyed it with a brown dye. Maybe I'm
                just an old curmurgeon now, but I'm much more likely to simply ignore
                them, refer them to the appropriate file(s) in the Florilegium or ask
                them who their Knight is, if they are squires. I think Ian the Green
                had a very good reply. I may appropriate it for the Florilegium. :-)

                <<< Somewhat off topic, but a member mentioned looking up Chatelaine
                resources before I make anything more (which I did before I started
                anything, but apparently I'm doing things wrong.) Does anyone have a
                pretty thorough guide for new people on what not to make/avoid? I have
                googled for a list again (this time under Chatelaine) and all I've
                really dug up is info on how to be a Chatelaine, basic things I've
                already gone over, and lists that don't answer the questions I have. >>>

                I highly recommend the Known World Handbook. A new version came out
                within the past few years and it is still fairly inexpensive. Other
                reviews, as well as ordering information can be found in this file in
                the NEWCOMERS section of the Florilegium:
                KW-Handbook-msg (12K) 11/25/10 Comments about the Known World
                Handbook.
                http://www.florilegium.org/files/NEWCOMERS/KW-Handbook-msg.html

                Also in that section are a number of articles and message files
                (collections of messages) that you might wish to read. I,
                intentionally, don't have any big, comprehensive files for beginners,
                but rather a collection of various files and articles.

                And when you've perused this section there are many more on a wide
                variety of SCA and medieval subjexts. There are about 2400 different
                files in the Florilegium, so I hope there are a few other files that
                might also interest you.

                Stefan

                --------
                THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
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