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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

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  • Sara L Uckelman
    ... Japalenos are native to Mexico, so they wouldn t have shown up in Europe until the end of our period. The city that they are named after, Xalapa, was
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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      Quoth "Summer":
      > My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have bee
      > n Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered anothe
      > r Chilli?

      Japalenos are native to Mexico, so they wouldn't have shown up
      in Europe until the end of our period. The city that they are
      named after, Xalapa, was visited by the Spanish as early as 1519,
      so it's certainly possible that one of the explorers could've
      taken some back with him, though I don't know of any positive
      evidence to this effect. The earliest reference in English to
      the pepper that the Oxford English Dictionary (s.v. jalap) has
      is from 1675.

      -Aryanhwy




      --
      vita sine literis mors est
      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
    • Justinos Tekton called Justin
      ... I didn t know they were named after a city! Thanks for an interesting bit of trivia. Kind regards, Justin ....who loves spicy food --
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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        On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 15:27 +0200, Sara L Uckelman wrote:
        > The city that they are
        > named after, Xalapa,


        I didn't know they were named after a city! Thanks for an interesting
        bit of trivia.

        Kind regards,

        Justin
        ....who loves spicy food

        --
        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
        Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
        fesswise reversed sable.

        justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
      • Susan Farmer
        ... Peppers are new world plants -- as are *most* Solaneaceous plants. Eggplant is native to Asia, but peppers (not /Piper nigrum/, aka Black pepper), tomatoes
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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          Quoting Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>:

          > My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there
          > have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been
          > considered another Chilli?
          >

          Peppers are new world plants -- as are *most* Solaneaceous plants.
          Eggplant is native to Asia, but peppers (not /Piper nigrum/, aka Black
          pepper), tomatoes and potatoes are all new world.

          jerusha the botanist
          -----
          Susan Farmer
          sfarmer@...
          Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
          Division of Science and Math
          http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
        • christopher chastain
          Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats false that Europeans had a
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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            Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats false that Europeans had a crop that was very similar to Maize and of the same family. Now I know I was educated in SC but could someone nail this debate to a close for me please.





            Yours in Humble Service,
            Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
            Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent


            "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!"








            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            From: sfarmer@...
            Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:28:36 -0400
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question





            Quoting Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>:

            > My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there
            > have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been
            > considered another Chilli?
            >

            Peppers are new world plants -- as are *most* Solaneaceous plants.
            Eggplant is native to Asia, but peppers (not /Piper nigrum/, aka Black
            pepper), tomatoes and potatoes are all new world.

            jerusha the botanist
            -----
            Susan Farmer
            sfarmer@...
            Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
            Division of Science and Math
            http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/





            _________________________________________________________________
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          • Susan Farmer
            ... Corn is a grass -- so yeah, there was *LOTS* of stuff in Europe from the same family. But Corn /Zea mays/ is indeed native to Central and South America.
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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              Quoting christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>:

              >
              > Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn
              > or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats
              > false that Europeans had a crop that was very similar to Maize and
              > of the same family. Now I know I was educated in SC but could
              > someone nail this debate to a close for me please.
              >

              Corn is a grass -- so yeah, there was *LOTS* of stuff in Europe from
              the same family. But Corn /Zea mays/ is indeed native to Central and
              South America. When it was introduced, it was seen mostly as a forage
              crop. There are *still* places in Europe where folks won't eat corn
              (now, that may be a very localized phenomenon) because it's perceived
              as "animal food." Columbus brought some back with him.

              The book that we use as a text (why, no, SCAdians aren't book junkies,
              why do you ask?) is _Economic Botany: Plants in Our World_ by Simpson
              and Ogorzaly.

              jerusha
              -----
              Susan Farmer
              sfarmer@...
              Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
              Division of Science and Math
              http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
            • Bambi TBNL
              I so LOVE talk like this!!!  Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL I am made for great things by GOD and walk with Pride!!!! Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad see me
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                I so LOVE talk like this!!!
                 Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL


                I am made for great things by GOD
                and walk with Pride!!!!
                Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad
                see me dance
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0




                ________________________________
                From: Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 9:27:14 AM
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

                 
                Quoth "Summer":
                > My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have bee
                > n Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered anothe
                > r Chilli?

                Japalenos are native to Mexico, so they wouldn't have shown up
                in Europe until the end of our period. The city that they are
                named after, Xalapa, was visited by the Spanish as early as 1519,
                so it's certainly possible that one of the explorers could've
                taken some back with him, though I don't know of any positive
                evidence to this effect. The earliest reference in English to
                the pepper that the Oxford English Dictionary (s.v. jalap) has
                is from 1675.

                -Aryanhwy

                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • christopher chastain
                Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it! Yours in Humble Service,
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                  Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!





                  Yours in Humble Service,
                  Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                  Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent


                  "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!"








                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  From: sfarmer@...
                  Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:50:12 -0400
                  Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question





                  Quoting christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>:

                  >
                  > Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn
                  > or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats
                  > false that Europeans had a crop that was very similar to Maize and
                  > of the same family. Now I know I was educated in SC but could
                  > someone nail this debate to a close for me please.
                  >

                  Corn is a grass -- so yeah, there was *LOTS* of stuff in Europe from
                  the same family. But Corn /Zea mays/ is indeed native to Central and
                  South America. When it was introduced, it was seen mostly as a forage
                  crop. There are *still* places in Europe where folks won't eat corn
                  (now, that may be a very localized phenomenon) because it's perceived
                  as "animal food." Columbus brought some back with him.

                  The book that we use as a text (why, no, SCAdians aren't book junkies,
                  why do you ask?) is _Economic Botany: Plants in Our World_ by Simpson
                  and Ogorzaly.

                  jerusha
                  -----
                  Susan Farmer
                  sfarmer@...
                  Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
                  Division of Science and Math
                  http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/





                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
                  http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kristen Praiswater
                  They would have been considered a chili.  Most of of our peppers that we have now were new world foods back then.  I help run a kitchen demo, so I have to
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                    They would have been considered a chili.  Most of of our peppers that we have now were new world foods back then.  I help run a kitchen demo, so I have to know my stuff.  Hope this helps your debate.
                     
                    Sherrif of Seleone
                    Valentina Elisabetta della Luna
                    aka
                    Kristen Praiswater
                     


                    --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...> wrote:


                    From: Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>
                    Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 12:20 AM


                     



                    My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered another Chilli?











                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kyla
                    I think part of the confusion comes from the use of terms. Historically, the word corn has sometimes meant the most common grain grown in an area - I m a
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                      I think part of the confusion comes from the use of terms.

                      Historically, the word corn has sometimes meant the most common grain grown
                      in an area - I'm a little fuzzy on the details of what constitutes an area -
                      so the word could be referring to wheat or barley, or any other grain.

                      The new world only grew one grain crop - maize - so that was the 'corn' of
                      the region.

                      You can see how that might have helped to confuse the issue.
                      Americans say 'corn' when they mean 'maize', and Europeans think they
                      understand the question, but they might be answering by talking about rye or
                      millet.

                      It always helps to define the terms used.

                      Tabitha Pennywarden
                      Ravenslake, Midlands
                      Middle Kingdom

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
                      Behalf Of christopher chastain
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 11:03 AM
                      To: SCA New Comers
                      Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question




                      Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have
                      the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!

                      Yours in Humble Service,
                      Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                      Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a
                      mullet of eight points argent

                      "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!"


                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      From: sfarmer@...
                      Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:50:12 -0400
                      Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

                      Quoting christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>:

                      >
                      > Now this brings a question to my mind. I have had folks tell me corn
                      > or maize was new world only and I have had some folks say thats
                      > false that Europeans had a crop that was very similar to Maize and
                      > of the same family. Now I know I was educated in SC but could
                      > someone nail this debate to a close for me please.
                      >

                      Corn is a grass -- so yeah, there was *LOTS* of stuff in Europe from
                      the same family. But Corn /Zea mays/ is indeed native to Central and
                      South America. When it was introduced, it was seen mostly as a forage
                      crop. There are *still* places in Europe where folks won't eat corn
                      (now, that may be a very localized phenomenon) because it's perceived
                      as "animal food." Columbus brought some back with him.

                      The book that we use as a text (why, no, SCAdians aren't book junkies,
                      why do you ask?) is _Economic Botany: Plants in Our World_ by Simpson
                      and Ogorzaly.

                      jerusha
                      -----
                      Susan Farmer
                      sfarmer@...
                      Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
                      Division of Science and Math
                      http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


                      __________________________________________________________
                      Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
                      inbox.

                      http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
                      L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Nicole Davis
                      Actually yes it did because it gave me a new area to research into to get a decent time frame for when chili s came to europe, around 1493 when Columbus came
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                        Actually yes it did because it gave me a new area to research into to get a decent time frame for when chili's came to europe, around 1493 when Columbus came back after visiting The New World again





                        ________________________________
                        From: Kristen Praiswater <spellsinger28@...>
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 9:32:33 AM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question


                        They would have been considered a chili. Most of of our peppers that we have now were new world foods back then. I help run a kitchen demo, so I have to know my stuff. Hope this helps your debate.

                        Sherrif of Seleone
                        Valentina Elisabetta della Luna
                        aka
                        Kristen Praiswater


                        --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...> wrote:

                        From: Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>
                        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 12:20 AM



                        My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered another Chilli?

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kristen Praiswater
                        I m glad it helped you.    ... From: Nicole Davis Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question To:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                          I'm glad it helped you. 
                           


                          --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Nicole Davis <cowboysladygoneinsane@...> wrote:


                          From: Nicole Davis <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 12:41 PM


                           



                          Actually yes it did because it gave me a new area to research into to get a decent time frame for when chili's came to europe, around 1493 when Columbus came back after visiting The New World again

                          ________________________________
                          From: Kristen Praiswater <spellsinger28@...>
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 9:32:33 AM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

                          They would have been considered a chili. Most of of our peppers that we have now were new world foods back then. I help run a kitchen demo, so I have to know my stuff. Hope this helps your debate.

                          Sherrif of Seleone
                          Valentina Elisabetta della Luna
                          aka
                          Kristen Praiswater


                          --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...> wrote:

                          From: Summer <cowboysladygoneinsane@...>
                          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 12:20 AM

                          My husband and I were just having an interesting debate. Would there have been Jalapeno's in Period Europe? Or would they have just been considered another Chilli?

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                            <<


                            Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!

                            Yours in Humble Service,
                            Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                            Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent

                            "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!">>


                            There is also the fact that the English refer to wheat and similar grains as "corn". So you may well run into the word "corn" in a period source, but most likely it refers to a variety of wheat rather than to maize.

                            Brangwana Morgan
                            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                            Lancaster, PA




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bambi TBNL
                            from the dept of boring factoids you never wanted to know if you take a modern german translation of shakespear and an orignal writing of shakes pear...it is
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 16, 2010
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                              from the dept of boring factoids you never wanted to know
                              if you take a modern german translation of shakespear and
                              an orignal writing of shakes pear...it is pretty sclose word for word...even a lot of the grammer
                              the german  word for grain is Korn
                               the german word for corn is Maize 
                              In germany , Maize is used as annimal fodder because it doe not grow of a humanly marketable quality there.
                              in the late 1940s at the end of WWII when there were no farms with enough to feed the german citizens while they rebuilt their country, the US ,hearing the plea of the  pupolace of war ravage germany, sent a humanitarian gift of corn/maize to feed them.
                              whether accidentally or deliberately , the letter from the newly formed govt had been tranlated incorrectly. in the 1970's I knew people who had been on the receiving end of that debacle and who still could not understand how the US has so callously sent animal fodder to a country whose children were starving.
                              yeah out of period sort of but the language mishap seeds were definately planted in period.Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL


                              I am made for great things by GOD
                              and walk with Pride!!!!
                              Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad
                              see me dance
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0




                              ________________________________
                              From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>
                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 5:16:47 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question

                               


                              <<

                              Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!

                              Yours in Humble Service,
                              Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
                              Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent

                              "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!">>

                              There is also the fact that the English refer to wheat and similar grains as "corn". So you may well run into the word "corn" in a period source, but most likely it refers to a variety of wheat rather than to maize.

                              Brangwana Morgan
                              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                              Lancaster, PA

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • julian wilson
                              Bambi, some of us are well aware of the pitfalls of foreign languages which contain words like US or UK English, but have altered meanings. Chuckle!! When I
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 17, 2010
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                                Bambi, some of us are well aware of the pitfalls of foreign languages which contain words like US or UK English, but have altered meanings. Chuckle!!
                                When I first visited France as a schoolboy, " when the world was young, and the Queen was new, and there were no unclean ideals in the land" [points for anyone recdognising the quotation] -  I stayed with a VIP upper-Middle-Class  family who owned a string of Breweries and Bars throughout Metropolitan France. One of the French words for a [drinking] Bar is "brasserie". I kept on confusing it with "brassiere" to their great amusement, and my considerable embarrassment.
                                Then there are the opportunities to make bi-lingual puns - as in "in Germany, fast food is the würst that can happen to you!" ["würst" being the German word for sausage].
                                 When I learned my German, at school over 60 years ago, one of the first nouns we were taught in preparation for a School Exchange Trip to Solingen, was  "Abort" so that if we were "caught-short", - we could ask for directions to the nearest Toilet. Andhow  to find a Policeman - or the local Police Station - it was "SchüPo" or "SchüPoHaus" ["ShüPo" bering short for "SchützPolizei"]
                                Returning to Germany to work, after an absence of decades, I found my school-era German came flooding back - but noticed that many words - "Abort" and "SchüPo" amongst them - had either gone out of use entirely - or changed their meanings.
                                More embarassment while i updated my vocab. and my idioms!
                                However, a compensation [especially when visiting Museums] was that I'd not forgotten how to both write and read the "alte Deutsche Scrift" [still in wide user during my school-age visits] - to the considerable surprise of many Germans younger than I - who had never learned how to do this.

                                Lord Matthewe Baker,
                                 [still amused ny the memories!]

                                --- On Thu, 17/6/10, Bambi TBNL <hippy_dippy_dancer@...> wrote:

                                From: Bambi TBNL <hippy_dippy_dancer@...>
                                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question
                                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, 17 June, 2010, 2:15







                                 









                                from the dept of boring factoids you never wanted to know

                                if you take a modern german translation of shakespear and

                                an orignal writing of shakes pear...it is pretty sclose word for word...even a lot of the grammer

                                the german  word for grain is Korn

                                 the german word for corn is Maize 

                                In germany , Maize is used as annimal fodder because it doe not grow of a humanly marketable quality there.

                                in the late 1940s at the end of WWII when there were no farms with enough to feed the german citizens while they rebuilt their country, the US ,hearing the plea of the  pupolace of war ravage germany, sent a humanitarian gift of corn/maize to feed them.

                                whether accidentally or deliberately , the letter from the newly formed govt had been tranlated incorrectly. in the 1970's I knew people who had been on the receiving end of that debacle and who still could not understand how the US has so callously sent animal fodder to a country whose children were starving.

                                yeah out of period sort of but the language mishap seeds were definately planted in period.Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL



                                I am made for great things by GOD

                                and walk with Pride!!!!

                                Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad

                                see me dance

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0



                                ________________________________

                                From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>

                                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com

                                Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 5:16:47 PM

                                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Interesting Question



                                 



                                <<



                                Thank you, I knew there was a logical conclusion to this as I didnt have the answer and dont like to call folks out without it!



                                Yours in Humble Service,

                                Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov

                                Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent



                                "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!">>



                                There is also the fact that the English refer to wheat and similar grains as "corn". So you may well run into the word "corn" in a period source, but most likely it refers to a variety of wheat rather than to maize.



                                Brangwana Morgan

                                Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom

                                Lancaster, PA



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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