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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Lawsuit

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  • Justinos Tekton called Justin
    ... Yes, people who had been around when it happened did know, and that is probably exactly the reason you didn t hear about it. There was a huge amount of
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 29, 2012
      On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 15:20 +0000, wren378 wrote:
      > I just heard about a lawsuit against the SCA today. I joined SCA last
      > year and no one mentioned it. It came as a shock that the lawsuit had
      > been going on for 2 years when I joined and nothing was said. I
      > realize it doesn't involve the barony I was attending specifically but
      > I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an
      > organization especially if the case involves crimes against children.
      > Did everyone else know about this?


      Yes, people who had been around when it happened did know, and that is
      probably exactly the reason you didn't hear about it. There was a huge
      amount of publicity and discussion when the incident occurred, and there
      has recently been a series of official announcements because of the
      out-of-court settlement of litigation. In between, there was a period of
      nothing going on outside of a bunch of lawyers sending letters back and
      forth.

      You just happened to join in the lull between the initial incident and
      the settlement. It wasn't a conspiracy of silence, just a period in
      which the rank and file members weren't thinking about it much because
      not much newsworthy was happening at the time.

      As someone else pointed out, this was an isolated situation in which one
      person did something awful. The SCA didn't know about it until after the
      fact, and the individual was immediately booted out of the organization.
      The SCA itself was never implicated or accused in a criminal way; we
      just got caught in the broadly-cast liability net. We have more money
      than the individual who committed the crime, so we got sued instead of
      (or in addition to) him. The Board of Directors settled the lawsuit to
      avoid spending us into bankruptcy with lawyers.

      As terrible as this situation is, you have to keep in mind the fact that
      the SCA is a very large organization. We have something like 30,000 paid
      members worldwide. As with any randomly-selected group of 30,000 people
      in the human population, there are going to be a few bad apples. When we
      find them, we kick them out. This situation also led the SCA to adopt a
      strict background-check policy for children's activities leaders, and a
      "two-deep rule" for adult supervision.

      Kind regards,

      Justin

      --
      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
      Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
      fesswise reversed sable.

      justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
    • Angela Gusta, RN, BSN
      Yeah, that s been going on for a while and was just settled. Apparently the insurance companies have told the SCA screw you we re not paying so now we re
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 1, 2012
        Yeah, that's been going on for a while and was just settled. Apparently the insurance companies have told the SCA 'screw you we're not paying' so now we're suing them. What I heard was some whackjob in charge of youth something was a pedophile and tried to abuse some kids. Now most of the baronies EVERYWHERE (at least in the US) are being hit with tithing toward the settlement.

        It's not the organization.
        It's the whackjobs. They're everywhere.

        invertedarcher@...




        -----Original Message-----
        From: wren378 <wren378@...>
        To: scanewcomers <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, Feb 28, 2012 8:20 am
        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Lawsuit




        I just heard about a lawsuit against the SCA today. I joined SCA last year and no one mentioned it. It came as a shock that the lawsuit had been going on for 2 years when I joined and nothing was said. I realize it doesn't involve the barony I was attending specifically but I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an organization especially if the case involves crimes against children. Did everyone else know about this?







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Toscano
        Angela: One insurance company covered, the other did not. And, actually, the kingdoms paid, even at least one not in the U.S. Now some kingdoms asked for money
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 1, 2012
          Angela: One insurance company covered, the other did not.

          And, actually, the kingdoms paid, even at least one not in the U.S.

          Now some kingdoms asked for money from local groups. Or, the local groups
          gave some to them.

          Liam


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bambi TBNL
          Thank you Liam for clarifying what.you really are a wonderful source of info and a cool head. ... Date: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:04:36 pm To:
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 1, 2012
            Thank you Liam for clarifying what.you really are a wonderful source of info and a cool head.
            -----Original Message-----
            Date: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:04:36 pm
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            From: "Bill Toscano" <liamstliam@...>
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Lawsuit

            Angela: One insurance company covered, the other did not.

            And, actually, the kingdoms paid, even at least one not in the U.S.

            Now some kingdoms asked for money from local groups. Or, the local groups
            gave some to them.

            Liam


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Regi
            I ve had a membership card for years and also just heard about this lawsuit. Given that I don t attend many events I m not surprised I didn t hear about it.
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 12, 2012
              I've had a membership card for years and also just heard about this lawsuit. Given that I don't attend many events I'm not surprised I didn't hear about it. Given the fact that many SCA members have children at events, I doubt there was a conspiracy to keep things quiet. As mentioned before, things like this happen a LOT in all kinds of organizations. As a recently baptized Catholic (*shiver*), it's driven home for me that a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them, or associated with them, or on the outskirts of them.

              You don't have to be a member of a group to be concerned with a cause, children are targets everywhere - the store, the movies, etc. - but not being a member of the SCA (if you choose) does NOTHING about the situation you are concerned about.

              I kindly suggest that for those who agree with the sentiment "...I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an organization especially if the case involves crimes against
              children..." to help prevent situations like this, to bring awareness of child abuse issues to others, to protect children, to take child safety classes (you never know when you will be helping kids), and not worry about where you are signing your own name but protecting the ones who can't protect themselves.

              ~Raphaella (I think that's my Society name, waiting for the Heralds...)

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "wren378" <wren378@...> wrote:
              >
              > I just heard about a lawsuit against the SCA today. I joined SCA last year and no one mentioned it. It came as a shock that the lawsuit had been going on for 2 years when I joined and nothing was said. I realize it doesn't involve the barony I was attending specifically but I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an organization especially if the case involves crimes against children. Did everyone else know about this?
              >
            • Justinos Tekton called Justin
              ... All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000 paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still leaves 300
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 13, 2012
                On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them

                All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                do the right thing.

                What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.

                Justin

                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                fesswise reversed sable.

                justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
              • Ian Green
                // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do elsewhere, but there
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 13, 2012
                  // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                  protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                  elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.//

                  I take far less reasonable and prudent precautions at SCA events. I leave
                  out my stuff, open unattended and alone for hours at a time with hundreds
                  of dollars worth of stuff just laying around for the taking. To date,
                  never has anything been stolen from me at an SCA event or activity. Had my
                  stuff stolen out of my truck when I stepped away for five minutes about 6
                  years ago though.

                  As for children, no, I don't suggest you treat them the way I treat my
                  stuff. The SCA now uses the children industry standards to protect the
                  kids in the SCA. As a person who used to work in a shelter for abused and
                  neglected children for many years. I am now very happy with the standards
                  the SCA has when it comes to protecting the youth that play in the SCA.

                  What happened was terrible and wrong and the SCA took the appropriate steps
                  to ensure that situation won't happen again when the rules are followed.

                  Ian the Green

                  On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Justinos Tekton called Justin <
                  justin@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                  > > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them
                  >
                  > All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                  > paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                  > leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                  > compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                  > apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                  > The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                  > camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                  > will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                  > you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                  > do the right thing.
                  >
                  > What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                  > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                  > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.
                  >
                  >
                  > Justin
                  >
                  > --
                  > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                  > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                  > fesswise reversed sable.
                  >
                  > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  Yours In Service,

                  Lord Ian the Green

                  http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

                  Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Deena Kalbfleisch
                  Doesn t this all boil down to parents keeping an eye on their own children and not expecting the SCA to play babysitter? ... From: Ian Green
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 13, 2012
                    Doesn't this all boil down to parents keeping an eye on their own children and not expecting the SCA to play babysitter?

                    --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:


                    From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...>
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 3:37 PM


                    // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                    protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                    elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.//

                    I take far less reasonable and prudent precautions at SCA events.  I leave
                    out my stuff, open unattended and alone for hours at a time with hundreds
                    of dollars worth of stuff just laying around for the taking.  To date,
                    never has anything been stolen from me at an SCA event or activity.  Had my
                    stuff stolen out of my truck when I stepped away for five minutes about 6
                    years ago though.

                    As for children, no, I don't suggest you treat them the way I treat my
                    stuff.  The SCA now uses the children industry standards to protect the
                    kids in the SCA.  As a person who used to work in a shelter for abused and
                    neglected children for many years.  I am now very happy with the standards
                    the SCA has when it comes to protecting the youth that play in the SCA.

                    What happened was terrible and wrong and the SCA took the appropriate steps
                    to ensure that situation won't happen again when the rules are followed.

                    Ian the Green

                    On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Justinos Tekton called Justin <
                    justin@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                    > > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them
                    >
                    > All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                    > paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                    > leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                    > compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                    > apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                    > The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                    > camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                    > will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                    > you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                    > do the right thing.
                    >
                    > What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                    > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                    > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.
                    >
                    >
                    > Justin
                    >
                    > --
                    > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                    > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                    > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                    > fesswise reversed sable.
                    >
                    > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                    >

                    >



                    --
                    Yours In Service,

                    Lord Ian the Green

                    http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

                    Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ian Green
                    Not really. It boils down to mutually helping one another out as a chivalrous society might do. But with certain key provisions to ensure that those who are
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 13, 2012
                      Not really.

                      It boils down to mutually helping one another out as a chivalrous society
                      might do. But with certain key provisions to ensure that those who are
                      helping one another out keep one another honest. For example the two deep
                      rule.

                      Two adults not related to one another supervising. This way adults can
                      take turns taking care of the kids so all the adults can go and do the
                      things they love to do in the SCA but that the kids, well, don't like.

                      Also the people who volunteer to work with the kids as an officer must get
                      a background check. This keeps people with a record of not so nice things
                      with kids or adults, don't get a chance to have a veritable buffet served
                      up to them. It is cheap, simple and due diligence. After all we have kids
                      in the SCA and we have people who like working with kids and setting up
                      specifically kids activities in specifically kid palatable ways. This is a
                      good things. And parents have to come check in on their kids. Again of
                      course the two deep rule applies.

                      This is good for the kids because they get to learn and explore in ways
                      that are more fun for them. While every parent knows how to work with
                      their kids at home, it is a different story when it comes to planned
                      activities with many and several kids. Sure the parent needs to be
                      involved but really we send our kids to school to be taught by
                      professionals because not all parents can do that stuff.

                      It isn't about baby sitting and really it never was. It was and is about
                      making the SCA accessible to everyone, including the kids. And doing so in
                      a safe environment.

                      Just my thoughts,

                      Ian the Green

                      On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Deena Kalbfleisch <deena_kalb@...>wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Doesn't this all boil down to parents keeping an eye on their own children
                      > and not expecting the SCA to play babysitter?
                      >
                      > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit
                      > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 3:37 PM
                      >
                      >
                      > // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                      > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                      > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.//
                      >
                      > I take far less reasonable and prudent precautions at SCA events. I leave
                      > out my stuff, open unattended and alone for hours at a time with hundreds
                      > of dollars worth of stuff just laying around for the taking. To date,
                      > never has anything been stolen from me at an SCA event or activity. Had my
                      > stuff stolen out of my truck when I stepped away for five minutes about 6
                      > years ago though.
                      >
                      > As for children, no, I don't suggest you treat them the way I treat my
                      > stuff. The SCA now uses the children industry standards to protect the
                      > kids in the SCA. As a person who used to work in a shelter for abused and
                      > neglected children for many years. I am now very happy with the standards
                      > the SCA has when it comes to protecting the youth that play in the SCA.
                      >
                      > What happened was terrible and wrong and the SCA took the appropriate steps
                      > to ensure that situation won't happen again when the rules are followed.
                      >
                      > Ian the Green
                      >
                      > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Justinos Tekton called Justin <
                      > justin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                      > > > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them
                      > >
                      > > All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                      > > paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                      > > leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                      > > compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                      > > apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                      > > The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                      > > camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                      > > will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                      > > you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                      > > do the right thing.
                      > >
                      > > What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                      > > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                      > > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Justin
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                      > > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                      > > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                      > > fesswise reversed sable.
                      > >
                      > > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Yours In Service,
                      >
                      > Lord Ian the Green
                      >
                      > http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/
                      >
                      > Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      Yours In Service,

                      Lord Ian the Green

                      http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

                      Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Deena Kalbfleisch
                      Well there you go........ ... From: Ian Green Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Date:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 14, 2012
                        Well there you go........

                        --- On Wed, 3/14/12, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:


                        From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...>
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 12:08 AM


                        Not really.

                        It boils down to mutually helping one another out as a chivalrous society
                        might do.  But with certain key provisions to ensure that those who are
                        helping one another out keep one another honest.  For example the two deep
                        rule.

                        Two adults not related to one another supervising.  This way adults can
                        take turns taking care of the kids so all the adults can go and do the
                        things they love to do in the SCA but that the kids, well, don't like.

                        Also the people who volunteer to work with the kids as an officer must get
                        a background check.  This keeps people with a record of not so nice things
                        with kids or adults, don't get a chance to have a veritable buffet served
                        up to them.  It is cheap, simple and due diligence.  After all we have kids
                        in the SCA and we have people who like working with kids and setting up
                        specifically kids activities in specifically kid palatable ways.  This is a
                        good things.  And parents have to come check in on their kids.  Again of
                        course the two deep rule applies.

                        This is good for the kids because they get to learn and explore in ways
                        that are more fun for them.  While every parent knows how to work with
                        their kids at home, it is a different story when it comes to planned
                        activities with many and several kids.  Sure the parent needs to be
                        involved but really we send our kids to school to be taught by
                        professionals because not all parents can do that stuff.

                        It isn't about baby sitting and really it never was.  It was and is about
                        making the SCA accessible to everyone, including the kids.  And doing so in
                        a safe environment.

                        Just my thoughts,

                        Ian the Green

                        On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Deena Kalbfleisch <deena_kalb@...>wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > Doesn't this all boil down to parents keeping an eye on their own children
                        > and not expecting the SCA to play babysitter?
                        >
                        > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...>
                        > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit
                        > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 3:37 PM
                        >
                        >
                        > // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                        > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                        > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.//
                        >
                        > I take far less reasonable and prudent precautions at SCA events.  I leave
                        > out my stuff, open unattended and alone for hours at a time with hundreds
                        > of dollars worth of stuff just laying around for the taking.  To date,
                        > never has anything been stolen from me at an SCA event or activity.  Had my
                        > stuff stolen out of my truck when I stepped away for five minutes about 6
                        > years ago though.
                        >
                        > As for children, no, I don't suggest you treat them the way I treat my
                        > stuff.  The SCA now uses the children industry standards to protect the
                        > kids in the SCA.  As a person who used to work in a shelter for abused and
                        > neglected children for many years.  I am now very happy with the standards
                        > the SCA has when it comes to protecting the youth that play in the SCA.
                        >
                        > What happened was terrible and wrong and the SCA took the appropriate steps
                        > to ensure that situation won't happen again when the rules are followed.
                        >
                        > Ian the Green
                        >
                        > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Justinos Tekton called Justin <
                        > justin@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                        > > > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them
                        > >
                        > > All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                        > > paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                        > > leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                        > > compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                        > > apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                        > > The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                        > > camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                        > > will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                        > > you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                        > > do the right thing.
                        > >
                        > > What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                        > > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                        > > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Justin
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                        > > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                        > > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                        > > fesswise reversed sable.
                        > >
                        > > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Yours In Service,
                        >
                        > Lord Ian the Green
                        >
                        > http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/
                        >
                        > Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >

                        >



                        --
                        Yours In Service,

                        Lord Ian the Green

                        http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

                        Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links





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