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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Lawsuit

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  • Bill Toscano
    Hi, Wren. As someone who has been involved in the issue on a couple of levels., I will be happy to comment briefly explain more thoroughly to you privately.
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 28 7:51 AM
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      Hi, Wren.

      As someone who has been involved in the issue on a couple of levels., I
      will be happy to comment briefly explain more thoroughly to you privately.

      In answer to your final question, this has been going on for the better
      part of a decade, particularly here in the East, where it happened. . It is
      not the only one the SCA has been involved in, and it has resulted in major
      changes in the way the SCA works with young people.

      While it's a horrible thing, it is not uncommon in organizations that
      involve youth, such as the YMCA and scouts.

      There are thousands upon thousands of people in the SCA, and we're looking
      at a very, very small number here.

      Information on the settlement is here --
      http://www.sca.org/BOD/announcements/settlement.html

      It is worth reading.

      More to come.

      Liam


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • chemistbb3
      Yes, we have received some updates for Corporate in regards to the lawsuit for a while. As you can understand from the fact that children were involved, the
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 29 3:50 PM
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        Yes, we have received some updates for Corporate in regards to the lawsuit for a while. As you can understand from the fact that children were involved, the information was general in nature.

        Per the information that was released, this was an isolated incident involving one individual and did not occur at an official SCA function but was at a fuction organised by that individual.

        William

        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "wren378" <wren378@...> wrote:
        >
        > I just heard about a lawsuit against the SCA today. I joined SCA last year and no one mentioned it. It came as a shock that the lawsuit had been going on for 2 years when I joined and nothing was said. I realize it doesn't involve the barony I was attending specifically but I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an organization especially if the case involves crimes against children. Did everyone else know about this?
        >
      • Bambi TBNL
        Quite frankly , Wren, if you joined last year but heard nothing about ir, i m surprised that you did not. It was being at least discussed in general terms in
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 29 4:13 PM
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          Quite frankly , Wren,
          if you joined last year but heard nothing about ir, i m surprised that you did not. It was being at least discussed in general terms in newsletters, at meetings, held both regularly and at unevent and other gatherings where the legal and organizational workings of the organization go on. Something so important to you as knowing every about an organization you are going to sign your good name to, might be better researched at gatherings are where the nitty gritty gets discussed an decided. Events like balls, tournaments and simposiums are rarely business or organizational meetings.
          i understand that it is very easy to simply send your check to milpitas because you had a great time at a couple of events and want to support all the fun, but if other things are important to you, visiting local meetings, attending unevent, reading the newsletters, and assisting in the mechanics of n organization is where you will be most informed. We are n all volunteer organization. You get out what you put in.
          -----Original Message-----
          Date: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 6:50:33 pm
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          From: "chemistbb3" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit

          Yes, we have received some updates for Corporate in regards to the lawsuit for a while. As you can understand from the fact that children were involved, the information was general in nature.

          Per the information that was released, this was an isolated incident involving one individual and did not occur at an official SCA function but was at a fuction organised by that individual.

          William

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "wren378" <wren378@...> wrote:
          >
          > I just heard about a lawsuit against the SCA today. I joined SCA last year and no one mentioned it. It came as a shock that the lawsuit had been going on for 2 years when I joined and nothing was said. I realize it doesn't involve the barony I was attending specifically but I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an organization especially if the case involves crimes against children. Did everyone else know about this?
          >
        • Justinos Tekton called Justin
          ... Yes, people who had been around when it happened did know, and that is probably exactly the reason you didn t hear about it. There was a huge amount of
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 29 9:45 PM
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            On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 15:20 +0000, wren378 wrote:
            > I just heard about a lawsuit against the SCA today. I joined SCA last
            > year and no one mentioned it. It came as a shock that the lawsuit had
            > been going on for 2 years when I joined and nothing was said. I
            > realize it doesn't involve the barony I was attending specifically but
            > I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an
            > organization especially if the case involves crimes against children.
            > Did everyone else know about this?


            Yes, people who had been around when it happened did know, and that is
            probably exactly the reason you didn't hear about it. There was a huge
            amount of publicity and discussion when the incident occurred, and there
            has recently been a series of official announcements because of the
            out-of-court settlement of litigation. In between, there was a period of
            nothing going on outside of a bunch of lawyers sending letters back and
            forth.

            You just happened to join in the lull between the initial incident and
            the settlement. It wasn't a conspiracy of silence, just a period in
            which the rank and file members weren't thinking about it much because
            not much newsworthy was happening at the time.

            As someone else pointed out, this was an isolated situation in which one
            person did something awful. The SCA didn't know about it until after the
            fact, and the individual was immediately booted out of the organization.
            The SCA itself was never implicated or accused in a criminal way; we
            just got caught in the broadly-cast liability net. We have more money
            than the individual who committed the crime, so we got sued instead of
            (or in addition to) him. The Board of Directors settled the lawsuit to
            avoid spending us into bankruptcy with lawyers.

            As terrible as this situation is, you have to keep in mind the fact that
            the SCA is a very large organization. We have something like 30,000 paid
            members worldwide. As with any randomly-selected group of 30,000 people
            in the human population, there are going to be a few bad apples. When we
            find them, we kick them out. This situation also led the SCA to adopt a
            strict background-check policy for children's activities leaders, and a
            "two-deep rule" for adult supervision.

            Kind regards,

            Justin

            --
            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
            Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
            fesswise reversed sable.

            justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
          • Angela Gusta, RN, BSN
            Yeah, that s been going on for a while and was just settled. Apparently the insurance companies have told the SCA screw you we re not paying so now we re
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 1, 2012
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              Yeah, that's been going on for a while and was just settled. Apparently the insurance companies have told the SCA 'screw you we're not paying' so now we're suing them. What I heard was some whackjob in charge of youth something was a pedophile and tried to abuse some kids. Now most of the baronies EVERYWHERE (at least in the US) are being hit with tithing toward the settlement.

              It's not the organization.
              It's the whackjobs. They're everywhere.

              invertedarcher@...




              -----Original Message-----
              From: wren378 <wren378@...>
              To: scanewcomers <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Feb 28, 2012 8:20 am
              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Lawsuit




              I just heard about a lawsuit against the SCA today. I joined SCA last year and no one mentioned it. It came as a shock that the lawsuit had been going on for 2 years when I joined and nothing was said. I realize it doesn't involve the barony I was attending specifically but I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an organization especially if the case involves crimes against children. Did everyone else know about this?







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bill Toscano
              Angela: One insurance company covered, the other did not. And, actually, the kingdoms paid, even at least one not in the U.S. Now some kingdoms asked for money
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 1, 2012
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                Angela: One insurance company covered, the other did not.

                And, actually, the kingdoms paid, even at least one not in the U.S.

                Now some kingdoms asked for money from local groups. Or, the local groups
                gave some to them.

                Liam


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bambi TBNL
                Thank you Liam for clarifying what.you really are a wonderful source of info and a cool head. ... Date: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:04:36 pm To:
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 1, 2012
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                  Thank you Liam for clarifying what.you really are a wonderful source of info and a cool head.
                  -----Original Message-----
                  Date: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:04:36 pm
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  From: "Bill Toscano" <liamstliam@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Lawsuit

                  Angela: One insurance company covered, the other did not.

                  And, actually, the kingdoms paid, even at least one not in the U.S.

                  Now some kingdoms asked for money from local groups. Or, the local groups
                  gave some to them.

                  Liam


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Regi
                  I ve had a membership card for years and also just heard about this lawsuit. Given that I don t attend many events I m not surprised I didn t hear about it.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 12, 2012
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                    I've had a membership card for years and also just heard about this lawsuit. Given that I don't attend many events I'm not surprised I didn't hear about it. Given the fact that many SCA members have children at events, I doubt there was a conspiracy to keep things quiet. As mentioned before, things like this happen a LOT in all kinds of organizations. As a recently baptized Catholic (*shiver*), it's driven home for me that a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them, or associated with them, or on the outskirts of them.

                    You don't have to be a member of a group to be concerned with a cause, children are targets everywhere - the store, the movies, etc. - but not being a member of the SCA (if you choose) does NOTHING about the situation you are concerned about.

                    I kindly suggest that for those who agree with the sentiment "...I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an organization especially if the case involves crimes against
                    children..." to help prevent situations like this, to bring awareness of child abuse issues to others, to protect children, to take child safety classes (you never know when you will be helping kids), and not worry about where you are signing your own name but protecting the ones who can't protect themselves.

                    ~Raphaella (I think that's my Society name, waiting for the Heralds...)

                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "wren378" <wren378@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I just heard about a lawsuit against the SCA today. I joined SCA last year and no one mentioned it. It came as a shock that the lawsuit had been going on for 2 years when I joined and nothing was said. I realize it doesn't involve the barony I was attending specifically but I want all the facts before I decide to sign my name to an organization especially if the case involves crimes against children. Did everyone else know about this?
                    >
                  • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                    ... All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000 paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still leaves 300
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 13, 2012
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                      On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                      > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them

                      All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                      paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                      leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                      compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                      apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                      The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                      camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                      will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                      you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                      do the right thing.

                      What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                      protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                      elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.

                      Justin

                      --
                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                      Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                      fesswise reversed sable.

                      justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                    • Ian Green
                      // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do elsewhere, but there
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 13, 2012
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                        // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                        protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                        elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.//

                        I take far less reasonable and prudent precautions at SCA events. I leave
                        out my stuff, open unattended and alone for hours at a time with hundreds
                        of dollars worth of stuff just laying around for the taking. To date,
                        never has anything been stolen from me at an SCA event or activity. Had my
                        stuff stolen out of my truck when I stepped away for five minutes about 6
                        years ago though.

                        As for children, no, I don't suggest you treat them the way I treat my
                        stuff. The SCA now uses the children industry standards to protect the
                        kids in the SCA. As a person who used to work in a shelter for abused and
                        neglected children for many years. I am now very happy with the standards
                        the SCA has when it comes to protecting the youth that play in the SCA.

                        What happened was terrible and wrong and the SCA took the appropriate steps
                        to ensure that situation won't happen again when the rules are followed.

                        Ian the Green

                        On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Justinos Tekton called Justin <
                        justin@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                        > > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them
                        >
                        > All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                        > paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                        > leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                        > compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                        > apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                        > The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                        > camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                        > will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                        > you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                        > do the right thing.
                        >
                        > What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                        > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                        > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.
                        >
                        >
                        > Justin
                        >
                        > --
                        > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                        > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                        > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                        > fesswise reversed sable.
                        >
                        > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Yours In Service,

                        Lord Ian the Green

                        http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

                        Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Deena Kalbfleisch
                        Doesn t this all boil down to parents keeping an eye on their own children and not expecting the SCA to play babysitter? ... From: Ian Green
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 13, 2012
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                          Doesn't this all boil down to parents keeping an eye on their own children and not expecting the SCA to play babysitter?

                          --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:


                          From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...>
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 3:37 PM


                          // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                          protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                          elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.//

                          I take far less reasonable and prudent precautions at SCA events.  I leave
                          out my stuff, open unattended and alone for hours at a time with hundreds
                          of dollars worth of stuff just laying around for the taking.  To date,
                          never has anything been stolen from me at an SCA event or activity.  Had my
                          stuff stolen out of my truck when I stepped away for five minutes about 6
                          years ago though.

                          As for children, no, I don't suggest you treat them the way I treat my
                          stuff.  The SCA now uses the children industry standards to protect the
                          kids in the SCA.  As a person who used to work in a shelter for abused and
                          neglected children for many years.  I am now very happy with the standards
                          the SCA has when it comes to protecting the youth that play in the SCA.

                          What happened was terrible and wrong and the SCA took the appropriate steps
                          to ensure that situation won't happen again when the rules are followed.

                          Ian the Green

                          On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Justinos Tekton called Justin <
                          justin@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                          > > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them
                          >
                          > All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                          > paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                          > leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                          > compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                          > apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                          > The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                          > camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                          > will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                          > you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                          > do the right thing.
                          >
                          > What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                          > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                          > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.
                          >
                          >
                          > Justin
                          >
                          > --
                          > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                          > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                          > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                          > fesswise reversed sable.
                          >
                          > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                          >

                          >



                          --
                          Yours In Service,

                          Lord Ian the Green

                          http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

                          Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ian Green
                          Not really. It boils down to mutually helping one another out as a chivalrous society might do. But with certain key provisions to ensure that those who are
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 13, 2012
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                            Not really.

                            It boils down to mutually helping one another out as a chivalrous society
                            might do. But with certain key provisions to ensure that those who are
                            helping one another out keep one another honest. For example the two deep
                            rule.

                            Two adults not related to one another supervising. This way adults can
                            take turns taking care of the kids so all the adults can go and do the
                            things they love to do in the SCA but that the kids, well, don't like.

                            Also the people who volunteer to work with the kids as an officer must get
                            a background check. This keeps people with a record of not so nice things
                            with kids or adults, don't get a chance to have a veritable buffet served
                            up to them. It is cheap, simple and due diligence. After all we have kids
                            in the SCA and we have people who like working with kids and setting up
                            specifically kids activities in specifically kid palatable ways. This is a
                            good things. And parents have to come check in on their kids. Again of
                            course the two deep rule applies.

                            This is good for the kids because they get to learn and explore in ways
                            that are more fun for them. While every parent knows how to work with
                            their kids at home, it is a different story when it comes to planned
                            activities with many and several kids. Sure the parent needs to be
                            involved but really we send our kids to school to be taught by
                            professionals because not all parents can do that stuff.

                            It isn't about baby sitting and really it never was. It was and is about
                            making the SCA accessible to everyone, including the kids. And doing so in
                            a safe environment.

                            Just my thoughts,

                            Ian the Green

                            On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Deena Kalbfleisch <deena_kalb@...>wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > Doesn't this all boil down to parents keeping an eye on their own children
                            > and not expecting the SCA to play babysitter?
                            >
                            > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...>
                            > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit
                            > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 3:37 PM
                            >
                            >
                            > // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                            > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                            > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.//
                            >
                            > I take far less reasonable and prudent precautions at SCA events. I leave
                            > out my stuff, open unattended and alone for hours at a time with hundreds
                            > of dollars worth of stuff just laying around for the taking. To date,
                            > never has anything been stolen from me at an SCA event or activity. Had my
                            > stuff stolen out of my truck when I stepped away for five minutes about 6
                            > years ago though.
                            >
                            > As for children, no, I don't suggest you treat them the way I treat my
                            > stuff. The SCA now uses the children industry standards to protect the
                            > kids in the SCA. As a person who used to work in a shelter for abused and
                            > neglected children for many years. I am now very happy with the standards
                            > the SCA has when it comes to protecting the youth that play in the SCA.
                            >
                            > What happened was terrible and wrong and the SCA took the appropriate steps
                            > to ensure that situation won't happen again when the rules are followed.
                            >
                            > Ian the Green
                            >
                            > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Justinos Tekton called Justin <
                            > justin@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                            > > > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them
                            > >
                            > > All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                            > > paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                            > > leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                            > > compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                            > > apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                            > > The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                            > > camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                            > > will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                            > > you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                            > > do the right thing.
                            > >
                            > > What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                            > > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                            > > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Justin
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                            > > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                            > > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                            > > fesswise reversed sable.
                            > >
                            > > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Yours In Service,
                            >
                            > Lord Ian the Green
                            >
                            > http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/
                            >
                            > Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            Yours In Service,

                            Lord Ian the Green

                            http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

                            Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Deena Kalbfleisch
                            Well there you go........ ... From: Ian Green Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Date:
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 14, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Well there you go........

                              --- On Wed, 3/14/12, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:


                              From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...>
                              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit
                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 12:08 AM


                              Not really.

                              It boils down to mutually helping one another out as a chivalrous society
                              might do.  But with certain key provisions to ensure that those who are
                              helping one another out keep one another honest.  For example the two deep
                              rule.

                              Two adults not related to one another supervising.  This way adults can
                              take turns taking care of the kids so all the adults can go and do the
                              things they love to do in the SCA but that the kids, well, don't like.

                              Also the people who volunteer to work with the kids as an officer must get
                              a background check.  This keeps people with a record of not so nice things
                              with kids or adults, don't get a chance to have a veritable buffet served
                              up to them.  It is cheap, simple and due diligence.  After all we have kids
                              in the SCA and we have people who like working with kids and setting up
                              specifically kids activities in specifically kid palatable ways.  This is a
                              good things.  And parents have to come check in on their kids.  Again of
                              course the two deep rule applies.

                              This is good for the kids because they get to learn and explore in ways
                              that are more fun for them.  While every parent knows how to work with
                              their kids at home, it is a different story when it comes to planned
                              activities with many and several kids.  Sure the parent needs to be
                              involved but really we send our kids to school to be taught by
                              professionals because not all parents can do that stuff.

                              It isn't about baby sitting and really it never was.  It was and is about
                              making the SCA accessible to everyone, including the kids.  And doing so in
                              a safe environment.

                              Just my thoughts,

                              Ian the Green

                              On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Deena Kalbfleisch <deena_kalb@...>wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Doesn't this all boil down to parents keeping an eye on their own children
                              > and not expecting the SCA to play babysitter?
                              >
                              > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Ian Green <ianthegreen01@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Lawsuit
                              > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 3:37 PM
                              >
                              >
                              > // What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                              > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                              > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.//
                              >
                              > I take far less reasonable and prudent precautions at SCA events.  I leave
                              > out my stuff, open unattended and alone for hours at a time with hundreds
                              > of dollars worth of stuff just laying around for the taking.  To date,
                              > never has anything been stolen from me at an SCA event or activity.  Had my
                              > stuff stolen out of my truck when I stepped away for five minutes about 6
                              > years ago though.
                              >
                              > As for children, no, I don't suggest you treat them the way I treat my
                              > stuff.  The SCA now uses the children industry standards to protect the
                              > kids in the SCA.  As a person who used to work in a shelter for abused and
                              > neglected children for many years.  I am now very happy with the standards
                              > the SCA has when it comes to protecting the youth that play in the SCA.
                              >
                              > What happened was terrible and wrong and the SCA took the appropriate steps
                              > to ensure that situation won't happen again when the rules are followed.
                              >
                              > Ian the Green
                              >
                              > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Justinos Tekton called Justin <
                              > justin@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On Mon, 2012-03-12 at 22:57 +0000, Regi wrote:
                              > > > a lot of GOOD organizations have a few BAD people in them
                              > >
                              > > All organizations have a few bad apples in them. There are about 30,000
                              > > paid members of the SCA. Even if 99% of them are good people, that still
                              > > leaves 300 not-so-good. The SCA has a very high good-to-bad ratio
                              > > compared to the rest of the world, in my opinion, but the number of bad
                              > > apples is still greater than zero. This is true of theft issues, too.
                              > > The vast majority of the time, you can accidentally leave an expensive
                              > > camera or cell phone, or even your wallet, at an SCA event, and someone
                              > > will take great pains to return it to you. On rare occasions, though,
                              > > you will happen to encounter a dishonest or desperate person who doesn't
                              > > do the right thing.
                              > >
                              > > What this means is that you take reasonable and prudent precautions to
                              > > protect yourself and your loved ones in the SCA, just as you do
                              > > elsewhere, but there is no need to panic.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Justin
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                              > > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                              > > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                              > > fesswise reversed sable.
                              > >
                              > > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Yours In Service,
                              >
                              > Lord Ian the Green
                              >
                              > http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/
                              >
                              > Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >

                              >



                              --
                              Yours In Service,

                              Lord Ian the Green

                              http://sites.google.com/site/ianthegreen01/

                              Ian's Flickr account <http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianthegreen/>


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