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"Holland linen" (was: cotton)

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  • Coblaith Muimnech
    ... It s not necessarily linen from the Low Countries. It might be linen sent to the Low Countries for finishing and then returned to England, or linen
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 8, 2009
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      Matthewe Bake wrote:
      > I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the
      > English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's
      > reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
      > The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other
      > garments.. . .the most of the linen noted in these period
      > manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or
      > flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make
      > it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.

      It's not necessarily linen from the Low Countries. It might be linen
      sent to the Low Countries for finishing and then returned to England,
      or linen finished in the British Isles using processes associated
      with the Low Countries <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?
      compid=58793> <http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8soAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA241>.


      Coblaith Muimnech
      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
      Kingdom of Ansteorra
      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      <http://coblaith.net>
    • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
      Ziddina (me) wrote:  not an actual white as we know it today... Coblaith replied:  Not optic white , which indicates a white fabric that has
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 11, 2009
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        Ziddina (me) wrote:  "not an actual 'white' as we know it today..."

        Coblaith replied:  "Not "optic white", which indicates a white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the Clorox corporation promises its customers)..."



        Uoops.  That "dayglow" white is what I think of as 'modern' white...  Didn't realize that a good 'white' could be achieved in 'period'; always assumed that 'period' white was more of a 'cream' or 'winter' white - off-white, in other words...



        Colblaith wrote:  "It is almost without exception the color of all types of underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions."



        RATS!  I like colors, and really wanted to get into 'colored' chemises/shifts...  I see the logic of your points, though, as you stated:  "1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it, boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes that might run, shift, or fade."



        and "2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is *hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up. Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a much, much bigger bang for your buck."



        Ziddina (me) said:  "Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle Eastern garb???"



        Oh, I wish, I wish, I wish...


        Coblaith replied:  "All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
        worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too vague to elicit one."



        Which means I ought to start cracking those books again...
        Ziddina

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith@...>
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:19:14 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

         




        Ziddina wrote:
        > I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an
        > undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans
        > used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
        > conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as
        > we know it today...

        No; "white" means 'white'. Not "optic white", which indicates a
        white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it
        essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the
        Clorox corporation promises its customers), but plain old everyday
        white. It is almost without exception the color of all types of
        underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core
        period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It
        is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance
        shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions.

        Linen can be whitened in a number of ways without chemicals that
        weren't available before 1600. The most widely used is the simple
        exposure of damp linen to direct sunlight. In period there were
        designated communal bleaching greens in many villages, and large
        estates often had their own. They were used not only to whiten new
        fabric but to restore the whiteness of linen goods that had yellowed
        or to keep white linen white. (David Teniers the Younger's
        "Bleaching Ground" < http://www.abcgallery.com/T/teniers/
        teniers6.html>, painted about 45 years after the end of the S.C.A's
        period, shows a village bleaching green in action.) There were also
        professionals who used large bleaching greens, often in conjunction
        with various treatments that enhanced the effects of field-bleaching,
        to whiten quantities of new linen that were then passed on to
        clothiers and fabric-mongers. (There's an account of some techniques
        used in 16th-century Germany on page 131 of _The Workplace before the
        Factory_, as part of Thomas Max Safley's "Production, Transaction,
        and Proletarianization: The Textile Industry in Upper Swabia,
        1580-1660" < http://books.google.com/books?id=m-
        YDD2_ykGsC&pg=PA131>.) If I had to guess, I'd say those who could
        afford to bought professionally whitened fabric and used their local
        bleaching greens to maintain it, rather than starting with "brown
        linen" and bleaching their own. The latter process isn't
        particularly difficult, but it is slow and requires a fair amount of
        attention.

        > I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.
        > White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits,
        > an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet. I am SO
        > tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...

        I'm not clear on what basis you declare, "White was a 'status'
        color. . .," or to which culture and period you're referring when you
        do.

        In addition to the representational and archaeological evidence that
        underclothes were pretty much universally white across Europe between
        600 and 1600, there are a couple of obvious logical reasons they
        would've been.

        1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it,
        boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes
        that might run, shift, or fade. And you can just re-bleach it if you
        find you've got uneven shades resulting from intensive stain-removal
        treatments. So for garments you're going to sweat on and maybe spot
        with other bodily excretions, white's a smart choice.

        2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay
        fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is
        *hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble
        and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up.
        Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a
        much, much bigger bang for your buck.

        > Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into
        > earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle
        > Eastern garb???

        All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in
        some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of
        interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
        worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able
        to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too
        vague to elicit one.

        Coblaith Muimnech
        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        Kingdom of Ansteorra
        <mailto: Coblaith@... >
        < http://coblaith.net >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
        Thank you!  Good information! ... From: julian wilson To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 2:56:03 AM GMT
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 11, 2009
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          Thank you!  Good information!
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@...>
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 2:56:03 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re:  cotton (was: Colors...)

           




          --- On Sun, 8/11/09, Coblaith Muimnech < Coblaith@... > wrote: Ziddina wrote:
          > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
          > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

          There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
          cotton from The Costume Dabbler < http://des.kyhm com/cotton>. It
          includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
          information.

          COMMENT
          entles All,
          I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
          The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other garments. but AFAIR. "cotton" was only supplied once or twice, against probably an hundred entries for buying/ supplying linen. And the most of the linen noted in these period manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.
          I recall noting that the price of cotton cloth  from the Wardrobe costs about the same as the "holand" linen per ell ; but whether that denotes differing quality or differing width per piece, I didn't discover - because I was targeting the supply of other textiles within the Lists - skarlets, chamlet, sarcenet, &c. What does seem to be clear is that the cotton was imported from further-away from England than the Flanders linen; which would naturally have increased the price, whatever the width/length  per piece.

          Servus,
           Matthewe Baker.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
          Thank you, I ll check out that link.  And as always, I d better bug my local libraries to import more books not available in my area...  Ziddina ... From:
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 11, 2009
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            Thank you, I'll check out that link.  And as always, I'd better bug my local libraries to import more books not available in my area...  Ziddina
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith@...>
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:24:18 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] cotton (was: Colors...)

             




            Ziddina wrote:
            > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
            > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

            There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
            cotton from The Costume Dabbler < http://des.kyhm.com/cotton >. It
            includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
            information.

            Coblaith Muimnech
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto: Coblaith@... >
            < http://coblaith.net >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Callahan Patrick
            I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 11, 2009
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              I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In
              Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally
              Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police
              Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest
              That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That
              Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience
              Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred
              Percent Correct If That Important To You

               

              LOST  AND CONFUSED



              Padhraig O' Cellachain















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • julian wilson
              Colours of under clothing in late-1485 - and early 1486, -  Gentles all,  you may be interested to know that, in the English Wardrobe  & Exchequer
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 12, 2009
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                Colours of "under" clothing in late-1485 - and early 1486, -
                 Gentles all,
                 you may be interested to know that, in the English Wardrobe  & Exchequer Accounts listing cloth purchased - and clothing made-up - for the first 3 "big events" of King Henry VII's Reign, i.e. - the triumphant March from Leicester to London & First Parliament, The Coronation [9 weeks after Bosworth], and the later Coronation of Queen Elizabeth, -  that coloured silks are noted to have been purchased and tailored-up for shirts and coifs - not only for the King's Grace, but also for some of the Lords of His Train,  and one or two of the closest and highest Esquires & Servants of His Affinity.


                In Service to the medieval Dream,
                 Lord Matthewe Baker, ODB,
                 Drachenwald.

                --- On Thu, 12/11/09, Callahan Patrick <callahanpatrick@...> wrote:

                From: Callahan Patrick <callahanpatrick@...>
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, 12 November, 2009, 3:20







                 













                I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In

                Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally

                Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police

                Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest

                That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That

                Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience

                Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred

                Percent Correct If That Important To You



                 



                LOST  AND CONFUSED



                Padhraig O' Cellachain



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                Hee hee hee!  I like the way you think...  Ziddina ... From: Callahan Patrick To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 12, 2009
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                  Hee hee hee!  I like the way you think...  Ziddina
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Callahan Patrick" <callahanpatrick@...>
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:20:48 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

                   






                  I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In
                  Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally
                  Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police
                  Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest
                  That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That
                  Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience
                  Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred
                  Percent Correct If That Important To You

                   

                  LOST  AND CONFUSED

                  Padhraig O' Cellachain

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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