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Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?

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  • warbow67
    I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox,
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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      I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?

      Dave H

      --------------------------------



      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, gjgastal@... wrote:
      >
      > Sorry but no. Yellow, white, green, blue, red, purple and black are. I may have missed some though. But grey is not an allowed tincture
      > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



      -----------------------------

      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: "warbow67" <warbow67@...>
      > Sender: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 02:58:56
      > To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
      > Reply-To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?
      >
      > Does anyone know if the color of "cendree" (dark gray) is allowed as a tincture for SCA heraldry?
      >
      > Dave H
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Kristen Praiswater
      If you can t use grey then you should use silver.   Kristen ... From: warbow67 Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures? To:
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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        If you can't use grey then you should use silver.
         
        Kristen

        --- On Tue, 10/12/10, warbow67 <warbow67@...> wrote:


        From: warbow67 <warbow67@...>
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 7:06 AM


         



        I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?

        Dave H

        --------------------------------

        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, gjgastal@... wrote:
        >
        > Sorry but no. Yellow, white, green, blue, red, purple and black are. I may have missed some though. But grey is not an allowed tincture
        > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

        -----------------------------

        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: "warbow67" <warbow67@...>
        > Sender: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 02:58:56
        > To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
        > Reply-To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?
        >
        > Does anyone know if the color of "cendree" (dark gray) is allowed as a tincture for SCA heraldry?
        >
        > Dave H
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • D'vorah bint al-Attar
        ... Hi, Dave! Cendree is indeed a historical heraldry tincture, but it isn t used within the SCA s period of interest. The colors supported in SCA heraldry
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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          On 12 Oct 2010, at 7:06 AM, warbow67 wrote:

          > I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?
          >
          > Dave H

          Hi, Dave! Cendree is indeed a historical heraldry tincture, but it isn't used within the SCA's period of interest. The colors supported in SCA heraldry are:

          Argent - white or silver
          Sable - black
          Gules - red
          Or - yellow or gold
          Vert - green
          Azure - blue
          Purpure - purple

          You'll notice, I'm sure, that brown and orange are also omitted, though eventually both did enter the heraldic rainbow. Actually, brown WAS done within the SCA's period, but only in Islamic countries -- and they didn't have purple, so there was a definite tradeoff. If your persona is from an Islamic country, you might get a device registered with brown in it, but only if there's no purple.
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          D'vorah bint al-Attar
          Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
          Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
          dvorah@...
          http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
          Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
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        • Dave or Megan Anhorn
          ... If you re looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it proper and work around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.) So for
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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            On 10/12/10 8:06 AM, warbow67 wrote:
            > I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?
            >
            > Dave H
            >
            > --------------------------------

            If you're looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it "proper" and work
            around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.)

            So for example Argent, a grey fox passant proper, would give you a white
            background with a grey fox in it's natural state with 3 feet on the
            ground and the right forepaw raised.

            Gwenhyfar Stuart
            Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
          • Nicole E. Miller
            D vorah bint al-Attar wrote: You ll notice, I m sure, that brown and orange are also omitted, though eventually both did enter
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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              D'vorah bint al-Attar <dvorah@...> wrote:

              "You'll notice, I'm sure, that brown and orange are also omitted, though eventually both did enter the heraldic rainbow. Actually, brown WAS done within the SCA's period, but only in Islamic countries"



              Brown is actually allowable, but it not described in the normal fashion. Many items are brownish in nature and are also used as heraldic items (deer, otters, foxes, trees, etc). However, when doing so, the item would be described as being "proper" meaning how it would look in nature. An animal could be any of the accepted tinctures (blue, green, white, etc), but as an example in your fox case, as long as the background color was either argent (white/silver) or Or (yellow/gold) -following the rest of the SCA heraldic color rules- you could call it "a fox proper" which would be a brown fox with a black mask.

              I hope this doesn't add too much to the confusion. SCA heraldry, while based closely on British heraldic rules, is still a beast of its own. The best thing to do is to find you local herald and have a chat. Also a great place to get some heraldic knowledge is the society heralds web page (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/armory_articles.html). That's where we heralds start learning the ropes.

              In Service,
              Sian
            • D'vorah bint al-Attar
              ... You are correct, objects are describable as proper if they do appear brown in nature. I was referring to fields and standard charges such as pales,
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                On 12 Oct 2010, at 7:30 AM, Nicole E. Miller wrote:

                > Brown is actually allowable, but it not described in the normal fashion. Many items are brownish in nature and are also used as heraldic items (deer, otters, foxes, trees, etc).

                You are correct, objects are describable as proper if they do appear brown in nature. I was referring to fields and 'standard' charges such as pales, bends, cantons, gyrons, and the like. You could have, say, an otter proper (brown), but not -- for instance -- chevronny argent and brown.
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                D'vorah bint al-Attar
                Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
                Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                dvorah@...
                http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
                Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
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              • Bambi TBNL
                I m not sure but hite being representative of silver as yellow is called gold grey might some how orkout to silver in the sca. There are also two oncepts i
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                  I m not sure but hite being representative of silver as yellow is called gold grey might some how orkout to silver in the sca. There are also two oncepts i hav heard of but do not know how they work . One is rtstic license where you have it dranw to blazon but aadd small details that dont mk ny ifferenc ona banne across thw battlefield but flesh out your oncept. The othe is omehing about the description " in nature " where a brownhorse is just a brwon horse. I ould try looking up your locl herald to share informaiion with you and also try to maybe attend a larger event that sys they will have heraldic advice table or heralds point .by bringin your notes an drawings you can tlkone on one n even look at research materials. Hope his helps
                  -----Original Message-----
                  Date: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 8:07:06 am
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  From: "warbow67" <warbow67@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?

                  I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?

                  Dave H

                  --------------------------------



                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, gjgastal@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Sorry but no. Yellow, white, green, blue, red, purple and black are. I may have missed some though. But grey is not an allowed tincture
                  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



                  -----------------------------

                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: "warbow67" <warbow67@...>
                  > Sender: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 02:58:56
                  > To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Reply-To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?
                  >
                  > Does anyone know if the color of "cendree" (dark gray) is allowed as a tincture for SCA heraldry?
                  >
                  > Dave H
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • warbow67
                  OK, so I am learning a lot here, thanks everyone. I have uploaded a pic here which shows my first shield idea A , and now my modified one B . So tell me what
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                    OK, so I am learning a lot here, thanks everyone. I have uploaded a pic here which shows my first shield idea "A", and now my modified one "B". So tell me what I am doing wrong (or right). And what color should the broadhead be?

                    Photo: http://i56.tinypic.com/qp1nv9.jpg

                    Dave H

                    ---------------------------------------



                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dave or Megan Anhorn <danhorn3@...> wrote:



                    > If you're looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it "proper" and work
                    > around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.)
                    >
                    > So for example Argent, a grey fox passant proper, would give you a white
                    > background with a grey fox in it's natural state with 3 feet on the
                    > ground and the right forepaw raised.
                    >
                    > Gwenhyfar Stuart
                    > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
                    >
                  • bianca_di_alessandro
                    Wouldn t a proper fox just be a red one? I thought proper was used to describe a creature as it normally was in nature, and the standard fox is red color. Of
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                      Wouldn't a "proper" fox just be a red one? I thought proper was used to describe a creature as it normally was in nature, and the standard fox is red color.

                      Of course, I may be wrong.

                      Bianca

                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dave or Megan Anhorn <danhorn3@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 10/12/10 8:06 AM, warbow67 wrote:
                      > > I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?
                      > >
                      > > Dave H
                      > >
                      > > --------------------------------
                      >
                      > If you're looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it "proper" and work
                      > around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.)
                      >
                      > So for example Argent, a grey fox passant proper, would give you a white
                      > background with a grey fox in it's natural state with 3 feet on the
                      > ground and the right forepaw raised.
                      >
                      > Gwenhyfar Stuart
                      > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
                      >
                    • warbow67
                      The species is Urocyon Cinereoargenteus , the Gray Fox, not the Red Fox. Dave H
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                        The species is "Urocyon Cinereoargenteus", the Gray Fox, not the Red Fox.

                        Dave H

                        -------------------------------



                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wouldn't a "proper" fox just be a red one? I thought proper was used to describe a creature as it normally was in nature, and the standard fox is red color.
                        >
                        > Of course, I may be wrong.
                        >
                        > Bianca
                        >
                        > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dave or Megan Anhorn <danhorn3@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On 10/12/10 8:06 AM, warbow67 wrote:
                        > > > I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?
                        > > >
                        > > > Dave H
                        > > >
                        > > > --------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > If you're looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it "proper" and work
                        > > around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.)
                        > >
                        > > So for example Argent, a grey fox passant proper, would give you a white
                        > > background with a grey fox in it's natural state with 3 feet on the
                        > > ground and the right forepaw raised.
                        > >
                        > > Gwenhyfar Stuart
                        > > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
                        > >
                        >
                      • Nicole E. Miller
                        Upon looking up that particular species, you may have another problem. It is a wholy new world species and very well may not have been known (and would never
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                          Upon looking up that particular species, you may have another problem. It is a wholy new world species and very well may not have been known (and would never have been used in heraldry) in the old world.

                          Sian
                          ---- warbow67 <warbow67@...> wrote:

                          =============
                          The species is "Urocyon Cinereoargenteus", the Gray Fox, not the Red Fox.

                          Dave H

                          -------------------------------



                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Wouldn't a "proper" fox just be a red one? I thought proper was used to describe a creature as it normally was in nature, and the standard fox is red color.
                          >
                          > Of course, I may be wrong.
                          >
                          > Bianca
                          >
                          > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dave or Megan Anhorn <danhorn3@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > On 10/12/10 8:06 AM, warbow67 wrote:
                          > > > I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?
                          > > >
                          > > > Dave H
                          > > >
                          > > > --------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > If you're looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it "proper" and work
                          > > around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.)
                          > >
                          > > So for example Argent, a grey fox passant proper, would give you a white
                          > > background with a grey fox in it's natural state with 3 feet on the
                          > > ground and the right forepaw raised.
                          > >
                          > > Gwenhyfar Stuart
                          > > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
                          > >
                          >
                        • warbow67
                          Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. So it shall be just a generic fox, no colors. Now how do I go about incorporating it? Dave H
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                            Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

                            So it shall be just a generic fox, no colors. Now how do I go about incorporating it?

                            Dave H


                            -------------------------------------




                            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole E. Miller" <schnauzer2@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Upon looking up that particular species, you may have another problem. It is a wholy new world species and very well may not have been known (and would never have been used in heraldry) in the old world.
                            >
                            > Sian
                            > ---- warbow67 <warbow67@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > =============
                            > The species is "Urocyon Cinereoargenteus", the Gray Fox, not the Red Fox.
                            >
                            > Dave H
                            >
                            > -------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Wouldn't a "proper" fox just be a red one? I thought proper was used to describe a creature as it normally was in nature, and the standard fox is red color.
                            > >
                            > > Of course, I may be wrong.
                            > >
                            > > Bianca
                            > >
                            > > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dave or Megan Anhorn <danhorn3@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > On 10/12/10 8:06 AM, warbow67 wrote:
                            > > > > I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Dave H
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > If you're looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it "proper" and work
                            > > > around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.)
                            > > >
                            > > > So for example Argent, a grey fox passant proper, would give you a white
                            > > > background with a grey fox in it's natural state with 3 feet on the
                            > > > ground and the right forepaw raised.
                            > > >
                            > > > Gwenhyfar Stuart
                            > > > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Nicole E. Miller
                            At this point you really need to consult with your local herald. You are going to have to go through them (or one of the at-large heralds in your area) in the
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                              At this point you really need to consult with your local herald. You are going to have to go through them (or one of the at-large heralds in your area) in the end anyway. Any proposed device will have to be conflict checked visually and by the blazon (written description in herald-speak) against everything else that has ever been registered.

                              Sian
                              ---- warbow67 <warbow67@...> wrote:

                              =============
                              Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

                              So it shall be just a generic fox, no colors. Now how do I go about incorporating it?

                              Dave H


                              -------------------------------------




                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole E. Miller" <schnauzer2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Upon looking up that particular species, you may have another problem. It is a wholy new world species and very well may not have been known (and would never have been used in heraldry) in the old world.
                              >
                              > Sian
                              > ---- warbow67 <warbow67@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > =============
                              > The species is "Urocyon Cinereoargenteus", the Gray Fox, not the Red Fox.
                              >
                              > Dave H
                              >
                              > -------------------------------
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bianca_di_alessandro <no_reply@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Wouldn't a "proper" fox just be a red one? I thought proper was used to describe a creature as it normally was in nature, and the standard fox is red color.
                              > >
                              > > Of course, I may be wrong.
                              > >
                              > > Bianca
                              > >
                              > > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dave or Megan Anhorn <danhorn3@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > On 10/12/10 8:06 AM, warbow67 wrote:
                              > > > > I have read in a few places that cendree (gray) is a historical heraldry color, but is there an specific SCA rule against it? I am looking to use a gray fox, if not gray then what color should it be?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dave H
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --------------------------------
                              > > >
                              > > > If you're looking to use a Grey Fox, you can blazon it "proper" and work
                              > > > around the listing of colours previously provided (which is accurate.)
                              > > >
                              > > > So for example Argent, a grey fox passant proper, would give you a white
                              > > > background with a grey fox in it's natural state with 3 feet on the
                              > > > ground and the right forepaw raised.
                              > > >
                              > > > Gwenhyfar Stuart
                              > > > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • D'vorah bint al-Attar
                              ... I m CCing my response to this, sending it to my Pelican master who is a herald and very knowledgeable. I m still such a rank beginner that I may be either
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                                On 12 Oct 2010, at 9:05 AM, warbow67 wrote:

                                > OK, so I am learning a lot here, thanks everyone. I have uploaded a pic here which shows my first shield idea "A", and now my modified one "B". So tell me what I am doing wrong (or right). And what color should the broadhead be?
                                >
                                > Photo: http://i56.tinypic.com/qp1nv9.jpg
                                >
                                > Dave H

                                I'm CCing my response to this, sending it to my Pelican master who is a herald and very knowledgeable. I'm still such a rank beginner that I may be either misremembering the "rules" or just not aware of something that could render my advice less than useful. Master Albrecht, could you correct me, please? I hope to learn.

                                First of all, Dave, I love the look of this device. It looks very "correct" to my (admittedly, less than well-educated) heraldic eye; and also very personal, and it's got a lot of visual appeal as well. In looking at both your proposed devices, I feel like there's a story behind each of the elements, rather than just "I thought it looked cool." Visual appeal is important, but shields that tell stories or that hint to a persona's family history are so much cooler than shields that only take aesthetics into consideration. For what it's worth, I like that strong black broadhead slightly better than the green in device A, because it stands out so much more.

                                Secondly, since your 'field' (background color) is white, I *think* you probably wouldn't be able to use a white or grey fox on it, even with the outlines, because there's not enough visual contrast from more than just a few feet away. What will be more likely to pass is a black fox on a white background, or a white fox on a black background. "Argent" is what they call white, silver, and in some cases light grey; and the fact that they often use the same word for grey as for white and silver may indicate that within our period, they didn't see enough difference. I notice that you're calling yourself Annain the Graye, though, so you may feel very strongly about maintaining the grey color of the fox. If you make it a darker shade of grey, and call it "a grey fox proper," that may also satisfy the heraldic college. I hope so, because it looks really good. Very striking, apart from the low contrast of fox to field, and not likely to be too close to anyone else's, I'd guess.
                                -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                                D'vorah bint al-Attar
                                Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
                                Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                                dvorah@...
                                http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
                                Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
                                -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                              • Dave or Megan Anhorn
                                ... New world species are allowable as there is documentable late period heraldry with new world charges on it. Gwenhyfar Stuart
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                                  On 10/12/10 11:50 AM, Nicole E. Miller wrote:
                                  > Upon looking up that particular species, you may have another problem. It is a wholy new world species and very well may not have been known (and would never have been used in heraldry) in the old world.
                                  >
                                  > Sian
                                  > ---- warbow67<warbow67@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > =============
                                  > The species is "Urocyon Cinereoargenteus", the Gray Fox, not the Red Fox.
                                  >
                                  > Dave H
                                  >
                                  > -------------------------------

                                  New world species are allowable as there is documentable late period
                                  heraldry with new world charges on it.

                                  Gwenhyfar Stuart
                                  > > Starleaf Gate Pursuivant
                                • warbow67
                                  Thank you, I m glad you like it. There is a story behind the elements and the whole color scheme. The persona I am building is called Annain the Graye .
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                                    Thank you, I'm glad you like it. There is a story behind the "elements" and the whole color scheme.

                                    The persona I am building is called "Annain the Graye". Annain is the original ancient form of my surname though it is rarely known (it is believed to go back to about 800 AD).

                                    My persona is Hiberno/Norman of the late 12th century. He is originally from Chester, England, and was a levied archer in the Anglo-Norman army in the Second Crusade. After retiring from the war he set up shop as a leatherworker, specifically a "bottel" maker. He eventually acquired the nickname of "the Graye Fox" and uses a fox as a personal badge.

                                    In 1169 in his mid-forties he sought a new life and accepted King Henry II's appeal for settlers to join Lord Richard "Strongbow" de Clare's invasion of Ireland, and settled in Wexford to start his new life.

                                    Given this history I chose the colors of white and green to represent the livery colors of the Chester archers of the time, and a broadhead as well, and a fox as his personal badge creature. The border is in wavy form to represent his travel across the Irish Sea.

                                    Seeing now that a "azure" colored fox can be considered silver (close enough to gray), and that it cannot be on a azure field, I wonder if the device should be split in half and the top be "counter-posed" with the azure fox passant on a vert field with azure border, leaving the lower half as is. But knowing color has symbolism what would different colors of broadheads mean? (so I can narrow my selection).

                                    Thanks again,
                                    Dave H


                                    ---------------------------------



                                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, D'vorah bint al-Attar <dvorah@...> wrote:


                                    > I'm CCing my response to this, sending it to my Pelican master who is a herald and very knowledgeable. I'm still such a rank beginner that I may be either misremembering the "rules" or just not aware of something that could render my advice less than useful. Master Albrecht, could you correct me, please? I hope to learn.
                                    >
                                    > First of all, Dave, I love the look of this device. It looks very "correct" to my (admittedly, less than well-educated) heraldic eye; and also very personal, and it's got a lot of visual appeal as well. In looking at both your proposed devices, I feel like there's a story behind each of the elements, rather than just "I thought it looked cool." Visual appeal is important, but shields that tell stories or that hint to a persona's family history are so much cooler than shields that only take aesthetics into consideration. For what it's worth, I like that strong black broadhead slightly better than the green in device A, because it stands out so much more.
                                    >
                                    > Secondly, since your 'field' (background color) is white, I *think* you probably wouldn't be able to use a white or grey fox on it, even with the outlines, because there's not enough visual contrast from more than just a few feet away. What will be more likely to pass is a black fox on a white background, or a white fox on a black background. "Argent" is what they call white, silver, and in some cases light grey; and the fact that they often use the same word for grey as for white and silver may indicate that within our period, they didn't see enough difference. I notice that you're calling yourself Annain the Graye, though, so you may feel very strongly about maintaining the grey color of the fox. If you make it a darker shade of grey, and call it "a grey fox proper," that may also satisfy the heraldic college. I hope so, because it looks really good. Very striking, apart from the low contrast of fox to field, and not likely to be too close to anyone else's, I'd guess.
                                    > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                                    > D'vorah bint al-Attar
                                    > Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
                                    > Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                                    > dvorah@...
                                    > http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
                                    > Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
                                    > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                                    >
                                  • Stefan li Rous
                                    Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov asked: Or black or silver? I guess it depends upon the
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                                      Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov asked:
                                      <<< wouldnt that (ie: grey) be white as far as blazoning is concerned? >>>

                                      Or black or silver? I guess it depends upon the actual shade of the grey. Hence the reason that the number of heraldic colors is restricted.

                                      Stefan

                                      --------
                                      THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                      Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                                      **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                                    • warbow67
                                      My mistake, Argent means white or silver, not Azure . I meant to say Argent . This heraldry stuff is complicated..... Dave H
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                                        My mistake, "Argent" means white or silver, not "Azure". I meant to say "Argent". This heraldry stuff is complicated.....

                                        Dave H
                                      • christopher chastain
                                        Blame the French Yours in Humble Service, Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                                          Blame the French





                                          Yours in Humble Service,
                                          Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                                          Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent

                                          "Though I walk in the valley of death I shall fear no evil for my sword and shield are with me!"





                                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: warbow67@...
                                          Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 04:07:20 +0000
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] SCA Heraldry tinctures?




























                                          My mistake, "Argent" means white or silver, not "Azure". I meant to say "Argent". This heraldry stuff is complicated.....



                                          Dave H


















                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • shandra_
                                          Since you cannot use a gray (argent/silver/white)fox on a white background (they d blur together on a shield viewed from 100 yards away), I ve come up with a
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 12, 2010
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                                            Since you cannot use a gray (argent/silver/white)fox on a white background (they'd blur together on a shield viewed from 100 yards away), I've come up with a couple of alternatives for you.

                                            Please note, I have not checked either of these for any conflict with existing devices, so should you like one, you should contact your local herald to check for you.

                                            And pardon my quick 5 minute "sketches".

                                            http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox1.jpg
                                            http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox2.jpg (my fav)

                                            ~Alexandra Vazquez de Granada
                                            (called Shandra)
                                            Barony of Coeur d'Ennui, Calontir
                                          • warbow67
                                            Actually the second one is exactly what I am working on right now (though with a tightened up wave pattern on the border). Dave H
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 13, 2010
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                                              Actually the second one is exactly what I am working on right now (though with a tightened up wave pattern on the border).

                                              Dave H


                                              -------------------------------------


                                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, shandra_ <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Since you cannot use a gray (argent/silver/white)fox on a white background (they'd blur together on a shield viewed from 100 yards away), I've come up with a couple of alternatives for you.
                                              >
                                              > Please note, I have not checked either of these for any conflict with existing devices, so should you like one, you should contact your local herald to check for you.
                                              >
                                              > And pardon my quick 5 minute "sketches".
                                              >
                                              > http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox1.jpg
                                              > http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox2.jpg (my fav)
                                              >
                                              > ~Alexandra Vazquez de Granada
                                              > (called Shandra)
                                              > Barony of Coeur d'Ennui, Calontir
                                              >
                                            • bianca_di_alessandro
                                              I m not sure if you can tighten up the wavy edge treatment beyond what Alexandra did. Edge treatments are generally supposed to be drawn big, bold and
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 13, 2010
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                                                I'm not sure if you can "tighten up" the wavy edge treatment beyond what Alexandra did. Edge treatments are generally supposed to be drawn "big, bold and butch" as someone put it, with fewer, bigger waves rather than a large number of small ones.

                                                I'd agree with the folks that suggest discussing this with a herald before you get set on any one design. It looks good, though.

                                                Bianca

                                                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "warbow67" <warbow67@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Actually the second one is exactly what I am working on right now (though with a tightened up wave pattern on the border).
                                                >
                                                > Dave H
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, shandra_ <no_reply@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Since you cannot use a gray (argent/silver/white)fox on a white background (they'd blur together on a shield viewed from 100 yards away), I've come up with a couple of alternatives for you.
                                                > >
                                                > > Please note, I have not checked either of these for any conflict with existing devices, so should you like one, you should contact your local herald to check for you.
                                                > >
                                                > > And pardon my quick 5 minute "sketches".
                                                > >
                                                > > http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox1.jpg
                                                > > http://shandra.webs.com/Heraldry/fox2.jpg (my fav)
                                                > >
                                                > > ~Alexandra Vazquez de Granada
                                                > > (called Shandra)
                                                > > Barony of Coeur d'Ennui, Calontir
                                                > >
                                                >
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