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Role for Sage?

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  • Tom
    What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don t have enough facial hair to pass as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords with ye
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 16, 2011
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      What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have enough facial hair to pass as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords with ye whippersnappers.
    • publisher@lilleypress.com
      Depends on what you like doing, the good thing about the SCA is you can do pretty much any aspect you wish. Lord Cu Allaidh Who s laptop died and thus lacks
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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        Depends on what you like doing, the good thing about the SCA is you can do
        pretty much any aspect you
        wish.

        Lord Cu Allaidh
        Who's laptop died and thus lacks his usual rambling sig

        Original Message:
        -----------------
        From: Tom thickeymd@...
        Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 05:31:08 -0000
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?


        What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have
        enough facial hair to pass
        as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords with ye whippersnappers.



        --------------------------------------------------------------------
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      • Bill Toscano
        I would recommend archery or thrown weapons as martial activities. What do you like to do. SCA groups are always looking for cooks, and there are people who
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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          I would recommend archery or thrown weapons as martial activities.

          What do you like to do. SCA groups are always looking for cooks, and there
          are people who can teach you most arts and sciences.

          I am a service-track guy, so I tend to favor the "carrying things and making
          things go" approach.

          The SCA is a volunteer organization and runs on people like that.



          On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Tom <thickeymd@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have
          > enough facial hair to pass as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords
          > with ye whippersnappers.
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom Hickey
          Hmmm.  Food for thought!  Thank you! From: publisher@lilleypress.com To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 17,
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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            Hmmm.  Food for thought!  Thank you!


            From: "publisher@..." <publisher@...>
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:47 AM
            Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?


             
            Depends on what you like doing, the good thing about the SCA is you can do
            pretty much any aspect you
            wish.

            Lord Cu Allaidh
            Who's laptop died and thus lacks his usual rambling sig

            Original Message:
            -----------------
            From: Tom thickeymd@...
            Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 05:31:08 -0000
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?

            What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have
            enough facial hair to pass
            as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords with ye whippersnappers.

            ----------------------------------------------------------
            mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology -
            http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tom Hickey
            I make stuff.  This is a Nine Men s Morris board I just finished.  I could teach people to play it. Archery sounds good! Thank you! From: Bill Toscano
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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              I make stuff.  This is a Nine Men's Morris board I just finished.  I could teach people to play it.
              Archery sounds good!
              Thank you!

              From: Bill Toscano <liamstliam@...>
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:47 AM
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?

              I would recommend archery or thrown weapons as martial activities.

              What do you like to do. SCA groups are always looking for cooks, and there
              are people who can teach you most arts and sciences.

              I am a service-track guy, so I tend to favor the "carrying things and making
              things go" approach.

              The SCA is a volunteer organization and runs on people like that.



              On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Tom <thickeymd@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have
              > enough facial hair to pass as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords
              > with ye whippersnappers.
              >

              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • cjburke_99
              Your persona can be whatever you want - you don t have to match the stereotypical physical attributes of the people of a given time and/or place to model your
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                Your persona can be whatever you want - you don't have to match the stereotypical physical attributes of the people of a given time and/or place to model your persona upon that. Take your time, find a time and place that suits you, and go from there.

                As for "bashing swords with young whippersnappers" goes, if you are interested in combat, consider fencing. As one who started this on the upper end of middle-age myself, I've had a lot of fun with a rapier in my hand, and I intend to continue doing so.

                There's no shortage of activities to try out - music (voice, instrumental, composition), wood craft, cooking, metal working, dancing, acting, historical research, sewing, weaving, scrbal arts, heraldy, brewing - and those are just some of the ones I've sampled over the past 2 years.

                The key thing is, don't wait for activities to come to you. Seek them out.


                Yours in Service,
                Dragos Pelikanos
                "Let there be music! Let there be dancing!"


                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <thickeymd@...> wrote:
                >
                > What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have enough facial hair to pass as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords with ye whippersnappers.
                >
              • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                ... That s what I do, too, at age 48. Volunteer to serve feast, work at Troll (entry gate), set up chairs and tables, serve as a Herald at court, or wash
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                  On Mon, 2011-10-17 at 11:47 -0400, Bill Toscano wrote:
                  > I am a service-track guy, so I tend to favor the "carrying things and
                  > making things go" approach.


                  That's what I do, too, at age 48. Volunteer to serve feast, work at
                  Troll (entry gate), set up chairs and tables, serve as a Herald at
                  court, or wash dishes, and you have undying gratitude from others, and
                  -- if you do it right -- a lot of fun along the way. Many hands make
                  light work! I do a lot of what we call "Department of Public Works",
                  which is to say, I lead the team that handles site logistics for our
                  events. And I do dishes. I've been a Seneschal (effectively, chapter
                  president), and I'm part of the first aid team at quite a few events.
                  I'm not naturally athletic, so I'll never be a champion fighter,
                  although I do occasionally fight. None of the administrative jobs I do
                  require physical strength, and in fact, your age often brings a patience
                  and wisdom that will serve you well in administrative roles.

                  To me, what you do as a volunteer is (usually) separate from your
                  persona choice. I'm a traveling tinker from Constantinople, who made his
                  fortune as a sewer contractor (during my time period, the wealthy in
                  Constantinople had indoor toilets!). I retired young and decided to
                  travel to western Europe with my bride, to see the things my
                  dearly-departed father saw in his travels. My persona is rich -- hey,
                  it's my imaginary life, might as well be rich! -- and actually has a
                  title of nobility from one of the Emperor's assistant deputy flunkies
                  for fixing the palace sewers. But while traveling, I pass as a simple
                  tinker to avoid attracting robbers. My point, though, is that you can do
                  whatever volunteer things you want to do, regardless of whether they fit
                  your persona. So don't worry too much about making them match up.

                  You can contribute a lot, and have fun, in the non-martial arts. Perhaps
                  you are a skilled musician or singer, or you can learn calligraphy and
                  illumination, or bookbinding, or brewing, or making stained glass, or
                  woodcarving, or silversmithing, or....well, you get the idea. :-)
                  Remember, the Norse were fierce warriors, but they also needed cooks and
                  blacksmiths and jewelers. As in real medieval life, combat is only one
                  part of the SCA.

                  Your persona doesn't have to reflect what you are physically able to do
                  *now* in the SCA. Perhaps you are a *former* carpenter, and you have
                  passed the business to your sons. Perhaps you always aspired to
                  knighthood but never attracted the King's attention, so you instead make
                  your (imaginary) living by fletching arrows for the King's troops. And
                  so on....it's limited only by your imagination, and, as others have
                  suggested, what you'd like to do in the SCA.

                  Welcome!

                  Justin

                  --
                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                  fesswise reversed sable.

                  justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                • D'vorah bint al-Attar
                  Query re: Role/persona for a middle-aged guy with light facial hair and upper body strength. ACTIVITIES: Martial: Rapier, archery, thrown weapons, weapon
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                    Query re: Role/persona for a middle-aged guy with light facial hair and upper body strength.

                    ACTIVITIES:

                    Martial: Rapier, archery, thrown weapons, weapon making.
                    Physical, non-martial: Dancing.
                    Service: Cooking, carrying, helping others with their camp/tent setup, learning to sign and signing Court for the hard of hearing/deaf.
                    Arts & Sciences: Unlimited. Learn about a new art/science every month until you find one or two that really fascinate you, and focus there. Then keep learning about more things, in case something else catches your fancy.

                    PERSONAE:

                    Lower-order monk or friar, or itinerant preacher (non-ordained clergy)
                    Farmer (vegetable crops or livestock)
                    Mason (you won't have to actually construct stone buildings at events, I promise)
                    Beggar (no need to spend a lot on garb or accoutrements)
                    Herald (requires little physical strength, just a good voice or a knack with research)
                    Idle rich (will require more expenditures for garb and encampment accoutrements)
                    Seneschal/chatelain (of a noble's household, not of an SCA kingdom/barony/shire -- basically, you'd run the household/fiefdom, rather than having a decided role in SCA affairs, unless you want to volunteer at that level, too)
                    Shepherd
                    Traveling merchant or trader (happens a LOT in the SCA, but hey, at least you've got good company)
                    Writer of romances (I mean, Edifying Morality Tales… yes, they had these)
                    Cook, brewer, vintner
                    Armorer (if this interests you, perhaps learn at least a little blacksmithing)
                    Fisher, hunter
                    Purveyor of relics and/or curiosities
                    Smith (silver/gold, or iron/'black')
                    Farrier/horseman
                    Fletcher (would help if you also learned some archery)
                    Weaver, sewer, clothier, dyer (learn something about fiber arts)
                    Perfumier, spice blender/merchant
                    Mercenary (learn some type of martial activity)
                    Houndsman (learn about period species of dogs used for hunting, racing, or home protection)
                    Leatherworker (shoes, clothing, armor, miscellaneous useful objects)
                    Animal husbandry (learn about period species of livestock and such)
                    Chandler

                    Also, look into various areas of the world (and time periods) and find one whose philosophies, culture, language, or garb interest you the most. Place your persona there, and then figure out what your persona does for a living. Think about what your persona does when NOT attending these big group fairs/events that are, essentially, not a way of life but a deviation from regular life.

                    On 17 Oct 2011, at 11:34 AM, Tom Hickey wrote:

                    > I make stuff. This is a Nine Men's Morris board I just finished. I could teach people to play it.
                    > Archery sounds good!
                    > Thank you!
                    >
                    > From: Bill Toscano <liamstliam@...>
                    > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:47 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                    >
                    > I would recommend archery or thrown weapons as martial activities.
                    >
                    > What do you like to do. SCA groups are always looking for cooks, and there
                    > are people who can teach you most arts and sciences.
                    >
                    > I am a service-track guy, so I tend to favor the "carrying things and making
                    > things go" approach.
                    >
                    > The SCA is a volunteer organization and runs on people like that.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Tom <thickeymd@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> **
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have
                    >> enough facial hair to pass as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords
                    >> with ye whippersnappers.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    D'vorah bint al-Attar
                    Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                    dvorah@...
                    http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
                    Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
                    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                  • Tom Hickey
                    Thank you for a very thoughtful, thorough reply! - Tom From: cjburke_99 To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                      Thank you for a very thoughtful, thorough reply!
                      - Tom

                      From: cjburke_99 <cjburke@...>
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 10:41 AM
                      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Role for Sage?


                       
                      Your persona can be whatever you want - you don't have to match the stereotypical physical attributes of the people of a given time and/or place to model your persona upon that. Take your time, find a time and place that suits you, and go from there.

                      As for "bashing swords with young whippersnappers" goes, if you are interested in combat, consider fencing. As one who started this on the upper end of middle-age myself, I've had a lot of fun with a rapier in my hand, and I intend to continue doing so.

                      There's no shortage of activities to try out - music (voice, instrumental, composition), wood craft, cooking, metal working, dancing, acting, historical research, sewing, weaving, scrbal arts, heraldy, brewing - and those are just some of the ones I've sampled over the past 2 years.

                      The key thing is, don't wait for activities to come to you. Seek them out.

                      Yours in Service,
                      Dragos Pelikanos
                      "Let there be music! Let there be dancing!"

                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <thickeymd@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have enough facial hair to pass as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords with ye whippersnappers.
                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tom Hickey
                      Thanks a lot, Justin. Just the kind of insights and perspective I was looking for! - Tom From: Justinos Tekton called Justin To:
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                        Thanks a lot, Justin. Just the kind of insights and perspective I was looking for!
                        - Tom

                        From: Justinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...>
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 10:47 AM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?


                         
                        On Mon, 2011-10-17 at 11:47 -0400, Bill Toscano wrote:
                        > I am a service-track guy, so I tend to favor the "carrying things and
                        > making things go" approach.

                        That's what I do, too, at age 48. Volunteer to serve feast, work at
                        Troll (entry gate), set up chairs and tables, serve as a Herald at
                        court, or wash dishes, and you have undying gratitude from others, and
                        -- if you do it right -- a lot of fun along the way. Many hands make
                        light work! I do a lot of what we call "Department of Public Works",
                        which is to say, I lead the team that handles site logistics for our
                        events. And I do dishes. I've been a Seneschal (effectively, chapter
                        president), and I'm part of the first aid team at quite a few events.
                        I'm not naturally athletic, so I'll never be a champion fighter,
                        although I do occasionally fight. None of the administrative jobs I do
                        require physical strength, and in fact, your age often brings a patience
                        and wisdom that will serve you well in administrative roles.

                        To me, what you do as a volunteer is (usually) separate from your
                        persona choice. I'm a traveling tinker from Constantinople, who made his
                        fortune as a sewer contractor (during my time period, the wealthy in
                        Constantinople had indoor toilets!). I retired young and decided to
                        travel to western Europe with my bride, to see the things my
                        dearly-departed father saw in his travels. My persona is rich -- hey,
                        it's my imaginary life, might as well be rich! -- and actually has a
                        title of nobility from one of the Emperor's assistant deputy flunkies
                        for fixing the palace sewers. But while traveling, I pass as a simple
                        tinker to avoid attracting robbers. My point, though, is that you can do
                        whatever volunteer things you want to do, regardless of whether they fit
                        your persona. So don't worry too much about making them match up.

                        You can contribute a lot, and have fun, in the non-martial arts. Perhaps
                        you are a skilled musician or singer, or you can learn calligraphy and
                        illumination, or bookbinding, or brewing, or making stained glass, or
                        woodcarving, or silversmithing, or....well, you get the idea. :-)
                        Remember, the Norse were fierce warriors, but they also needed cooks and
                        blacksmiths and jewelers. As in real medieval life, combat is only one
                        part of the SCA.

                        Your persona doesn't have to reflect what you are physically able to do
                        *now* in the SCA. Perhaps you are a *former* carpenter, and you have
                        passed the business to your sons. Perhaps you always aspired to
                        knighthood but never attracted the King's attention, so you instead make
                        your (imaginary) living by fletching arrows for the King's troops. And
                        so on....it's limited only by your imagination, and, as others have
                        suggested, what you'd like to do in the SCA.

                        Welcome!

                        Justin

                        --
                        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                        Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                        fesswise reversed sable.

                        justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Tom Hickey
                        Wow!  That is a big help!  Very cool possibilities. How do I get more involved? We live in SW New Mexico.  There s a little brief Ren Faire in Las Cruces 2
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                          Wow!  That is a big help!  Very cool possibilities.
                          How do I get more involved?
                          We live in SW New Mexico.  There's a little brief Ren Faire in Las Cruces 2 hours away, and a big two-month long one in Tucson 3 1/2 hours away.  Is that the main type of event SCA attends, or are there other pure SCA events/gatherings in the SW?
                          - Tom

                          From: D'vorah bint al-Attar <dvorah@...>
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 12:03 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?

                          Query re: Role/persona for a middle-aged guy with light facial hair and upper body strength.

                          ACTIVITIES:

                          Martial: Rapier, archery, thrown weapons, weapon making.
                          Physical, non-martial: Dancing.
                          Service: Cooking, carrying, helping others with their camp/tent setup, learning to sign and signing Court for the hard of hearing/deaf.
                          Arts & Sciences: Unlimited. Learn about a new art/science every month until you find one or two that really fascinate you, and focus there. Then keep learning about more things, in case something else catches your fancy.

                          PERSONAE:

                          Lower-order monk or friar, or itinerant preacher (non-ordained clergy)
                          Farmer (vegetable crops or livestock)
                          Mason (you won't have to actually construct stone buildings at events, I promise)
                          Beggar (no need to spend a lot on garb or accoutrements)
                          Herald (requires little physical strength, just a good voice or a knack with research)
                          Idle rich (will require more expenditures for garb and encampment accoutrements)
                          Seneschal/chatelain (of a noble's household, not of an SCA kingdom/barony/shire -- basically, you'd run the household/fiefdom, rather than having a decided role in SCA affairs, unless you want to volunteer at that level, too)
                          Shepherd
                          Traveling merchant or trader (happens a LOT in the SCA, but hey, at least you've got good company)
                          Writer of romances (I mean, Edifying Morality Tales… yes, they had these)
                          Cook, brewer, vintner
                          Armorer (if this interests you, perhaps learn at least a little blacksmithing)
                          Fisher, hunter
                          Purveyor of relics and/or curiosities
                          Smith (silver/gold, or iron/'black')
                          Farrier/horseman
                          Fletcher (would help if you also learned some archery)
                          Weaver, sewer, clothier, dyer (learn something about fiber arts)
                          Perfumier, spice blender/merchant
                          Mercenary (learn some type of martial activity)
                          Houndsman (learn about period species of dogs used for hunting, racing, or home protection)
                          Leatherworker (shoes, clothing, armor, miscellaneous useful objects)
                          Animal husbandry (learn about period species of livestock and such)
                          Chandler

                          Also, look into various areas of the world (and time periods) and find one whose philosophies, culture, language, or garb interest you the most. Place your persona there, and then figure out what your persona does for a living. Think about what your persona does when NOT attending these big group fairs/events that are, essentially, not a way of life but a deviation from regular life.

                          On 17 Oct 2011, at 11:34 AM, Tom Hickey wrote:

                          > I make stuff.  This is a Nine Men's Morris board I just finished.  I could teach people to play it.
                          > Archery sounds good!
                          > Thank you!
                          >
                          > From: Bill Toscano <liamstliam@...>
                          > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:47 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                          >
                          > I would recommend archery or thrown weapons as martial activities.
                          >
                          > What do you like to do. SCA groups are always looking for cooks, and there
                          > are people who can teach you most arts and sciences.
                          >
                          > I am a service-track guy, so I tend to favor the "carrying things and making
                          > things go" approach.
                          >
                          > The SCA is a volunteer organization and runs on people like that.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:31 AM, Tom <thickeymd@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> **
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> What are some good personas for a more-than-middle-aged guy? I don't have
                          >> enough facial hair to pass as Gandolf, nor enough upper body to bash swords
                          >> with ye whippersnappers.
                          >>
                          >> 
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                          D'vorah bint al-Attar
                          Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                          dvorah@...
                          http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
                          Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
                          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • cjburke_99
                          This places you in the Kingdom of the Outlands. There is a map of the Kingdom, showing the Baronies and Shires within the Outlands, at
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                            This places you in the Kingdom of the Outlands. There is a map of the Kingdom, showing the Baronies and Shires within the Outlands, at http://www.outlands.org/Default.aspx?tabid=442

                            I don't know about other areas, but up here in Aethelmarc (upstate New York, parts of Pennsylvania and West Virginia) the SCA and the Renn Faires are seperate. My own view is, the Renn Faire folks are professionals, getting paid for it, while we in the SCA do it for the love of the activity. Not to say the Faires are bad, quit ethe contrary, I love them. But there's a difference between preparing for scheduled performances in a role (even if it's largely improvisational) and living your life in the modern Middle Ages.

                            Yours in Service,
                            Dragos Pelikanos
                            "Let there be music! Let there be dancing!"


                            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickey <thickeymd@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Wow!  That is a big help!  Very cool possibilities.
                            > How do I get more involved?
                            > We live in SW New Mexico.  There's a little brief Ren Faire in Las Cruces 2 hours away, and a big two-month long one in Tucson 3 1/2 hours away.  Is that the main type of event SCA attends, or are there other pure SCA events/gatherings in the SW?
                            > - Tom
                            >
                            > From: D'vorah bint al-Attar <dvorah@...>
                            > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 12:03 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                            >
                            > Query re: Role/persona for a middle-aged guy with light facial hair and upper body strength.
                          • Tom Hickey
                            Pretty cool,  So do you live in the Middle Ages?  I have tried to carve my own spoon and it s not as easy as it looks. - Tom ________________________________
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                              Pretty cool,  So do you live in the Middle Ages?  I have tried to carve my own spoon and it's not as easy as it looks.
                              - Tom


                              ________________________________
                              From: cjburke_99 <cjburke@...>
                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 2:21 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?


                               
                              This places you in the Kingdom of the Outlands. There is a map of the Kingdom, showing the Baronies and Shires within the Outlands, at http://www.outlands.org/Default.aspx?tabid=442

                              I don't know about other areas, but up here in Aethelmarc (upstate New York, parts of Pennsylvania and West Virginia) the SCA and the Renn Faires are seperate. My own view is, the Renn Faire folks are professionals, getting paid for it, while we in the SCA do it for the love of the activity. Not to say the Faires are bad, quit ethe contrary, I love them. But there's a difference between preparing for scheduled performances in a role (even if it's largely improvisational) and living your life in the modern Middle Ages.

                              Yours in Service,
                              Dragos Pelikanos
                              "Let there be music! Let there be dancing!"

                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickey <thickeymd@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Wow!  That is a big help!  Very cool possibilities.
                              > How do I get more involved?
                              > We live in SW New Mexico.  There's a little brief Ren Faire in Las Cruces 2 hours away, and a big two-month long one in Tucson 3 1/2 hours away.  Is that the main type of event SCA attends, or are there other pure SCA events/gatherings in the SW?
                              > - Tom
                              >
                              > From: D'vorah bint al-Attar <dvorah@...>
                              > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 12:03 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                              >
                              > Query re: Role/persona for a middle-aged guy with light facial hair and upper body strength.




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Chuck Burke
                              In the modern Middle Ages, yes. Living in the modern world, but trying to maintain a sense of honor for myself and others. That s my interpretation of it, at
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In the modern Middle Ages, yes. Living in the modern world, but trying
                                to maintain a sense of honor for myself and others. That's my
                                interpretation of it, at least.

                                Yours in Service,
                                Dragos Pelikanos
                                "Let there be music! Let there be dancing!"


                                On 10/17/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Hickey wrote:
                                > Pretty cool, So do you live in the Middle Ages? I have tried to carve my own spoon and it's not as easy as it looks.
                                > - Tom
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: cjburke_99<cjburke@...>
                                > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 2:21 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > This places you in the Kingdom of the Outlands. There is a map of the Kingdom, showing the Baronies and Shires within the Outlands, at http://www.outlands.org/Default.aspx?tabid=442
                                >
                                > I don't know about other areas, but up here in Aethelmarc (upstate New York, parts of Pennsylvania and West Virginia) the SCA and the Renn Faires are seperate. My own view is, the Renn Faire folks are professionals, getting paid for it, while we in the SCA do it for the love of the activity. Not to say the Faires are bad, quit ethe contrary, I love them. But there's a difference between preparing for scheduled performances in a role (even if it's largely improvisational) and living your life in the modern Middle Ages.
                                >
                                >
                              • Tom Hickey
                                A worthy goal, Sir. From: Chuck Burke To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [SCA
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 17, 2011
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                                  A worthy goal, Sir.


                                  From: Chuck Burke <cjburke@...>
                                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:57 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?


                                   
                                  In the modern Middle Ages, yes. Living in the modern world, but trying
                                  to maintain a sense of honor for myself and others. That's my
                                  interpretation of it, at least.

                                  Yours in Service,
                                  Dragos Pelikanos
                                  "Let there be music! Let there be dancing!"

                                  On 10/17/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Hickey wrote:
                                  > Pretty cool, So do you live in the Middle Ages? I have tried to carve my own spoon and it's not as easy as it looks.
                                  > - Tom
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: cjburke_99<cjburke@...>
                                  > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 2:21 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > This places you in the Kingdom of the Outlands. There is a map of the Kingdom, showing the Baronies and Shires within the Outlands, at http://www.outlands.org/Default.aspx?tabid=442
                                  >
                                  > I don't know about other areas, but up here in Aethelmarc (upstate New York, parts of Pennsylvania and West Virginia) the SCA and the Renn Faires are seperate. My own view is, the Renn Faire folks are professionals, getting paid for it, while we in the SCA do it for the love of the activity. Not to say the Faires are bad, quit ethe contrary, I love them. But there's a difference between preparing for scheduled performances in a role (even if it's largely improvisational) and living your life in the modern Middle Ages.
                                  >
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Cailin Mac Kinnach
                                  Where at in new mexico? I m from el paso and I can get you in contact with the right people. Cailin ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 18, 2011
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                                    Where at in new mexico? I'm from el paso and I can get you in contact with
                                    the right people.

                                    Cailin
                                    On Oct 18, 2011 12:39 AM, "Tom Hickey" <thickeymd@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > A worthy goal, Sir.
                                    >
                                    > From: Chuck Burke <cjburke@...>
                                    > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:57 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > In the modern Middle Ages, yes. Living in the modern world, but trying
                                    > to maintain a sense of honor for myself and others. That's my
                                    > interpretation of it, at least.
                                    >
                                    > Yours in Service,
                                    > Dragos Pelikanos
                                    > "Let there be music! Let there be dancing!"
                                    >
                                    > On 10/17/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Hickey wrote:
                                    > > Pretty cool, So do you live in the Middle Ages? I have tried to carve my
                                    > own spoon and it's not as easy as it looks.
                                    > > - Tom
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ________________________________
                                    > > From: cjburke_99<cjburke@...>
                                    > > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 2:21 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > This places you in the Kingdom of the Outlands. There is a map of the
                                    > Kingdom, showing the Baronies and Shires within the Outlands, at
                                    > http://www.outlands.org/Default.aspx?tabid=442
                                    > >
                                    > > I don't know about other areas, but up here in Aethelmarc (upstate New
                                    > York, parts of Pennsylvania and West Virginia) the SCA and the Renn Faires
                                    > are seperate. My own view is, the Renn Faire folks are professionals,
                                    > getting paid for it, while we in the SCA do it for the love of the activity.
                                    > Not to say the Faires are bad, quit ethe contrary, I love them. But there's
                                    > a difference between preparing for scheduled performances in a role (even if
                                    > it's largely improvisational) and living your life in the modern Middle
                                    > Ages.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Tom Hickey
                                    We re in Silver City!  Thanks for any guidance. - Tom From: Cailin Mac Kinnach To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 18, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      We're in Silver City!  Thanks for any guidance.
                                      - Tom

                                      From: Cailin Mac Kinnach <cailin.sca@...>
                                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:18 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?

                                      Where at in new mexico? I'm from el paso and I can get you in contact with
                                      the right people.

                                      Cailin
                                      On Oct 18, 2011 12:39 AM, "Tom Hickey" <thickeymd@...> wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > A worthy goal, Sir.
                                      >
                                      > From: Chuck Burke <cjburke@...>
                                      > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:57 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > In the modern Middle Ages, yes. Living in the modern world, but trying
                                      > to maintain a sense of honor for myself and others. That's my
                                      > interpretation of it, at least.
                                      >
                                      > Yours in Service,
                                      > Dragos Pelikanos
                                      > "Let there be music! Let there be dancing!"
                                      >
                                      > On 10/17/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Hickey wrote:
                                      > > Pretty cool, So do you live in the Middle Ages? I have tried to carve my
                                      > own spoon and it's not as easy as it looks.
                                      > > - Tom
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ________________________________
                                      > > From: cjburke_99<cjburke@...>
                                      > > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 2:21 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Role for Sage?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > This places you in the Kingdom of the Outlands. There is a map of the
                                      > Kingdom, showing the Baronies and Shires within the Outlands, at
                                      > http://www.outlands.org/Default.aspx?tabid=442
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't know about other areas, but up here in Aethelmarc (upstate New
                                      > York, parts of Pennsylvania and West Virginia) the SCA and the Renn Faires
                                      > are seperate. My own view is, the Renn Faire folks are professionals,
                                      > getting paid for it, while we in the SCA do it for the love of the activity.
                                      > Not to say the Faires are bad, quit ethe contrary, I love them. But there's
                                      > a difference between preparing for scheduled performances in a role (even if
                                      > it's largely improvisational) and living your life in the modern Middle
                                      > Ages.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >

                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Stefan li Rous
                                      Tom asked some questions as a newcomer. Tom since I get this list in digest form, I m seeing all your questions and the answers in one batch, so here are my
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 18, 2011
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                                        Tom asked some questions as a newcomer.

                                        Tom since I get this list in digest form, I'm seeing all your
                                        questions and the answers in one batch, so here are my replies:
                                        <<< I make stuff. This is a Nine Men's Morris board I just finished.
                                        I could teach people to play it.
                                        Archery sounds good!>>>

                                        I run a large medieval/SCA website called Stefan's Florilegium, at www.florilegium.org

                                        You might want to look at the ARCHERY section there. We shoot both
                                        longbows and crossbows at various targets in various types of shoots.
                                        No compound bows with all the pulleys and mechanical additions, though.

                                        Also archery is allowed in many armored combat scenerios, with special
                                        "safe" arrows and bow wieght limits on the bows. Again, bow and
                                        crossbow. See the ARCHERY section.

                                        Like big toys? See this file in the COMBAT section:siege-engines-msg
                                        (98K) 1/10/08 Catapults, trebuchets. Period and modern.

                                        From the ENYRRTAINMENT section:
                                        games-msg (113K) 7/18/04 Medieval board games and sports.

                                        In the CRAFTS section since you mention making stuff:
                                        wood-msg (62K) 2/ 8/08 Different types of wood, period terms.
                                        merch-woods-msg (5K) 5/25/02 Sources for period and exotic woods.
                                        wood-bending-msg (20K) 1/ 6/11 Period and modern methods for
                                        bending wood.
                                        wood-finishes-msg (98K) 2/13/08 Period and SCA wood finishes. Stains.

                                        woodworking-msg (50K) 4/24/05 Woodworking tools and techniques. wood
                                        finishes.
                                        chip-carving-msg (5K) 11/29/99 Comments on chip carving, (wood
                                        carving).

                                        <<< I have tried to carve my own spoon and it's not as easy as it
                                        looks.>>>
                                        wood-utensils-msg (18K) 3/29/08 Making and finishing wooden
                                        utensils, mugs.
                                        Working-Horn-art (62K) 7/19/08 "Working with Horn and Skeletal
                                        Materials" by Lord Mikal Isernfocar (called Ironhawk).
                                        Horn-Spoons-art (9K) 1/ 5/00 "Making Horn Spoons" by Mistress
                                        Gunnora
                                        Hallakarva.
                                        Horn-Working-art (18K) 5/21/08 "Method for period horn work" by Kirk
                                        Morrison.

                                        Dragos Pelikanos replied to Tom saying:
                                        <<< In the modern Middle Ages, yes. Living in the modern world, but
                                        trying
                                        to maintain a sense of honor for myself and others. That's my
                                        interpretation of it, at least.>>>

                                        See the PERSONA section and perhaps the following sections and files.
                                        In the SCA-SOCIOLOGY section:
                                        magic-moments-msg (50K) 7/ 1/08 "Magic moments" experienced in the
                                        SCA.
                                        SCA-The-Dream-msg (50K) 1/11/96 What the SCA means for different
                                        people.

                                        I hope this gives you an idea of some of things you can do in the SCA,

                                        Stefan
                                        --------
                                        THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                        Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                        http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                                        **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                                      • Tom Hickey
                                        Thanks Stefan!  I will check out those links.  I have a simple crossbow (no pulleys etc.) - Tom From: Stefan li Rous To: SCA
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 18, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks Stefan!  I will check out those links.  I have a simple crossbow (no pulleys etc.)
                                          - Tom

                                          From: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous@...>
                                          To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Cc: thickeymd@...
                                          Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 12:05 AM
                                          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Role for Sage?


                                           
                                          Tom asked some questions as a newcomer.

                                          Tom since I get this list in digest form, I'm seeing all your
                                          questions and the answers in one batch, so here are my replies:
                                          <<< I make stuff. This is a Nine Men's Morris board I just finished.
                                          I could teach people to play it.
                                          Archery sounds good!>>>

                                          I run a large medieval/SCA website called Stefan's Florilegium, at www.florilegium.org

                                          You might want to look at the ARCHERY section there. We shoot both
                                          longbows and crossbows at various targets in various types of shoots.
                                          No compound bows with all the pulleys and mechanical additions, though.

                                          Also archery is allowed in many armored combat scenerios, with special
                                          "safe" arrows and bow wieght limits on the bows. Again, bow and
                                          crossbow. See the ARCHERY section.

                                          Like big toys? See this file in the COMBAT section:siege-engines-msg
                                          (98K) 1/10/08 Catapults, trebuchets. Period and modern.

                                          From the ENYRRTAINMENT section:
                                          games-msg (113K) 7/18/04 Medieval board games and sports.

                                          In the CRAFTS section since you mention making stuff:
                                          wood-msg (62K) 2/ 8/08 Different types of wood, period terms.
                                          merch-woods-msg (5K) 5/25/02 Sources for period and exotic woods.
                                          wood-bending-msg (20K) 1/ 6/11 Period and modern methods for
                                          bending wood.
                                          wood-finishes-msg (98K) 2/13/08 Period and SCA wood finishes. Stains.

                                          woodworking-msg (50K) 4/24/05 Woodworking tools and techniques. wood
                                          finishes.
                                          chip-carving-msg (5K) 11/29/99 Comments on chip carving, (wood
                                          carving).

                                          <<< I have tried to carve my own spoon and it's not as easy as it
                                          looks.>>>
                                          wood-utensils-msg (18K) 3/29/08 Making and finishing wooden
                                          utensils, mugs.
                                          Working-Horn-art (62K) 7/19/08 "Working with Horn and Skeletal
                                          Materials" by Lord Mikal Isernfocar (called Ironhawk).
                                          Horn-Spoons-art (9K) 1/ 5/00 "Making Horn Spoons" by Mistress
                                          Gunnora
                                          Hallakarva.
                                          Horn-Working-art (18K) 5/21/08 "Method for period horn work" by Kirk
                                          Morrison.

                                          Dragos Pelikanos replied to Tom saying:
                                          <<< In the modern Middle Ages, yes. Living in the modern world, but
                                          trying
                                          to maintain a sense of honor for myself and others. That's my
                                          interpretation of it, at least.>>>

                                          See the PERSONA section and perhaps the following sections and files.
                                          In the SCA-SOCIOLOGY section:
                                          magic-moments-msg (50K) 7/ 1/08 "Magic moments" experienced in the
                                          SCA.
                                          SCA-The-Dream-msg (50K) 1/11/96 What the SCA means for different
                                          people.

                                          I hope this gives you an idea of some of things you can do in the SCA,

                                          Stefan
                                          --------
                                          THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                          Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                          http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                                          **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Cailin Mac Kinnach
                                          Tom, here s the meetup page, and currently the best source of information for SCA goings on in the region surrounding el paso and las cruces.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Oct 19, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Tom, here's the meetup page, and currently the best source of information
                                            for SCA goings on in the region surrounding el paso and las cruces.

                                            http://www.meetup.com/scaelpaso

                                            Please do come out to the Las Cruces Ren Faire and hang out! Information is
                                            on the meetup page.

                                            Cailin

                                            On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:48 AM, Tom Hickey <thickeymd@...> wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thanks Stefan! I will check out those links. I have a simple crossbow (no
                                            > pulleys etc.)
                                            > - Tom
                                            >
                                            > From: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous@...>
                                            > To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Cc: thickeymd@...
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 12:05 AM
                                            >
                                            > Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Role for Sage?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Tom asked some questions as a newcomer.
                                            >
                                            > Tom since I get this list in digest form, I'm seeing all your
                                            > questions and the answers in one batch, so here are my replies:
                                            > <<< I make stuff. This is a Nine Men's Morris board I just finished.
                                            > I could teach people to play it.
                                            > Archery sounds good!>>>
                                            >
                                            > I run a large medieval/SCA website called Stefan's Florilegium, at
                                            > www.florilegium.org
                                            >
                                            > You might want to look at the ARCHERY section there. We shoot both
                                            > longbows and crossbows at various targets in various types of shoots.
                                            > No compound bows with all the pulleys and mechanical additions, though.
                                            >
                                            > Also archery is allowed in many armored combat scenerios, with special
                                            > "safe" arrows and bow wieght limits on the bows. Again, bow and
                                            > crossbow. See the ARCHERY section.
                                            >
                                            > Like big toys? See this file in the COMBAT section:siege-engines-msg
                                            > (98K) 1/10/08 Catapults, trebuchets. Period and modern.
                                            >
                                            > From the ENYRRTAINMENT section:
                                            > games-msg (113K) 7/18/04 Medieval board games and sports.
                                            >
                                            > In the CRAFTS section since you mention making stuff:
                                            > wood-msg (62K) 2/ 8/08 Different types of wood, period terms.
                                            > merch-woods-msg (5K) 5/25/02 Sources for period and exotic woods.
                                            > wood-bending-msg (20K) 1/ 6/11 Period and modern methods for
                                            > bending wood.
                                            > wood-finishes-msg (98K) 2/13/08 Period and SCA wood finishes. Stains.
                                            >
                                            > woodworking-msg (50K) 4/24/05 Woodworking tools and techniques. wood
                                            > finishes.
                                            > chip-carving-msg (5K) 11/29/99 Comments on chip carving, (wood
                                            > carving).
                                            >
                                            > <<< I have tried to carve my own spoon and it's not as easy as it
                                            > looks.>>>
                                            > wood-utensils-msg (18K) 3/29/08 Making and finishing wooden
                                            > utensils, mugs.
                                            > Working-Horn-art (62K) 7/19/08 "Working with Horn and Skeletal
                                            > Materials" by Lord Mikal Isernfocar (called Ironhawk).
                                            > Horn-Spoons-art (9K) 1/ 5/00 "Making Horn Spoons" by Mistress
                                            > Gunnora
                                            > Hallakarva.
                                            > Horn-Working-art (18K) 5/21/08 "Method for period horn work" by Kirk
                                            > Morrison.
                                            >
                                            > Dragos Pelikanos replied to Tom saying:
                                            > <<< In the modern Middle Ages, yes. Living in the modern world, but
                                            > trying
                                            > to maintain a sense of honor for myself and others. That's my
                                            > interpretation of it, at least.>>>
                                            >
                                            > See the PERSONA section and perhaps the following sections and files.
                                            > In the SCA-SOCIOLOGY section:
                                            > magic-moments-msg (50K) 7/ 1/08 "Magic moments" experienced in the
                                            > SCA.
                                            > SCA-The-Dream-msg (50K) 1/11/96 What the SCA means for different
                                            > people.
                                            >
                                            > I hope this gives you an idea of some of things you can do in the SCA,
                                            >
                                            > Stefan
                                            > --------
                                            > THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                            > Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                            > http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
                                            > **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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