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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

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  • Judith Epstein
    ... Are you using actual *silver* metal threads to embroider on another base color, or are you using some kind of silver-colored metallic shiny cloth that
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 6, 2009
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      On 5 Nov 2009, at 8:47 PM, Cailin Mac Kinnach wrote:

      > This may be a silly question, but I thought i'd ask. Was silver a
      > viable color for an under dress, in period? Or were the almost all
      > white, or some dyeable color?

      Are you using actual *silver* metal threads to embroider on another
      base color, or are you using some kind of silver-colored metallic
      shiny cloth that hasn't been invented yet? I suspect there lies your
      answer.

      Judith / no SCA name yet
      Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
      Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
    • Stefan li Rous
      Caitlin asked:
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 6, 2009
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        Caitlin asked:

        <<< This may be a silly question, but I thought i'd ask. Was silver a
        viable color for an under dress, in period? Or were the almost all
        white, or some dyeable color? >>>

        There are few silly questions and often any question often brings up
        whole conversations.

        You've already had several very good answers on silver cloth. We in
        the USA tend to use metallic materials, including metallic looking
        trim, much, much too freely. The only ways to get these in period was
        by using real silver and gold, making them very expensive and thus
        rarely used.

        I think by "under dress" you are talking about the brown dress in the
        photo, right? Under that would likely have been another dress of
        natural linen. Not dyed. There are multiple reasons for this.

        1) Linen is very resistant to natural dyes and stains. So it would not
        have been dyed. The fact that it doesn't stain easily, also makes it a
        good fabric to use against your skin. Often in period the outside
        clothing was not washed. Wearing linen as an under layer thus helps
        protect the outer clothing.

        2) Unlike today, linen and wool were the cheap fabrics in period.
        Being worn as the inner most layer subjects the linen to more wear and
        tear as does being washed. But being a cheaper fabric, it was cheaper
        to replace than the outer layers.

        3) Linen fabric breathes well and will wick away moisture, making it
        more comfortable against your skin. Also the more linen is washed, the
        softer and more comfortable it gets.

        4) Dyes were expensive, and the more brightly colored dyes were more
        expensive and difficult than the forest colors. Why dye something that
        won't be seen? Keep this in mind when you choose colors. If you are
        doing a lower or middle class persona stay away from bright colors.
        Conversely, if you are portraying a high ranking individual in fancy
        clothing, keep in mind that they would have avoided the duller,
        natural colors. One reason the monks are often pictured in browns, is
        not that they dyed their clothes that color, but that was the color of
        undyed wool. Again, wool was a cheap fabric.

        Today, linen can be dyed with chemical dyes. As someone mentioned
        linen can often be a good choice for those in hot or humid climates
        for both inner and outer layers. I used to make my undertunics out of
        cotton, but for these reasons, even though it now costs more than
        cotton, I now make my undertunics out of linen.

        For more on all of this, see the various dyeing and textiles files in
        the TEXTILE ARTS section of the Florilegium.

        Stefan
        --------
        THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
        Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
        **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
      • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
        Hmm.  What an interesting question.  I assume that the white of linen would have actually been an undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 7, 2009
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          Hmm.  What an interesting question.  I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as we know it today...



          I've purchased tea-dyed cottons for my chemises; of course, my persona is North African and would have had access to Egyptian cotton.  I do know of several SCA'ers in this area who argue (effectively, in my opinion...) that Europeans possibly had access to Egyptian cotton, too, as many of the trade routes into Europe passed near or through Egypt - that's by-land caravan routes, as opposed to by-sea.



          I still have to do a LOT of research on the Egyptian trade routes - both by land and by sea - as that pertains to my North African persona.  Does anyone out there have info on said trade routes, cotton, and the possibility that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???



          Just to muddle the issue, though...  I have a photo in my "SCA Garb" file, however, that shows an Egyptian chemise or garment from WAAAAY pre-period Egypt [approx 1000 BC, if I remember without looking it up right now] - made from linen.  If I recall correctly - and again, if anyone could provide information, please?? - cotton wasn't actually developed, even in Egypt, until later periods...???



          Having said that, I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.  White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits, an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet.  I am SO tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...



          Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle Eastern garb???



          Thanks for raising this interesting question, Cailin!  Ziddina
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Cailin Mac Kinnach" <cailin.sca@...>
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, sylvanglen@yahoogroups.com, TirYsgithr@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2009 7:47:48 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

           




          This may be a silly question, but I thought i'd ask. Was silver a
          viable color for an under dress, in period? Or were the almost all
          white, or some dyeable color?

          For refference, I'm working on the pattern that is represented by the
          picture of Wanda P. on this page:
          http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/pp21-ex.htm

          Thanks for your time,

          Cailin/Ken



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Coblaith Muimnech
          ... No; white means white . Not optic white , which indicates a white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it essentially glow when
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 8, 2009
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            Ziddina wrote:
            > I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an
            > undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans
            > used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
            > conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as
            > we know it today...

            No; "white" means 'white'. Not "optic white", which indicates a
            white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it
            essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the
            Clorox corporation promises its customers), but plain old everyday
            white. It is almost without exception the color of all types of
            underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core
            period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It
            is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance
            shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions.

            Linen can be whitened in a number of ways without chemicals that
            weren't available before 1600. The most widely used is the simple
            exposure of damp linen to direct sunlight. In period there were
            designated communal bleaching greens in many villages, and large
            estates often had their own. They were used not only to whiten new
            fabric but to restore the whiteness of linen goods that had yellowed
            or to keep white linen white. (David Teniers the Younger's
            "Bleaching Ground" <http://www.abcgallery.com/T/teniers/
            teniers6.html>, painted about 45 years after the end of the S.C.A's
            period, shows a village bleaching green in action.) There were also
            professionals who used large bleaching greens, often in conjunction
            with various treatments that enhanced the effects of field-bleaching,
            to whiten quantities of new linen that were then passed on to
            clothiers and fabric-mongers. (There's an account of some techniques
            used in 16th-century Germany on page 131 of _The Workplace before the
            Factory_, as part of Thomas Max Safley's "Production, Transaction,
            and Proletarianization: The Textile Industry in Upper Swabia,
            1580-1660" <http://books.google.com/books?id=m-
            YDD2_ykGsC&pg=PA131>.) If I had to guess, I'd say those who could
            afford to bought professionally whitened fabric and used their local
            bleaching greens to maintain it, rather than starting with "brown
            linen" and bleaching their own. The latter process isn't
            particularly difficult, but it is slow and requires a fair amount of
            attention.

            > I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.
            > White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits,
            > an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet. I am SO
            > tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...

            I'm not clear on what basis you declare, "White was a 'status'
            color. . .," or to which culture and period you're referring when you
            do.

            In addition to the representational and archaeological evidence that
            underclothes were pretty much universally white across Europe between
            600 and 1600, there are a couple of obvious logical reasons they
            would've been.

            1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it,
            boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes
            that might run, shift, or fade. And you can just re-bleach it if you
            find you've got uneven shades resulting from intensive stain-removal
            treatments. So for garments you're going to sweat on and maybe spot
            with other bodily excretions, white's a smart choice.

            2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay
            fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is
            *hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble
            and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up.
            Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a
            much, much bigger bang for your buck.

            > Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into
            > earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle
            > Eastern garb???

            All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in
            some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of
            interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
            worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able
            to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too
            vague to elicit one.


            Coblaith Muimnech
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
            <http://coblaith.net>
          • Coblaith Muimnech
            ... There s a good article on the European adoption of what we now call cotton from The Costume Dabbler . It includes a
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 8, 2009
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              Ziddina wrote:
              > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
              > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

              There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
              cotton from The Costume Dabbler <http://des.kyhm.com/cotton>. It
              includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
              information.


              Coblaith Muimnech
              Barony of Bryn Gwlad
              Kingdom of Ansteorra
              <mailto:Coblaith@...>
              <http://coblaith.net>
            • julian wilson
              ... There s a good article on the European adoption of what we now call cotton from The Costume Dabbler . It includes a
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 8, 2009
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                --- On Sun, 8/11/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote: Ziddina wrote:
                > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
                > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

                There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
                cotton from The Costume Dabbler <http://des.kyhm com/cotton>. It
                includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
                information.


                COMMENT
                entles All,
                I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
                The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other garments. but AFAIR. "cotton" was only supplied once or twice, against probably an hundred entries for buying/ supplying linen. And the most of the linen noted in these period manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.
                I recall noting that the price of cotton cloth  from the Wardrobe costs about the same as the "holand" linen per ell ; but whether that denotes differing quality or differing width per piece, I didn't discover - because I was targeting the supply of other textiles within the Lists - skarlets, chamlet, sarcenet, &c. What does seem to be clear is that the cotton was imported from further-away from England than the Flanders linen; which would naturally have increased the price, whatever the width/length  per piece.

                Servus,
                 Matthewe Baker.
              • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 8, 2009
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                  <<-----Original Message-----
                  From: Ziddinaaitzumar@...
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 7:41 pm
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...








                  Hmm. What an interesting question. I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as we know it today...

                  Having said that, I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white. White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits, an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet. I am SO tempted to use other colors for chemises, however... >>

                  I have been told, although I have not tried it, that linen can bleached simply by washing it and laying it on the grass in the sun to dry. If that is in fact the case, virtually anyone could have access to white linen. The fact of one's linen being white as a status symbol also refers to the fact that the owner had either enough chemises to always have a clean one available, or had the opportunity/servants to launder said chemises.

                  Brangwayna Morgan
                  Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                  Lancaster, PA






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Coblaith Muimnech
                  ... It s not necessarily linen from the Low Countries. It might be linen sent to the Low Countries for finishing and then returned to England, or linen
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 8, 2009
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                    Matthewe Bake wrote:
                    > I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the
                    > English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's
                    > reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
                    > The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other
                    > garments.. . .the most of the linen noted in these period
                    > manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or
                    > flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make
                    > it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.

                    It's not necessarily linen from the Low Countries. It might be linen
                    sent to the Low Countries for finishing and then returned to England,
                    or linen finished in the British Isles using processes associated
                    with the Low Countries <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?
                    compid=58793> <http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8soAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA241>.


                    Coblaith Muimnech
                    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                    Kingdom of Ansteorra
                    <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                    <http://coblaith.net>
                  • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                    Ziddina (me) wrote:  not an actual white as we know it today... Coblaith replied:  Not optic white , which indicates a white fabric that has
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 11, 2009
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                      Ziddina (me) wrote:  "not an actual 'white' as we know it today..."

                      Coblaith replied:  "Not "optic white", which indicates a white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the Clorox corporation promises its customers)..."



                      Uoops.  That "dayglow" white is what I think of as 'modern' white...  Didn't realize that a good 'white' could be achieved in 'period'; always assumed that 'period' white was more of a 'cream' or 'winter' white - off-white, in other words...



                      Colblaith wrote:  "It is almost without exception the color of all types of underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions."



                      RATS!  I like colors, and really wanted to get into 'colored' chemises/shifts...  I see the logic of your points, though, as you stated:  "1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it, boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes that might run, shift, or fade."



                      and "2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is *hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up. Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a much, much bigger bang for your buck."



                      Ziddina (me) said:  "Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle Eastern garb???"



                      Oh, I wish, I wish, I wish...


                      Coblaith replied:  "All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
                      worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too vague to elicit one."



                      Which means I ought to start cracking those books again...
                      Ziddina

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith@...>
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:19:14 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

                       




                      Ziddina wrote:
                      > I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an
                      > undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans
                      > used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
                      > conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as
                      > we know it today...

                      No; "white" means 'white'. Not "optic white", which indicates a
                      white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it
                      essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the
                      Clorox corporation promises its customers), but plain old everyday
                      white. It is almost without exception the color of all types of
                      underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core
                      period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It
                      is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance
                      shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions.

                      Linen can be whitened in a number of ways without chemicals that
                      weren't available before 1600. The most widely used is the simple
                      exposure of damp linen to direct sunlight. In period there were
                      designated communal bleaching greens in many villages, and large
                      estates often had their own. They were used not only to whiten new
                      fabric but to restore the whiteness of linen goods that had yellowed
                      or to keep white linen white. (David Teniers the Younger's
                      "Bleaching Ground" < http://www.abcgallery.com/T/teniers/
                      teniers6.html>, painted about 45 years after the end of the S.C.A's
                      period, shows a village bleaching green in action.) There were also
                      professionals who used large bleaching greens, often in conjunction
                      with various treatments that enhanced the effects of field-bleaching,
                      to whiten quantities of new linen that were then passed on to
                      clothiers and fabric-mongers. (There's an account of some techniques
                      used in 16th-century Germany on page 131 of _The Workplace before the
                      Factory_, as part of Thomas Max Safley's "Production, Transaction,
                      and Proletarianization: The Textile Industry in Upper Swabia,
                      1580-1660" < http://books.google.com/books?id=m-
                      YDD2_ykGsC&pg=PA131>.) If I had to guess, I'd say those who could
                      afford to bought professionally whitened fabric and used their local
                      bleaching greens to maintain it, rather than starting with "brown
                      linen" and bleaching their own. The latter process isn't
                      particularly difficult, but it is slow and requires a fair amount of
                      attention.

                      > I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.
                      > White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits,
                      > an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet. I am SO
                      > tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...

                      I'm not clear on what basis you declare, "White was a 'status'
                      color. . .," or to which culture and period you're referring when you
                      do.

                      In addition to the representational and archaeological evidence that
                      underclothes were pretty much universally white across Europe between
                      600 and 1600, there are a couple of obvious logical reasons they
                      would've been.

                      1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it,
                      boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes
                      that might run, shift, or fade. And you can just re-bleach it if you
                      find you've got uneven shades resulting from intensive stain-removal
                      treatments. So for garments you're going to sweat on and maybe spot
                      with other bodily excretions, white's a smart choice.

                      2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay
                      fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is
                      *hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble
                      and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up.
                      Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a
                      much, much bigger bang for your buck.

                      > Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into
                      > earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle
                      > Eastern garb???

                      All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in
                      some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of
                      interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
                      worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able
                      to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too
                      vague to elicit one.

                      Coblaith Muimnech
                      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                      Kingdom of Ansteorra
                      <mailto: Coblaith@... >
                      < http://coblaith.net >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                      Thank you!  Good information! ... From: julian wilson To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 2:56:03 AM GMT
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 11, 2009
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                        Thank you!  Good information!
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@...>
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 2:56:03 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re:  cotton (was: Colors...)

                         




                        --- On Sun, 8/11/09, Coblaith Muimnech < Coblaith@... > wrote: Ziddina wrote:
                        > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
                        > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

                        There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
                        cotton from The Costume Dabbler < http://des.kyhm com/cotton>. It
                        includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
                        information.

                        COMMENT
                        entles All,
                        I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
                        The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other garments. but AFAIR. "cotton" was only supplied once or twice, against probably an hundred entries for buying/ supplying linen. And the most of the linen noted in these period manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.
                        I recall noting that the price of cotton cloth  from the Wardrobe costs about the same as the "holand" linen per ell ; but whether that denotes differing quality or differing width per piece, I didn't discover - because I was targeting the supply of other textiles within the Lists - skarlets, chamlet, sarcenet, &c. What does seem to be clear is that the cotton was imported from further-away from England than the Flanders linen; which would naturally have increased the price, whatever the width/length  per piece.

                        Servus,
                         Matthewe Baker.




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                        Thank you, I ll check out that link.  And as always, I d better bug my local libraries to import more books not available in my area...  Ziddina ... From:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 11, 2009
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                          Thank you, I'll check out that link.  And as always, I'd better bug my local libraries to import more books not available in my area...  Ziddina
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith@...>
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:24:18 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] cotton (was: Colors...)

                           




                          Ziddina wrote:
                          > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
                          > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

                          There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
                          cotton from The Costume Dabbler < http://des.kyhm.com/cotton >. It
                          includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
                          information.

                          Coblaith Muimnech
                          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                          Kingdom of Ansteorra
                          <mailto: Coblaith@... >
                          < http://coblaith.net >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Callahan Patrick
                          I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 11, 2009
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                            I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In
                            Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally
                            Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police
                            Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest
                            That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That
                            Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience
                            Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred
                            Percent Correct If That Important To You

                             

                            LOST  AND CONFUSED



                            Padhraig O' Cellachain















                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • julian wilson
                            Colours of under clothing in late-1485 - and early 1486, -  Gentles all,  you may be interested to know that, in the English Wardrobe  & Exchequer
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 12, 2009
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                              Colours of "under" clothing in late-1485 - and early 1486, -
                               Gentles all,
                               you may be interested to know that, in the English Wardrobe  & Exchequer Accounts listing cloth purchased - and clothing made-up - for the first 3 "big events" of King Henry VII's Reign, i.e. - the triumphant March from Leicester to London & First Parliament, The Coronation [9 weeks after Bosworth], and the later Coronation of Queen Elizabeth, -  that coloured silks are noted to have been purchased and tailored-up for shirts and coifs - not only for the King's Grace, but also for some of the Lords of His Train,  and one or two of the closest and highest Esquires & Servants of His Affinity.


                              In Service to the medieval Dream,
                               Lord Matthewe Baker, ODB,
                               Drachenwald.

                              --- On Thu, 12/11/09, Callahan Patrick <callahanpatrick@...> wrote:

                              From: Callahan Patrick <callahanpatrick@...>
                              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...
                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, 12 November, 2009, 3:20







                               













                              I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In

                              Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally

                              Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police

                              Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest

                              That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That

                              Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience

                              Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred

                              Percent Correct If That Important To You



                               



                              LOST  AND CONFUSED



                              Padhraig O' Cellachain



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                              Hee hee hee!  I like the way you think...  Ziddina ... From: Callahan Patrick To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 12, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hee hee hee!  I like the way you think...  Ziddina
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Callahan Patrick" <callahanpatrick@...>
                                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:20:48 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

                                 






                                I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In
                                Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally
                                Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police
                                Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest
                                That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That
                                Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience
                                Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred
                                Percent Correct If That Important To You

                                 

                                LOST  AND CONFUSED

                                Padhraig O' Cellachain

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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