Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?

Expand Messages
  • Nicole E. Miller
    At this point you really need to consult with your local herald. You are going to have to go through them (or one of the at-large heralds in your area) in the
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      At this point you really need to consult with your local herald. You are going to have to go through them (or one of the at-large heralds in your area) in the end anyway. Any proposed device will have to be conflict checked visually and by the blazon (written description in herald-speak) against everything else that has ever been registered.

      Sian
      ---- warbow67 <warbow67@...> wrote:

      =============
      Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

      So it shall be just a generic fox, no colors. Now how do I go about incorporating it?

      Dave H


      -------------------------------------




      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole E. Miller" <schnauzer2@...> wrote:
      >
      > Upon looking up that particular species, you may have another problem. It is a wholy new world species and very well may not have been known (and would never have been used in heraldry) in the old world.
      >
      > Sian
      > ---- warbow67 <warbow67@...> wrote:
      >
      > =============
      > The species is "Urocyon Cinereoargenteus", the Gray Fox, not the Red Fox.
      >
      > Dave H
      >
      > -------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro <no_reply@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Wouldn't a "proper" fox just be a red one? I thought proper was used to describe a creature as it normally was in nature, and the standard fox is red color.
      > >
      > > Of course, I may be wrong.
      > >
      > > Bianca
      > >
      > > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dave or Megan Anhorn <danhorn3@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > On 10/12/10 8:06 AM, warbow67 wrote:
      > > > > I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?
      > > > >
      > > > > Dave H
      > > > >
      > > > > --------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > If you're looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it "proper" and work
      > > > around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.)
      > > >
      > > > So for example Argent, a grey fox passant proper, would give you a white
      > > > background with a grey fox in it's natural state with 3 feet on the
      > > > ground and the right forepaw raised.
      > > >
      > > > Gwenhyfar Stuart
      > > > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • D'vorah bint al-Attar
      ... I m CCing my response to this, sending it to my Pelican master who is a herald and very knowledgeable. I m still such a rank beginner that I may be either
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        On 12 Oct 2010, at 9:05 AM, warbow67 wrote:

        > OK, so I am learning a lot here, thanks everyone. I have uploaded a pic here which shows my first shield idea "A", and now my modified one "B". So tell me what I am doing wrong (or right). And what color should the broadhead be?
        >
        > Photo: http://i56.tinypic.com/qp1nv9.jpg
        >
        > Dave H

        I'm CCing my response to this, sending it to my Pelican master who is a herald and very knowledgeable. I'm still such a rank beginner that I may be either misremembering the "rules" or just not aware of something that could render my advice less than useful. Master Albrecht, could you correct me, please? I hope to learn.

        First of all, Dave, I love the look of this device. It looks very "correct" to my (admittedly, less than well-educated) heraldic eye; and also very personal, and it's got a lot of visual appeal as well. In looking at both your proposed devices, I feel like there's a story behind each of the elements, rather than just "I thought it looked cool." Visual appeal is important, but shields that tell stories or that hint to a persona's family history are so much cooler than shields that only take aesthetics into consideration. For what it's worth, I like that strong black broadhead slightly better than the green in device A, because it stands out so much more.

        Secondly, since your 'field' (background color) is white, I *think* you probably wouldn't be able to use a white or grey fox on it, even with the outlines, because there's not enough visual contrast from more than just a few feet away. What will be more likely to pass is a black fox on a white background, or a white fox on a black background. "Argent" is what they call white, silver, and in some cases light grey; and the fact that they often use the same word for grey as for white and silver may indicate that within our period, they didn't see enough difference. I notice that you're calling yourself Annain the Graye, though, so you may feel very strongly about maintaining the grey color of the fox. If you make it a darker shade of grey, and call it "a grey fox proper," that may also satisfy the heraldic college. I hope so, because it looks really good. Very striking, apart from the low contrast of fox to field, and not likely to be too close to anyone else's, I'd guess.
        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
        D'vorah bint al-Attar
        Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
        Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
        dvorah@...
        http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
        Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
        -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      • Dave or Megan Anhorn
        ... New world species are allowable as there is documentable late period heraldry with new world charges on it. Gwenhyfar Stuart
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          On 10/12/10 11:50 AM, Nicole E. Miller wrote:
          > Upon looking up that particular species, you may have another problem. It is a wholy new world species and very well may not have been known (and would never have been used in heraldry) in the old world.
          >
          > Sian
          > ---- warbow67<warbow67@...> wrote:
          >
          > =============
          > The species is "Urocyon Cinereoargenteus", the Gray Fox, not the Red Fox.
          >
          > Dave H
          >
          > -------------------------------

          New world species are allowable as there is documentable late period
          heraldry with new world charges on it.

          Gwenhyfar Stuart
          > > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
        • warbow67
          Thank you, I m glad you like it. There is a story behind the elements and the whole color scheme. The persona I am building is called Annain the Graye .
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Thank you, I'm glad you like it. There is a story behind the "elements" and the whole color scheme.

            The persona I am building is called "Annain the Graye". Annain is the original ancient form of my surname though it is rarely known (it is believed to go back to about 800 AD).

            My persona is Hiberno/Norman of the late 12th century. He is originally from Chester, England, and was a levied archer in the Anglo-Norman army in the Second Crusade. After retiring from the war he set up shop as a leatherworker, specifically a "bottel" maker. He eventually acquired the nickname of "the Graye Fox" and uses a fox as a personal badge.

            In 1169 in his mid-forties he sought a new life and accepted King Henry II's appeal for settlers to join Lord Richard "Strongbow" de Clare's invasion of Ireland, and settled in Wexford to start his new life.

            Given this history I chose the colors of white and green to represent the livery colors of the Chester archers of the time, and a broadhead as well, and a fox as his personal badge creature. The border is in wavy form to represent his travel across the Irish Sea.

            Seeing now that a "azure" colored fox can be considered silver (close enough to gray), and that it cannot be on a azure field, I wonder if the device should be split in half and the top be "counter-posed" with the azure fox passant on a vert field with azure border, leaving the lower half as is. But knowing color has symbolism what would different colors of broadheads mean? (so I can narrow my selection).

            Thanks again,
            Dave H


            ---------------------------------



            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, D'vorah bint al-Attar <dvorah@...> wrote:


            > I'm CCing my response to this, sending it to my Pelican master who is a herald and very knowledgeable. I'm still such a rank beginner that I may be either misremembering the "rules" or just not aware of something that could render my advice less than useful. Master Albrecht, could you correct me, please? I hope to learn.
            >
            > First of all, Dave, I love the look of this device. It looks very "correct" to my (admittedly, less than well-educated) heraldic eye; and also very personal, and it's got a lot of visual appeal as well. In looking at both your proposed devices, I feel like there's a story behind each of the elements, rather than just "I thought it looked cool." Visual appeal is important, but shields that tell stories or that hint to a persona's family history are so much cooler than shields that only take aesthetics into consideration. For what it's worth, I like that strong black broadhead slightly better than the green in device A, because it stands out so much more.
            >
            > Secondly, since your 'field' (background color) is white, I *think* you probably wouldn't be able to use a white or grey fox on it, even with the outlines, because there's not enough visual contrast from more than just a few feet away. What will be more likely to pass is a black fox on a white background, or a white fox on a black background. "Argent" is what they call white, silver, and in some cases light grey; and the fact that they often use the same word for grey as for white and silver may indicate that within our period, they didn't see enough difference. I notice that you're calling yourself Annain the Graye, though, so you may feel very strongly about maintaining the grey color of the fox. If you make it a darker shade of grey, and call it "a grey fox proper," that may also satisfy the heraldic college. I hope so, because it looks really good. Very striking, apart from the low contrast of fox to field, and not likely to be too close to anyone else's, I'd guess.
            > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
            > D'vorah bint al-Attar
            > Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
            > Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
            > dvorah@...
            > http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
            > Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
            > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
            >
          • Stefan li Rous
            Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov asked: Or black or silver? I guess it depends upon the
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov asked:
              <<< wouldnt that (ie: grey) be white as far as blazoning is concerned? >>>

              Or black or silver? I guess it depends upon the actual shade of the grey. Hence the reason that the number of heraldic colors is restricted.

              Stefan

              --------
              THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
              Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
              **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
            • warbow67
              My mistake, Argent means white or silver, not Azure . I meant to say Argent . This heraldry stuff is complicated..... Dave H
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                My mistake, "Argent" means white or silver, not "Azure". I meant to say "Argent". This heraldry stuff is complicated.....

                Dave H
              • christopher chastain
                Blame the French Yours in Humble Service, Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Blame the French





                  Yours in Humble Service,
                  Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                  Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent

                  "Though I walk in the valley of death I shall fear no evil for my sword and shield are with me!"





                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  From: warbow67@...
                  Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 04:07:20 +0000
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?




























                  My mistake, "Argent" means white or silver, not "Azure". I meant to say "Argent". This heraldry stuff is complicated.....



                  Dave H


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • shandra_
                  Since you cannot use a gray (argent/silver/white)fox on a white background (they d blur together on a shield viewed from 100 yards away), I ve come up with a
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Since you cannot use a gray (argent/silver/white)fox on a white background (they'd blur together on a shield viewed from 100 yards away), I've come up with a couple of alternatives for you.

                    Please note, I have not checked either of these for any conflict with existing devices, so should you like one, you should contact your local herald to check for you.

                    And pardon my quick 5 minute "sketches".

                    http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox1.jpg
                    http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox2.jpg (my fav)

                    ~Alexandra Vazquez de Granada
                    (called Shandra)
                    Barony of Coeur d'Ennui, Calontir
                  • warbow67
                    Actually the second one is exactly what I am working on right now (though with a tightened up wave pattern on the border). Dave H
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 13, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Actually the second one is exactly what I am working on right now (though with a tightened up wave pattern on the border).

                      Dave H


                      -------------------------------------


                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, shandra_ <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Since you cannot use a gray (argent/silver/white)fox on a white background (they'd blur together on a shield viewed from 100 yards away), I've come up with a couple of alternatives for you.
                      >
                      > Please note, I have not checked either of these for any conflict with existing devices, so should you like one, you should contact your local herald to check for you.
                      >
                      > And pardon my quick 5 minute "sketches".
                      >
                      > http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox1.jpg
                      > http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox2.jpg (my fav)
                      >
                      > ~Alexandra Vazquez de Granada
                      > (called Shandra)
                      > Barony of Coeur d'Ennui, Calontir
                      >
                    • bianca_di_alessandro
                      I m not sure if you can tighten up the wavy edge treatment beyond what Alexandra did. Edge treatments are generally supposed to be drawn big, bold and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 13, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I'm not sure if you can "tighten up" the wavy edge treatment beyond what Alexandra did. Edge treatments are generally supposed to be drawn "big, bold and butch" as someone put it, with fewer, bigger waves rather than a large number of small ones.

                        I'd agree with the folks that suggest discussing this with a herald before you get set on any one design. It looks good, though.

                        Bianca

                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "warbow67" <warbow67@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Actually the second one is exactly what I am working on right now (though with a tightened up wave pattern on the border).
                        >
                        > Dave H
                        >
                        >
                        > -------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, shandra_ <no_reply@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Since you cannot use a gray (argent/silver/white)fox on a white background (they'd blur together on a shield viewed from 100 yards away), I've come up with a couple of alternatives for you.
                        > >
                        > > Please note, I have not checked either of these for any conflict with existing devices, so should you like one, you should contact your local herald to check for you.
                        > >
                        > > And pardon my quick 5 minute "sketches".
                        > >
                        > > http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox1.jpg
                        > > http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox2.jpg (my fav)
                        > >
                        > > ~Alexandra Vazquez de Granada
                        > > (called Shandra)
                        > > Barony of Coeur d'Ennui, Calontir
                        > >
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.