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Re: [SCA Newcomers] (no subject)

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  • Shellie
    I hate it when people do this to me also. I have very limited funds and can t go getting what I really want and then when I do make something I am berated.
    Message 1 of 10 , May 5 8:37 PM
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      I hate it when people do this to me also. I have very limited funds and can't go getting what I really want and then when I do make something I am berated. Unfortunately with me when this happens I cry quietly to myself then explode on them fiercely. The Barony I am in here isn't that picky from what I am told there are a few that are period from the ankles up. Of course back then they didn't have sewing machines either so technically I would have to look at that person and say well you aren't quite authentic either now are you. I saw some nice looking patterns from McCalls and Simplicity online they are a bit expensive for me but I guess they would be a reasonable price.

      Shellie
      Gwyntarian
      Mogadore, Ohio

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: DeAnna Ziots
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:27 PM
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] (no subject)



      I'm finding that getting the right clothing to be very difficult. Some say getting a medieval pattern from the internet is good. Others say you HAVE to be 100% authentic, your clothing have to reflect your period. How do we really know? All we really have to go by are paintings and written descriptions. I'm having a hard time finding "authentic" patterns in anything other then peasant clothing. I ordered some book to see if I can come up with my own patterns, but will that be considered authentic dress or will I be scuffed at? I've gotten some sights from some of you before (many thanks) but all of the above is what I've run into. I have a dress that I got from the Ren-Fest, and no it's not a wench outfit. It's a gown with an under skirt and a silk under dress and an A-line outer dress. I was told it wouldn't work because it wasn't anything that would have been worn during that time. I seriously need some help. Send me pics of your cloths or of
      patterns...SOMETHING...I don't really want to create my persona around a peasant dress. Thank you all so much!!! I know I've asked a lot of questions on this subject so I thank you all for being patient with me.

      DeAnna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Robert Bohler
      The McCalls and Simplicity patterns are ....... ok, but I d suggest looking at some of the patterns available through Reconstructing History .
      Message 2 of 10 , May 6 3:31 AM
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        The McCalls and Simplicity patterns are ....... ok, but I'd suggest looking at some of the patterns available through "Reconstructing History".

        https://www.reconstructinghistory.com/patterns.php?c=1&w=38&r=Y

        Ulrich of Greyfells

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Shellie
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:37 PM
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] (no subject)



        I hate it when people do this to me also. I have very limited funds and can't go getting what I really want and then when I do make something I am berated. Unfortunately with me when this happens I cry quietly to myself then explode on them fiercely. The Barony I am in here isn't that picky from what I am told there are a few that are period from the ankles up. Of course back then they didn't have sewing machines either so technically I would have to look at that person and say well you aren't quite authentic either now are you. I saw some nice looking patterns from McCalls and Simplicity online they are a bit expensive for me but I guess they would be a reasonable price.

        Shellie
        Gwyntarian
        Mogadore, Ohio

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: DeAnna Ziots
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:27 PM
        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] (no subject)

        I'm finding that getting the right clothing to be very difficult. Some say getting a medieval pattern from the internet is good. Others say you HAVE to be 100% authentic, your clothing have to reflect your period. How do we really know? All we really have to go by are paintings and written descriptions. I'm having a hard time finding "authentic" patterns in anything other then peasant clothing. I ordered some book to see if I can come up with my own patterns, but will that be considered authentic dress or will I be scuffed at? I've gotten some sights from some of you before (many thanks) but all of the above is what I've run into. I have a dress that I got from the Ren-Fest, and no it's not a wench outfit. It's a gown with an under skirt and a silk under dress and an A-line outer dress. I was told it wouldn't work because it wasn't anything that would have been worn during that time. I seriously need some help. Send me pics of your cloths or of
        patterns...SOMETHING...I don't really want to create my persona around a peasant dress. Thank you all so much!!! I know I've asked a lot of questions on this subject so I thank you all for being patient with me.

        DeAnna

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • D'vorah bint al-Attar
        ... I ve also been informed by someone on (mumble -- can t remember which email list) that http://www.historicenterprises.com not only SAYS that their clothing
        Message 3 of 10 , May 6 4:39 AM
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          On 6 May 2010, at 5:31 AM, Robert Bohler wrote:

          > The McCalls and Simplicity patterns are ....... ok, but I'd suggest looking at some of the patterns available through "Reconstructing History".
          >
          > https://www.reconstructinghistory.com/patterns.php?c=1&w=38&r=Y

          I've also been informed by someone on (mumble -- can't remember which email list) that http://www.historicenterprises.com not only SAYS that their clothing patterns and construction methods are period, but are actually correct. If you wanted to buy one full set of garb and then use that as a pattern to make future sets, I'm told that would be an excellent thing to do.

          But, again, no one is going to... no, no one SHOULD be berating you because you aren't 100% authentic. The rule is "an attempt at pre-17th century clothing," not "perfection at all costs." There are historical re-enactment groups that do demand that level of authenticity, but the SCA is more understanding of beginners, hobbyists, and those who want to focus on only a handful of aspects, as well as being geared towards helping everyone raise their authenticity in the ways, and at the paces, that they themselves find compelling.
          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
          D'vorah bint al-Attar
          Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
          Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
          dvorah@...
          http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
          Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
        • Robert Bohler
          What I m currently doing is working with the Reconstructing History , 1560 s doublet and pluderhose pattern, which cost ~$30. ( buy their patterns through
          Message 4 of 10 , May 6 5:03 AM
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            What I'm currently doing is working with the "Reconstructing History", 1560's doublet and pluderhose pattern, which cost ~$30. ( buy their patterns through Amazon.com though, shipping is cheaper).
            For fabric I raided my local sewing supply shop and hit the bargain bins for upholstery fabrics, which often look close enough to period. I found some really nice stuff for ~$5/yrd. Figure in what you need, main fabric, inter-lining, lining, thread, pins, buttons etc, and you can create a complete outfit for ~$120.

            As for the sewing itself, I can barely sew on a button by hand. So I've borrowed my mum's sewing machine, deciphered its mysteries and just using that. If anyone nitpicks that it isn't hand sewn, I don't really care. I've made the effort, and put all the work into the project, that's reward enough for me.

            Ulrich of Greyfells
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: D'vorah bint al-Attar
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 7:39 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] (no subject)




            On 6 May 2010, at 5:31 AM, Robert Bohler wrote:

            > The McCalls and Simplicity patterns are ....... ok, but I'd suggest looking at some of the patterns available through "Reconstructing History".
            >
            > https://www.reconstructinghistory.com/patterns.php?c=1&w=38&r=Y

            I've also been informed by someone on (mumble -- can't remember which email list) that http://www.historicenterprises.com not only SAYS that their clothing patterns and construction methods are period, but are actually correct. If you wanted to buy one full set of garb and then use that as a pattern to make future sets, I'm told that would be an excellent thing to do.

            But, again, no one is going to... no, no one SHOULD be berating you because you aren't 100% authentic. The rule is "an attempt at pre-17th century clothing," not "perfection at all costs." There are historical re-enactment groups that do demand that level of authenticity, but the SCA is more understanding of beginners, hobbyists, and those who want to focus on only a handful of aspects, as well as being geared towards helping everyone raise their authenticity in the ways, and at the paces, that they themselves find compelling.
            -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
            D'vorah bint al-Attar
            Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
            Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
            dvorah@...
            http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
            Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
            -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • S H
            ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 10 , May 6 5:11 AM
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              >
              > Thanks for the insite here D'vorah! I love the fact that everyone in my
              > barony is so.. pationt. Personality I figuar I could try to get something
              > "Gendrc" made for now and then something more accurate once I get my
              > persona together..... (anyone have advice for Jewish womans outfits of
              > Southern France prior to 1390 by the way?) rhe very first thing I went to
              > ended up being a barony event (and roaly cort too!) and no one said anything
              > event hough I was in nothing more then a Long bulky Skirt, the most
              > pesantish thing I could find from our modern wardrob, some kind of head
              > covering I can't remember and something draped around me as a shawl- I knew
              > I was faking it- but I just didn't have anything elce. Oh and nice big
              > basket with cloth on it
              >


              > to hold my stuff... I like baskets.. they cover a multitude of sins...
              >




              Devorah says:

              > I've also been informed by someone on (mumble -- can't remember which email
              > list) that http://www.historicenterprises.com not only SAYS that their
              > clothing patterns and construction methods are period, but are actually
              > correct. If you wanted to buy one full set of garb and then use that as a
              > pattern to make future sets, I'm told that would be an excellent thing to
              > do.
              >
              > But, again, no one is going to... no, no one SHOULD be berating you because
              > you aren't 100% authentic. The rule is "an attempt at pre-17th century
              > clothing," not "perfection at all costs." There are historical re-enactment
              > groups that do demand that level of authenticity, but the SCA is more
              > understanding of beginners, hobbyists, and those who want to focus on only a
              > handful of aspects, as well as being geared towards helping everyone raise
              > their authenticity in the ways, and at the paces, that they themselves find
              > compelling.
              >
              > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
              > D'vorah bint al-Attar
              > Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
              > Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
              > dvorah@... <dvorah%40consensualreality.net>
              > http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
              > Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
              >
              > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • S H
              ... I relly love the SCA- I went to FP a few days ago- and two people brought ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 10 , May 6 5:22 AM
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                >
                > :) well said.. and really- better it should stay together and not fall
                > apart during court right? I can't immagion gthe skill necessary to keep
                > a doublet together when its just you a needle a a zillion yards of upultry
                > fabic....On that note I know down here one of the local sewing Mesahine
                > reapaie places has a speacal deals for SCA members- I don't know if its
                > noraml thing.. but it more then proves sewing meshens are the norm... and
                > more over probbly that *leaning* to sew is the norm...
                >
                I relly love the SCA- I went to FP a few days ago- and two people brought
                > like f boxed filled with fabric they where to get ride of to move and little
                > everyone- from little glirsl to burly guys in fully body armor was like
                > "Free Fabric! Where! Where!" "I don't know what I'd do with that piece"
                > "Take it anyway" ...
                >

                >

                > As for the sewing itself, I can barely sew on a button by hand. So I've
                > borrowed my mum's sewing machine, deciphered its mysteries and just using
                > that. If anyone nitpicks that it isn't hand sewn, I don't really care. I've
                > made the effort, and put all the work into the project, that's reward enough
                > for me.
                >
                >
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              • D'vorah bint al-Attar
                ... Jewish women s outfits in all times and ages had to be, above all, modest. In my area of the world (Yemen, 13th century), that meant (and still means) that
                Message 7 of 10 , May 6 5:32 AM
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                  On 6 May 2010, at 7:11 AM, S H wrote:

                  >> Thanks for the insite here D'vorah! I love the fact that everyone in my
                  >> barony is so.. pationt. Personality I figuar I could try to get something
                  >> "Gendrc" made for now and then something more accurate once I get my
                  >> persona together..... (anyone have advice for Jewish womans outfits of
                  >> Southern France prior to 1390 by the way?) rhe very first thing I went to
                  >> ended up being a barony event (and roaly cort too!) and no one said anything
                  >> event hough I was in nothing more then a Long bulky Skirt, the most
                  >> pesantish thing I could find from our modern wardrob, some kind of head
                  >> covering I can't remember and something draped around me as a shawl- I knew
                  >> I was faking it- but I just didn't have anything elce. Oh and nice big
                  >> basket with cloth on it

                  Jewish women's outfits in all times and ages had to be, above all, modest. In my area of the world (Yemen, 13th century), that meant (and still means) that one could expose face, hands, feet, and nothing else. It also meant (and still means) that clothing should be loose enough to hide the details of one's figure. You can't disguise the fact that you have breasts, for instance, but you can disguise the exact shape. Everyone knows that you have thighs, but you cover them so that no one can see above the knee -- no one should see the separation of thighs, and no one should see the place where they rejoin, so one must wear a skirt, dress, or long tunic over one's trousers.

                  In Europe, the opposite was true, apparently. Modesty in (mid? late?) period Europe seemed to be that the bodice should be tight so that one could see the figure, but could not get to it easily. Hence the fitted bodices and the corsets and all. Breasts could be mostly uncovered, too, because a good deal of in-period thinking was that they were basically there to serve babies their lunches. Caveat: I don't know for how much of our period of interest this was true. It may have only been a late-period or even a post-period thing, which would mean that this isn't a valid statement for your late 14th century persona. Europeans, speak up! :) Jews usually wore what their non-Jewish neighbors wore, barring the (frequent) laws which the non-Jewish communities passed to force the Jews to visually differentiate themselves. Look up whether a southern French Jew was subject to any of those laws, and that'll help.

                  But either way, a Jewish woman was required to be modest, and an *observant* Jewish woman held herself to that standard. At the very minimum, one must cover the legs, the upper arms (including elbows; including even when stretching to reach something high), the collarbones and all below them; and the hair if married. If you're portraying a Jewish woman, your first real task will be to determine how observant she is, and then you'll know how she dresses. Email me privately if you want help figuring that out. I'm Jewish and observant in and out of persona.
                  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                  D'vorah bint al-Attar
                  Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
                  Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                  dvorah@...
                  http://www.consensualreality.net/sca AND
                  Facebook: D'vorah Bint Al-Attar
                  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                  ... I am always so sorry to hear about situations like this! As someone else pointed out, the SCA Inc. only requires an attempt at pre-1600 costume. It is
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 6 6:35 AM
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                    On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 23:37 -0400, Shellie wrote:
                    > I have very limited funds and can't go getting what I really want and
                    > then when I do make something I am berated.


                    I am always so sorry to hear about situations like this! As someone else
                    pointed out, the SCA Inc. only requires "an attempt" at pre-1600
                    costume. It is against the rules for a local group to demand a
                    particular style or culture. As long as you are making a reasonable
                    attempt at the historical costume of some culture that was known to
                    exist by western Europeans within the time period 600-1600 CE, you are
                    complying with SCA rules. If someone tells you that in a particular
                    shire or barony you *must* wear garb from a particular country or a
                    particular narrow time period, they are wrong, and the rules are on your
                    side.

                    We have some really wonderful authenticity mavens on this list, and
                    their approach is very much to encourage first efforts and offer
                    kindness and gentle guidance to improve as you learn at your own pace.
                    Unfortunately, out there in the wide world there are a few individuals
                    who try to boost their own self-esteem by berating the work of others
                    who have less experience. They apparently don't "get" that whole thing
                    about flies, honey, and vinegar. :-/

                    There are almost certainly people in your locale with a better attitude
                    also. We just need to get you started and help you find them.

                    For what it's worth.... My very first SCA event was Pennsic 20, back
                    in the early 1990s. I showed up at the site with some garb made by my ex
                    wife, and it fit so horribly that I literally couldn't wear it. (There
                    is probably a life-lesson in this....but that's another subject.) So I
                    arrived on site with, for all practical purposes, no garb. I had to buy
                    off the rack from merchants. I wanted to do Byzantine persona, but all I
                    knew of them was that Constantinople is near the Middle East. So I ended
                    up wearing a crazy mishmash of north-European tunic, North American
                    pioneer high moccasins, and (to protect my bald head from sun) a Middle
                    Eastern kafiya and agal (the traditional Arabic male headgear). I'm
                    proud to say I made the agal (the ornamented headband) myself -- my very
                    first A&S project. But.... To any reasonable person, I looked like a
                    crazy mix of cultures.

                    Friends talked me into attending a class in the Enchanted Ground, the
                    most authenticity-driven campsite at Pennsic. While I was there, I got
                    to talking with several of their folk, including Duke Cariadoc himself.
                    By all rights, they could have (with good reason) criticized my garb.
                    They didn't. Instead, they chose to say nothing about what I did wrong,
                    but rather dug deep to find one or two tiny things I did correctly (such
                    as beginning to research my persona while at Pennsic), and they praised
                    the small points they could.

                    I went away from that encounter feeling terrific. By this point, I had
                    figured out that I had done a poor job of garbing myself, but these
                    folks had given me hope that there was something I was doing well, also.

                    I am still not exactly a garb maven, but I'm wearing a lot better now
                    than I was then. They could have easily crushed my attempts and probably
                    driven me out of the SCA. Instead, they encouraged me gently. This year
                    I will attend my 20th Pennsic, and I'm still having fun.

                    Please don't give up -- most of the SCA is more likely to offer you help
                    and tutoring rather than criticism. We just need to get you linked up
                    with the right people, and this list is a pretty good starting point for
                    that.

                    Kind regards and welcome,

                    Justin

                    --
                    ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                    Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                    Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                    fesswise reversed sable.

                    justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                  • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                    ... I have a tunic and under-tunic that I bought last year at Pennsic from Black Swan Designs, which is part of Historic Enterprises. I am extremely pleased
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 6 6:50 AM
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                      On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 06:39 -0500, D'vorah bint al-Attar wrote:
                      > I've also been informed by someone on (mumble -- can't remember which
                      > email list) that http://www.historicenterprises.com not only SAYS that
                      > their clothing patterns and construction methods are period, but are
                      > actually correct. If you wanted to buy one full set of garb and then
                      > use that as a pattern to make future sets, I'm told that would be an
                      > excellent thing to do.


                      I have a tunic and under-tunic that I bought last year at Pennsic from
                      Black Swan Designs, which is part of Historic Enterprises. I am
                      extremely pleased with the quality of the garments, and I get
                      compliments from others almost every time I wear the tunic. Both inner
                      and outer are made of 100% linen, and it's wonderfully comfortable in
                      summer weather. :-)

                      So I second D'vorah's recommendation of these folks. I don't have any
                      commercial connection to them -- I'm just a customer who's happy with
                      what I bought.

                      Justin

                      --
                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                      Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                      fesswise reversed sable.

                      justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                    • Maria Buchanan
                      Shellie, Go to JoAnns Fabrics online and sign up for their e-newsletter.  When you get it read it.  It will tell you when the patterns go on sale.  I ve
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 6 11:21 AM
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                        Shellie,
                        Go to JoAnns Fabrics online and sign up for their e-newsletter.  When you get it read it.  It will tell you when the patterns go on sale.  I've gotten McCalls and Simplicity patterns for 99 cents at JoAnn's when they are on sale.  Sometimes they are 1.99.  I've never bought a pattern at JoAnn's at full price. 
                        Maria

                        --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Shellie <mbuter30@...> wrote:

                        From: Shellie <mbuter30@...>
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] (no subject)
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 10:37 PM







                         









                        I hate it when people do this to me also. I have very limited funds and can't go getting what I really want and then when I do make something I am berated. Unfortunately with me when this happens I cry quietly to myself then explode on them fiercely. The Barony I am in here isn't that picky from what I am told there are a few that are period from the ankles up. Of course back then they didn't have sewing machines either so technically I would have to look at that person and say well you aren't quite authentic either now are you. I saw some nice looking patterns from McCalls and Simplicity online they are a bit expensive for me but I guess they would be a reasonable price.



                        Shellie

                        Gwyntarian

                        Mogadore, Ohio



                        ----- Original Message -----

                        From: DeAnna Ziots

                        To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

                        Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:27 PM

                        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] (no subject)



                        I'm finding that getting the right clothing to be very difficult. Some say getting a medieval pattern from the internet is good. Others say you HAVE to be 100% authentic, your clothing have to reflect your period. How do we really know? All we really have to go by are paintings and written descriptions. I'm having a hard time finding "authentic" patterns in anything other then peasant clothing. I ordered some book to see if I can come up with my own patterns, but will that be considered authentic dress or will I be scuffed at? I've gotten some sights from some of you before (many thanks) but all of the above is what I've run into. I have a dress that I got from the Ren-Fest, and no it's not a wench outfit. It's a gown with an under skirt and a silk under dress and an A-line outer dress. I was told it wouldn't work because it wasn't anything that would have been worn during that time. I seriously need some help. Send me pics of your cloths or of

                        patterns...SOMETHIN G...I don't really want to create my persona around a peasant dress. Thank you all so much!!! I know I've asked a lot of questions on this subject so I thank you all for being patient with me.



                        DeAnna



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