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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

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  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com; sylvanglen@yahoogroups.com;
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 5 7:23 PM
      <<-----Original Message-----
      From: Cailin Mac Kinnach <cailin.sca@...>
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com; sylvanglen@yahoogroups.com; TirYsgithr@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2009 9:47 pm
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...






      This may be a silly question, but I thought i'd ask. Was silver a
      viable color for an under dress, in period? Or were the almost all
      white, or some dyeable color?

      For refference, I'm working on the pattern that is represented by the
      picture of Wanda P. on this page:
      http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/pp21-ex.htm

      Thanks for your time,

      Cailin/Ken>>







      If you are thinking of metallic silver, like a silver lame, such a thing would have been vanishingly rare in period. I know cloth of gold was made, but it involved actual gold and silk, so enough to make a gown would be extraordinarily expensive. Silver probably wouldn't be much cheaper, so if it was even possible, probably no one but royalty could have afforded it. I don't recall ever seeing illuminations orother spources for this time period depicting an entire metallic gown - metallic embroidery on a gown, yes, but not the ground fabric. In the particular picture you mentioned, any silver embroidery or other decoration would most likely have been on the sideless surcoat rather than the gown under it, as the surcoat was the "luxury" layer.

      I assume that you are referencing the brown undergown in the photo you mentioned. This actually would be considered a fashion layer rather than an underdress (there would be another underdress, like a modern slip, underneath this brown layer). The dress underneath the brown would almost certainly have been white linen. The brown dress could be any color achieved with dyes. In period it would likely have been made out of wool, possibly silk. Lots of people in the SCA use linen for this layer as well because the climate where they live is warmer than that of Europe in the Middle Ages (or even today - highs of 70-80 degrees in England are newsworthy even today).

      Brangwayna Morgan
      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
      Lancaster, PA


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Coblaith Muimnech
      ... Cloth of silver was worn in England in the 14th century, but (1) it was very expensive and (2) Edward III issued sumptuary laws forbidding its use among
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 6 12:23 AM
        Cailin/Ken wrote:
        > . . .Was silver a viable color for an under dress, in period? Or
        > were the almost all white, or some dyeable color?
        >
        > For refference, I'm working on the pattern that is represented by
        > the picture of Wanda P. on this page: http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/
        > pp21-ex.htm

        Cloth of silver was worn in England in the 14th century, but (1) it
        was very expensive and (2) Edward III issued sumptuary laws
        forbidding its use among all but the highest-ranking individuals in
        the kingdom <http://www.archive.org/details/sumptuarylegisla00bald>.
        So it's not the sort of thing you'd expect to see a woman of modest
        standing wearing to, say, a fair, or even to appear in before the
        king. Modern fabrics that resemble period cloth of silver are also
        rather pricey, which means that unless you have a lot of disposable
        income you're not likely to be able to make a silver dress that isn't
        screamingly modern in appearance.

        Shifts (the layer that goes next to the skin) were in period pretty
        much always white. The gowns worn over the shift and under the
        sideless surcote in the 14th and early 15th centuries seem to have
        been, generally, made of dyed wool or of colored silk. Tasha Kelly
        McGann's "How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love Layers" <http://
        www.cottesimple.com/love_layers/love_layers.html> is largely an in-
        depth discussion of these garments, with period images of it from a
        variety of sources .

        If you're looking to make authentic clothing from the sideless
        surcote period, by the way, I recommend Alianor de Ravenglas’ "Making
        a Sideless Surcote", combined with her "Tunics Step by Step" <http://
        alianorderavenglas.wordpress.com/teaching-materials/> or Tasha Kelly
        McGann's directions for making "versatile gowns" <http://
        www.cottesimple.com/index.html>, depending on which part of that
        range you want. Period Patterns' patterns are widely described as
        being difficult to follow and littered with errors. If you've
        already bought Period Patterns #21 and plan to use it, you might want
        to read the thread about it in the MedCos forum on 14th-century
        clothing, where some of the issues with it are discussed, and perhaps
        consider joining the forum so you can ask for help if you run into
        trouble <http://slumberland.org/moodle/course/view.php?id=5>. It
        would also be a good place for general questions about clothing from
        those centuries (like, say, "What colors were popular?" or, "What did
        they wear on their feet?").


        Coblaith Muimnech
        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        Kingdom of Ansteorra
        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
        <http://coblaith.net>
      • Judith Epstein
        ... Are you using actual *silver* metal threads to embroider on another base color, or are you using some kind of silver-colored metallic shiny cloth that
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 6 5:20 AM
          On 5 Nov 2009, at 8:47 PM, Cailin Mac Kinnach wrote:

          > This may be a silly question, but I thought i'd ask. Was silver a
          > viable color for an under dress, in period? Or were the almost all
          > white, or some dyeable color?

          Are you using actual *silver* metal threads to embroider on another
          base color, or are you using some kind of silver-colored metallic
          shiny cloth that hasn't been invented yet? I suspect there lies your
          answer.

          Judith / no SCA name yet
          Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
          Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
        • Stefan li Rous
          Caitlin asked:
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 6 1:50 PM
            Caitlin asked:

            <<< This may be a silly question, but I thought i'd ask. Was silver a
            viable color for an under dress, in period? Or were the almost all
            white, or some dyeable color? >>>

            There are few silly questions and often any question often brings up
            whole conversations.

            You've already had several very good answers on silver cloth. We in
            the USA tend to use metallic materials, including metallic looking
            trim, much, much too freely. The only ways to get these in period was
            by using real silver and gold, making them very expensive and thus
            rarely used.

            I think by "under dress" you are talking about the brown dress in the
            photo, right? Under that would likely have been another dress of
            natural linen. Not dyed. There are multiple reasons for this.

            1) Linen is very resistant to natural dyes and stains. So it would not
            have been dyed. The fact that it doesn't stain easily, also makes it a
            good fabric to use against your skin. Often in period the outside
            clothing was not washed. Wearing linen as an under layer thus helps
            protect the outer clothing.

            2) Unlike today, linen and wool were the cheap fabrics in period.
            Being worn as the inner most layer subjects the linen to more wear and
            tear as does being washed. But being a cheaper fabric, it was cheaper
            to replace than the outer layers.

            3) Linen fabric breathes well and will wick away moisture, making it
            more comfortable against your skin. Also the more linen is washed, the
            softer and more comfortable it gets.

            4) Dyes were expensive, and the more brightly colored dyes were more
            expensive and difficult than the forest colors. Why dye something that
            won't be seen? Keep this in mind when you choose colors. If you are
            doing a lower or middle class persona stay away from bright colors.
            Conversely, if you are portraying a high ranking individual in fancy
            clothing, keep in mind that they would have avoided the duller,
            natural colors. One reason the monks are often pictured in browns, is
            not that they dyed their clothes that color, but that was the color of
            undyed wool. Again, wool was a cheap fabric.

            Today, linen can be dyed with chemical dyes. As someone mentioned
            linen can often be a good choice for those in hot or humid climates
            for both inner and outer layers. I used to make my undertunics out of
            cotton, but for these reasons, even though it now costs more than
            cotton, I now make my undertunics out of linen.

            For more on all of this, see the various dyeing and textiles files in
            the TEXTILE ARTS section of the Florilegium.

            Stefan
            --------
            THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
            Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
            **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
          • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
            Hmm.  What an interesting question.  I assume that the white of linen would have actually been an undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 7 4:41 PM
              Hmm.  What an interesting question.  I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as we know it today...



              I've purchased tea-dyed cottons for my chemises; of course, my persona is North African and would have had access to Egyptian cotton.  I do know of several SCA'ers in this area who argue (effectively, in my opinion...) that Europeans possibly had access to Egyptian cotton, too, as many of the trade routes into Europe passed near or through Egypt - that's by-land caravan routes, as opposed to by-sea.



              I still have to do a LOT of research on the Egyptian trade routes - both by land and by sea - as that pertains to my North African persona.  Does anyone out there have info on said trade routes, cotton, and the possibility that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???



              Just to muddle the issue, though...  I have a photo in my "SCA Garb" file, however, that shows an Egyptian chemise or garment from WAAAAY pre-period Egypt [approx 1000 BC, if I remember without looking it up right now] - made from linen.  If I recall correctly - and again, if anyone could provide information, please?? - cotton wasn't actually developed, even in Egypt, until later periods...???



              Having said that, I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.  White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits, an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet.  I am SO tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...



              Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle Eastern garb???



              Thanks for raising this interesting question, Cailin!  Ziddina
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Cailin Mac Kinnach" <cailin.sca@...>
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, sylvanglen@yahoogroups.com, TirYsgithr@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2009 7:47:48 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

               




              This may be a silly question, but I thought i'd ask. Was silver a
              viable color for an under dress, in period? Or were the almost all
              white, or some dyeable color?

              For refference, I'm working on the pattern that is represented by the
              picture of Wanda P. on this page:
              http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/pp21-ex.htm

              Thanks for your time,

              Cailin/Ken



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Coblaith Muimnech
              ... No; white means white . Not optic white , which indicates a white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it essentially glow when
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 8 12:19 AM
                Ziddina wrote:
                > I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an
                > undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans
                > used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
                > conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as
                > we know it today...

                No; "white" means 'white'. Not "optic white", which indicates a
                white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it
                essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the
                Clorox corporation promises its customers), but plain old everyday
                white. It is almost without exception the color of all types of
                underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core
                period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It
                is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance
                shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions.

                Linen can be whitened in a number of ways without chemicals that
                weren't available before 1600. The most widely used is the simple
                exposure of damp linen to direct sunlight. In period there were
                designated communal bleaching greens in many villages, and large
                estates often had their own. They were used not only to whiten new
                fabric but to restore the whiteness of linen goods that had yellowed
                or to keep white linen white. (David Teniers the Younger's
                "Bleaching Ground" <http://www.abcgallery.com/T/teniers/
                teniers6.html>, painted about 45 years after the end of the S.C.A's
                period, shows a village bleaching green in action.) There were also
                professionals who used large bleaching greens, often in conjunction
                with various treatments that enhanced the effects of field-bleaching,
                to whiten quantities of new linen that were then passed on to
                clothiers and fabric-mongers. (There's an account of some techniques
                used in 16th-century Germany on page 131 of _The Workplace before the
                Factory_, as part of Thomas Max Safley's "Production, Transaction,
                and Proletarianization: The Textile Industry in Upper Swabia,
                1580-1660" <http://books.google.com/books?id=m-
                YDD2_ykGsC&pg=PA131>.) If I had to guess, I'd say those who could
                afford to bought professionally whitened fabric and used their local
                bleaching greens to maintain it, rather than starting with "brown
                linen" and bleaching their own. The latter process isn't
                particularly difficult, but it is slow and requires a fair amount of
                attention.

                > I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.
                > White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits,
                > an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet. I am SO
                > tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...

                I'm not clear on what basis you declare, "White was a 'status'
                color. . .," or to which culture and period you're referring when you
                do.

                In addition to the representational and archaeological evidence that
                underclothes were pretty much universally white across Europe between
                600 and 1600, there are a couple of obvious logical reasons they
                would've been.

                1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it,
                boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes
                that might run, shift, or fade. And you can just re-bleach it if you
                find you've got uneven shades resulting from intensive stain-removal
                treatments. So for garments you're going to sweat on and maybe spot
                with other bodily excretions, white's a smart choice.

                2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay
                fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is
                *hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble
                and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up.
                Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a
                much, much bigger bang for your buck.

                > Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into
                > earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle
                > Eastern garb???

                All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in
                some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of
                interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
                worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able
                to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too
                vague to elicit one.


                Coblaith Muimnech
                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                Kingdom of Ansteorra
                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                <http://coblaith.net>
              • Coblaith Muimnech
                ... There s a good article on the European adoption of what we now call cotton from The Costume Dabbler . It includes a
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 8 12:24 AM
                  Ziddina wrote:
                  > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
                  > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

                  There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
                  cotton from The Costume Dabbler <http://des.kyhm.com/cotton>. It
                  includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
                  information.


                  Coblaith Muimnech
                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                  <http://coblaith.net>
                • julian wilson
                  ... There s a good article on the European adoption of what we now call cotton from The Costume Dabbler . It includes a
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 8 1:56 AM
                    --- On Sun, 8/11/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote: Ziddina wrote:
                    > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
                    > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

                    There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
                    cotton from The Costume Dabbler <http://des.kyhm com/cotton>. It
                    includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
                    information.


                    COMMENT
                    entles All,
                    I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
                    The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other garments. but AFAIR. "cotton" was only supplied once or twice, against probably an hundred entries for buying/ supplying linen. And the most of the linen noted in these period manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.
                    I recall noting that the price of cotton cloth  from the Wardrobe costs about the same as the "holand" linen per ell ; but whether that denotes differing quality or differing width per piece, I didn't discover - because I was targeting the supply of other textiles within the Lists - skarlets, chamlet, sarcenet, &c. What does seem to be clear is that the cotton was imported from further-away from England than the Flanders linen; which would naturally have increased the price, whatever the width/length  per piece.

                    Servus,
                     Matthewe Baker.
                  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 8 11:09 AM
                      <<-----Original Message-----
                      From: Ziddinaaitzumar@...
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 7:41 pm
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...








                      Hmm. What an interesting question. I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as we know it today...

                      Having said that, I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white. White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits, an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet. I am SO tempted to use other colors for chemises, however... >>

                      I have been told, although I have not tried it, that linen can bleached simply by washing it and laying it on the grass in the sun to dry. If that is in fact the case, virtually anyone could have access to white linen. The fact of one's linen being white as a status symbol also refers to the fact that the owner had either enough chemises to always have a clean one available, or had the opportunity/servants to launder said chemises.

                      Brangwayna Morgan
                      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                      Lancaster, PA






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Coblaith Muimnech
                      ... It s not necessarily linen from the Low Countries. It might be linen sent to the Low Countries for finishing and then returned to England, or linen
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 8 3:27 PM
                        Matthewe Bake wrote:
                        > I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the
                        > English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's
                        > reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
                        > The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other
                        > garments.. . .the most of the linen noted in these period
                        > manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or
                        > flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make
                        > it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.

                        It's not necessarily linen from the Low Countries. It might be linen
                        sent to the Low Countries for finishing and then returned to England,
                        or linen finished in the British Isles using processes associated
                        with the Low Countries <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?
                        compid=58793> <http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8soAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA241>.


                        Coblaith Muimnech
                        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                        Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                        <http://coblaith.net>
                      • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                        Ziddina (me) wrote:  not an actual white as we know it today... Coblaith replied:  Not optic white , which indicates a white fabric that has
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 11 3:23 PM
                          Ziddina (me) wrote:  "not an actual 'white' as we know it today..."

                          Coblaith replied:  "Not "optic white", which indicates a white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the Clorox corporation promises its customers)..."



                          Uoops.  That "dayglow" white is what I think of as 'modern' white...  Didn't realize that a good 'white' could be achieved in 'period'; always assumed that 'period' white was more of a 'cream' or 'winter' white - off-white, in other words...



                          Colblaith wrote:  "It is almost without exception the color of all types of underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions."



                          RATS!  I like colors, and really wanted to get into 'colored' chemises/shifts...  I see the logic of your points, though, as you stated:  "1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it, boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes that might run, shift, or fade."



                          and "2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is *hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up. Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a much, much bigger bang for your buck."



                          Ziddina (me) said:  "Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle Eastern garb???"



                          Oh, I wish, I wish, I wish...


                          Coblaith replied:  "All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
                          worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too vague to elicit one."



                          Which means I ought to start cracking those books again...
                          Ziddina

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith@...>
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:19:14 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

                           




                          Ziddina wrote:
                          > I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an
                          > undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans
                          > used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
                          > conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as
                          > we know it today...

                          No; "white" means 'white'. Not "optic white", which indicates a
                          white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it
                          essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the
                          Clorox corporation promises its customers), but plain old everyday
                          white. It is almost without exception the color of all types of
                          underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core
                          period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It
                          is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance
                          shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions.

                          Linen can be whitened in a number of ways without chemicals that
                          weren't available before 1600. The most widely used is the simple
                          exposure of damp linen to direct sunlight. In period there were
                          designated communal bleaching greens in many villages, and large
                          estates often had their own. They were used not only to whiten new
                          fabric but to restore the whiteness of linen goods that had yellowed
                          or to keep white linen white. (David Teniers the Younger's
                          "Bleaching Ground" < http://www.abcgallery.com/T/teniers/
                          teniers6.html>, painted about 45 years after the end of the S.C.A's
                          period, shows a village bleaching green in action.) There were also
                          professionals who used large bleaching greens, often in conjunction
                          with various treatments that enhanced the effects of field-bleaching,
                          to whiten quantities of new linen that were then passed on to
                          clothiers and fabric-mongers. (There's an account of some techniques
                          used in 16th-century Germany on page 131 of _The Workplace before the
                          Factory_, as part of Thomas Max Safley's "Production, Transaction,
                          and Proletarianization: The Textile Industry in Upper Swabia,
                          1580-1660" < http://books.google.com/books?id=m-
                          YDD2_ykGsC&pg=PA131>.) If I had to guess, I'd say those who could
                          afford to bought professionally whitened fabric and used their local
                          bleaching greens to maintain it, rather than starting with "brown
                          linen" and bleaching their own. The latter process isn't
                          particularly difficult, but it is slow and requires a fair amount of
                          attention.

                          > I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.
                          > White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits,
                          > an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet. I am SO
                          > tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...

                          I'm not clear on what basis you declare, "White was a 'status'
                          color. . .," or to which culture and period you're referring when you
                          do.

                          In addition to the representational and archaeological evidence that
                          underclothes were pretty much universally white across Europe between
                          600 and 1600, there are a couple of obvious logical reasons they
                          would've been.

                          1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it,
                          boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes
                          that might run, shift, or fade. And you can just re-bleach it if you
                          find you've got uneven shades resulting from intensive stain-removal
                          treatments. So for garments you're going to sweat on and maybe spot
                          with other bodily excretions, white's a smart choice.

                          2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay
                          fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is
                          *hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble
                          and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up.
                          Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a
                          much, much bigger bang for your buck.

                          > Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into
                          > earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle
                          > Eastern garb???

                          All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in
                          some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of
                          interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
                          worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able
                          to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too
                          vague to elicit one.

                          Coblaith Muimnech
                          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                          Kingdom of Ansteorra
                          <mailto: Coblaith@... >
                          < http://coblaith.net >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                          Thank you!  Good information! ... From: julian wilson To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 2:56:03 AM GMT
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 11 3:25 PM
                            Thank you!  Good information!
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@...>
                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 2:56:03 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re:  cotton (was: Colors...)

                             




                            --- On Sun, 8/11/09, Coblaith Muimnech < Coblaith@... > wrote: Ziddina wrote:
                            > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
                            > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

                            There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
                            cotton from The Costume Dabbler < http://des.kyhm com/cotton>. It
                            includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
                            information.

                            COMMENT
                            entles All,
                            I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
                            The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other garments. but AFAIR. "cotton" was only supplied once or twice, against probably an hundred entries for buying/ supplying linen. And the most of the linen noted in these period manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.
                            I recall noting that the price of cotton cloth  from the Wardrobe costs about the same as the "holand" linen per ell ; but whether that denotes differing quality or differing width per piece, I didn't discover - because I was targeting the supply of other textiles within the Lists - skarlets, chamlet, sarcenet, &c. What does seem to be clear is that the cotton was imported from further-away from England than the Flanders linen; which would naturally have increased the price, whatever the width/length  per piece.

                            Servus,
                             Matthewe Baker.




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                            Thank you, I ll check out that link.  And as always, I d better bug my local libraries to import more books not available in my area...  Ziddina ... From:
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 11 3:25 PM
                              Thank you, I'll check out that link.  And as always, I'd better bug my local libraries to import more books not available in my area...  Ziddina
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith@...>
                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:24:18 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] cotton (was: Colors...)

                               




                              Ziddina wrote:
                              > Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
                              > that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

                              There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
                              cotton from The Costume Dabbler < http://des.kyhm.com/cotton >. It
                              includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
                              information.

                              Coblaith Muimnech
                              Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                              Kingdom of Ansteorra
                              <mailto: Coblaith@... >
                              < http://coblaith.net >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Callahan Patrick
                              I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 11 7:20 PM
                                I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In
                                Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally
                                Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police
                                Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest
                                That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That
                                Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience
                                Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred
                                Percent Correct If That Important To You

                                 

                                LOST  AND CONFUSED



                                Padhraig O' Cellachain















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • julian wilson
                                Colours of under clothing in late-1485 - and early 1486, -  Gentles all,  you may be interested to know that, in the English Wardrobe  & Exchequer
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 12 9:08 AM
                                  Colours of "under" clothing in late-1485 - and early 1486, -
                                   Gentles all,
                                   you may be interested to know that, in the English Wardrobe  & Exchequer Accounts listing cloth purchased - and clothing made-up - for the first 3 "big events" of King Henry VII's Reign, i.e. - the triumphant March from Leicester to London & First Parliament, The Coronation [9 weeks after Bosworth], and the later Coronation of Queen Elizabeth, -  that coloured silks are noted to have been purchased and tailored-up for shirts and coifs - not only for the King's Grace, but also for some of the Lords of His Train,  and one or two of the closest and highest Esquires & Servants of His Affinity.


                                  In Service to the medieval Dream,
                                   Lord Matthewe Baker, ODB,
                                   Drachenwald.

                                  --- On Thu, 12/11/09, Callahan Patrick <callahanpatrick@...> wrote:

                                  From: Callahan Patrick <callahanpatrick@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...
                                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, 12 November, 2009, 3:20







                                   













                                  I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In

                                  Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally

                                  Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police

                                  Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest

                                  That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That

                                  Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience

                                  Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred

                                  Percent Correct If That Important To You



                                   



                                  LOST  AND CONFUSED



                                  Padhraig O' Cellachain



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                                  Hee hee hee!  I like the way you think...  Ziddina ... From: Callahan Patrick To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 12 9:40 PM
                                    Hee hee hee!  I like the way you think...  Ziddina
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Callahan Patrick" <callahanpatrick@...>
                                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:20:48 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

                                     






                                    I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In
                                    Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally
                                    Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police
                                    Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest
                                    That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That
                                    Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or Convenience
                                    Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred
                                    Percent Correct If That Important To You

                                     

                                    LOST  AND CONFUSED

                                    Padhraig O' Cellachain

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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