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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

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  • Susan Farmer
    ... Peppers are new world plants -- as are *most* Solaneaceous plants. Eggplant is native to Asia, but peppers (not /Piper nigrum/, aka Black pepper), tomatoes
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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      Quoting Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>:

      > My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there
      > have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been
      > considered another Chilli?
      >

      Peppers are new world plants -- as are *most* Solaneaceous plants.
      Eggplant is native to Asia, but peppers (not /Piper nigrum/, aka Black
      pepper), tomatoes and potatoes are all new world.

      jerusha the botanist
      -----
      Susan Farmer
      sfarmer@...
      Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
      Division of Science and Math
      http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
    • christopher chastain
      Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats false that Europeans had a
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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        Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats false that Europeans had a crop that was very similar to Maize and of the same family. Now I know I was educated in SC but could someone nail this debate to a close for me please.





        Yours in Humble Service,
        Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
        Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent


        "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!"








        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        From: sfarmer@...
        Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:28:36 -0400
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question





        Quoting Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>:

        > My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there
        > have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been
        > considered another Chilli?
        >

        Peppers are new world plants -- as are *most* Solaneaceous plants.
        Eggplant is native to Asia, but peppers (not /Piper nigrum/, aka Black
        pepper), tomatoes and potatoes are all new world.

        jerusha the botanist
        -----
        Susan Farmer
        sfarmer@...
        Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
        Division of Science and Math
        http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/





        _________________________________________________________________
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      • Susan Farmer
        ... Corn is a grass -- so yeah, there was *LOTS* of stuff in Europe from the same family. But Corn /Zea mays/ is indeed native to Central and South America.
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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          Quoting christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>:

          >
          > Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn
          > or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats
          > false that Europeans had a crop that was very similar to Maize and
          > of the same family. Now I know I was educated in SC but could
          > someone nail this debate to a close for me please.
          >

          Corn is a grass -- so yeah, there was *LOTS* of stuff in Europe from
          the same family. But Corn /Zea mays/ is indeed native to Central and
          South America. When it was introduced, it was seen mostly as a forage
          crop. There are *still* places in Europe where folks won't eat corn
          (now, that may be a very localized phenomenon) because it's perceived
          as "animal food." Columbus brought some back with him.

          The book that we use as a text (why, no, SCAdians aren't book junkies,
          why do you ask?) is _Economic Botany: Plants in Our World_ by Simpson
          and Ogorzaly.

          jerusha
          -----
          Susan Farmer
          sfarmer@...
          Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
          Division of Science and Math
          http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
        • Bambi TBNL
          I so LOVE talk like this!!!  Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL I am made for great things by GOD and walk with Pride!!!! Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad see me
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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            I so LOVE talk like this!!!
             Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL


            I am made for great things by GOD
            and walk with Pride!!!!
            Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad
            see me dance
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0




            ________________________________
            From: Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 9:27:14 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

             
            Quoth "Summer":
            > My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have bee
            > n Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered anothe
            > r Chilli?

            Japalenos are native to Mexico, so they wouldn't have shown up
            in Europe until the end of our period. The city that they are
            named after, Xalapa, was visited by the Spanish as early as 1519,
            so it's certainly possible that one of the explorers could've
            taken some back with him, though I don't know of any positive
            evidence to this effect. The earliest reference in English to
            the pepper that the Oxford English Dictionary (s.v. jalap) has
            is from 1675.

            -Aryanhwy

            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • christopher chastain
            Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it! Yours in Humble Service,
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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              Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!





              Yours in Humble Service,
              Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
              Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent


              "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!"








              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              From: sfarmer@...
              Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:50:12 -0400
              Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question





              Quoting christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>:

              >
              > Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn
              > or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats
              > false that Europeans had a crop that was very similar to Maize and
              > of the same family. Now I know I was educated in SC but could
              > someone nail this debate to a close for me please.
              >

              Corn is a grass -- so yeah, there was *LOTS* of stuff in Europe from
              the same family. But Corn /Zea mays/ is indeed native to Central and
              South America. When it was introduced, it was seen mostly as a forage
              crop. There are *still* places in Europe where folks won't eat corn
              (now, that may be a very localized phenomenon) because it's perceived
              as "animal food." Columbus brought some back with him.

              The book that we use as a text (why, no, SCAdians aren't book junkies,
              why do you ask?) is _Economic Botany: Plants in Our World_ by Simpson
              and Ogorzaly.

              jerusha
              -----
              Susan Farmer
              sfarmer@...
              Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
              Division of Science and Math
              http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/





              _________________________________________________________________
              Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kristen Praiswater
              They would have been considered a chili.  Most of of our peppers that we have now were new world foods back then.  I help run a kitchen demo, so I have to
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                They would have been considered a chili.  Most of of our peppers that we have now were new world foods back then.  I help run a kitchen demo, so I have to know my stuff.  Hope this helps your debate.
                 
                Sherrif of Seleone
                Valentina Elisabetta della Luna
                aka
                Kristen Praiswater
                 


                --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...> wrote:


                From: Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>
                Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 12:20 AM


                 



                My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered another Chilli?











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kyla
                I think part of the confusion comes from the use of terms. Historically, the word corn has sometimes meant the most common grain grown in an area - I m a
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                  I think part of the confusion comes from the use of terms.

                  Historically, the word corn has sometimes meant the most common grain grown
                  in an area - I'm a little fuzzy on the details of what constitutes an area -
                  so the word could be referring to wheat or barley, or any other grain.

                  The new world only grew one grain crop - maize - so that was the 'corn' of
                  the region.

                  You can see how that might have helped to confuse the issue.
                  Americans say 'corn' when they mean 'maize', and Europeans think they
                  understand the question, but they might be answering by talking about rye or
                  millet.

                  It always helps to define the terms used.

                  Tabitha Pennywarden
                  Ravenslake, Midlands
                  Middle Kingdom

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
                  Behalf Of christopher chastain
                  Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 11:03 AM
                  To: SCA New Comers
                  Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question




                  Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have
                  the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!

                  Yours in Humble Service,
                  Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                  Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a
                  mullet of eight points argent

                  "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!"


                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  From: sfarmer@...
                  Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:50:12 -0400
                  Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

                  Quoting christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>:

                  >
                  > Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn
                  > or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats
                  > false that Europeans had a crop that was very similar to Maize and
                  > of the same family. Now I know I was educated in SC but could
                  > someone nail this debate to a close for me please.
                  >

                  Corn is a grass -- so yeah, there was *LOTS* of stuff in Europe from
                  the same family. But Corn /Zea mays/ is indeed native to Central and
                  South America. When it was introduced, it was seen mostly as a forage
                  crop. There are *still* places in Europe where folks won't eat corn
                  (now, that may be a very localized phenomenon) because it's perceived
                  as "animal food." Columbus brought some back with him.

                  The book that we use as a text (why, no, SCAdians aren't book junkies,
                  why do you ask?) is _Economic Botany: Plants in Our World_ by Simpson
                  and Ogorzaly.

                  jerusha
                  -----
                  Susan Farmer
                  sfarmer@...
                  Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
                  Division of Science and Math
                  http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


                  __________________________________________________________
                  Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
                  inbox.

                  http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
                  L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                • Nicole Davis
                  Actually yes it did because it gave me a new area to research into to get a decent time frame for when chili s came to europe, around 1493 when Columbus came
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                    Actually yes it did because it gave me a new area to research into to get a decent time frame for when chili's came to europe, around 1493 when Columbus came back after visiting The New World again





                    ________________________________
                    From: Kristen Praiswater <spellsinger28@...>
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 9:32:33 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question


                    They would have been considered a chili. Most of of our peppers that we have now were new world foods back then. I help run a kitchen demo, so I have to know my stuff. Hope this helps your debate.

                    Sherrif of Seleone
                    Valentina Elisabetta della Luna
                    aka
                    Kristen Praiswater


                    --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...> wrote:

                    From: Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>
                    Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 12:20 AM



                    My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered another Chilli?

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kristen Praiswater
                    I m glad it helped you.    ... From: Nicole Davis Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question To:
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                      I'm glad it helped you. 
                       


                      --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Nicole Davis <cowboysladygoneinsane@...> wrote:


                      From: Nicole Davis <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 12:41 PM


                       



                      Actually yes it did because it gave me a new area to research into to get a decent time frame for when chili's came to europe, around 1493 when Columbus came back after visiting The New World again

                      ________________________________
                      From: Kristen Praiswater <spellsinger28@...>
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 9:32:33 AM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

                      They would have been considered a chili. Most of of our peppers that we have now were new world foods back then. I help run a kitchen demo, so I have to know my stuff. Hope this helps your debate.

                      Sherrif of Seleone
                      Valentina Elisabetta della Luna
                      aka
                      Kristen Praiswater


                      --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...> wrote:

                      From: Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>
                      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 12:20 AM

                      My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered another Chilli?

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                        <<


                        Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!

                        Yours in Humble Service,
                        Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                        Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent

                        "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!">>


                        There is also the fact that the English refer to wheat and similar grains as "corn". So you may well run into the word "corn" in a period source, but most likely it refers to a variety of wheat rather than to maize.

                        Brangwana Morgan
                        Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                        Lancaster, PA




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bambi TBNL
                        from the dept of boring factoids you never wanted to know if you take a modern german translation of shakespear and an orignal writing of shakes pear...it is
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                          from the dept of boring factoids you never wanted to know
                          if you take a modern german translation of shakespear and
                          an orignal writing of shakes pear...it is pretty sclose word for word...even a lot of the grammer
                          the german  word for grain is Korn
                           the german word for corn is Maize 
                          In germany , Maize is used as annimal fodder because it doe not grow of a humanly marketable quality there.
                          in the late 1940s at the end of WWII when there were no farms with enough to feed the german citizens while they rebuilt their country, the US ,hearing the plea of the  pupolace of war ravage germany, sent a humanitarian gift of corn/maize to feed them.
                          whether accidentally or deliberately , the letter from the newly formed govt had been tranlated incorrectly. in the 1970's I knew people who had been on the receiving end of that debacle and who still could not understand how the US has so callously sent animal fodder to a country whose children were starving.
                          yeah out of period sort of but the language mishap seeds were definately planted in period.Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL


                          I am made for great things by GOD
                          and walk with Pride!!!!
                          Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad
                          see me dance
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0




                          ________________________________
                          From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 5:16:47 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

                           


                          <<

                          Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!

                          Yours in Humble Service,
                          Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                          Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent

                          "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!">>

                          There is also the fact that the English refer to wheat and similar grains as "corn". So you may well run into the word "corn" in a period source, but most likely it refers to a variety of wheat rather than to maize.

                          Brangwana Morgan
                          Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                          Lancaster, PA

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • julian wilson
                          Bambi, some of us are well aware of the pitfalls of foreign languages which contain words like US or UK English, but have altered meanings. Chuckle!! When I
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 17, 2010
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                            Bambi, some of us are well aware of the pitfalls of foreign languages which contain words like US or UK English, but have altered meanings. Chuckle!!
                            When I first visited France as a schoolboy, " when the world was young, and the Queen was new, and there were no unclean ideals in the land" [points for anyone recdognising the quotation] -  I stayed with a VIP upper-Middle-Class  family who owned a string of Breweries and Bars throughout Metropolitan France. One of the French words for a [drinking] Bar is "brasserie". I kept on confusing it with "brassiere" to their great amusement, and my considerable embarrassment.
                            Then there are the opportunities to make bi-lingual puns - as in "in Germany, fast food is the würst that can happen to you!" ["würst" being the German word for sausage].
                             When I learned my German, at school over 60 years ago, one of the first nouns we were taught in preparation for a School Exchange Trip to Solingen, was  "Abort" so that if we were "caught-short", - we could ask for directions to the nearest Toilet. Andhow  to find a Policeman - or the local Police Station - it was "SchüPo" or "SchüPoHaus" ["ShüPo" bering short for "SchützPolizei"]
                            Returning to Germany to work, after an absence of decades, I found my school-era German came flooding back - but noticed that many words - "Abort" and "SchüPo" amongst them - had either gone out of use entirely - or changed their meanings.
                            More embarassment while i updated my vocab. and my idioms!
                            However, a compensation [especially when visiting Museums] was that I'd not forgotten how to both write and read the "alte Deutsche Scrift" [still in wide user during my school-age visits] - to the considerable surprise of many Germans younger than I - who had never learned how to do this.

                            Lord Matthewe Baker,
                             [still amused ny the memories!]

                            --- On Thu, 17/6/10, Bambi TBNL <hippy_dippy_dancer@...> wrote:

                            From: Bambi TBNL <hippy_dippy_dancer@...>
                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, 17 June, 2010, 2:15







                             









                            from the dept of boring factoids you never wanted to know

                            if you take a modern german translation of shakespear and

                            an orignal writing of shakes pear...it is pretty sclose word for word...even a lot of the grammer

                            the german  word for grain is Korn

                             the german word for corn is Maize 

                            In germany , Maize is used as annimal fodder because it doe not grow of a humanly marketable quality there.

                            in the late 1940s at the end of WWII when there were no farms with enough to feed the german citizens while they rebuilt their country, the US ,hearing the plea of the  pupolace of war ravage germany, sent a humanitarian gift of corn/maize to feed them.

                            whether accidentally or deliberately , the letter from the newly formed govt had been tranlated incorrectly. in the 1970's I knew people who had been on the receiving end of that debacle and who still could not understand how the US has so callously sent animal fodder to a country whose children were starving.

                            yeah out of period sort of but the language mishap seeds were definately planted in period.Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL



                            I am made for great things by GOD

                            and walk with Pride!!!!

                            Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad

                            see me dance

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0



                            ________________________________

                            From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>

                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com

                            Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 5:16:47 PM

                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question



                             



                            <<



                            Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!



                            Yours in Humble Service,

                            Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov

                            Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent



                            "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!">>



                            There is also the fact that the English refer to wheat and similar grains as "corn". So you may well run into the word "corn" in a period source, but most likely it refers to a variety of wheat rather than to maize.



                            Brangwana Morgan

                            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom

                            Lancaster, PA



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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