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Re: Scribe/calligraphy questions

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  • Stefan li Rous
    Judith asked about the scribal arts:
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 2, 2009
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      Judith asked about the scribal arts:
      <<< I tried to join the SCA scribal arts email list, but the request was
      denied, so I'm asking here. Sorry if it's off-topic. >>>

      I don't see why it would be considered off-topic. I'd be surprised if
      the moderator denied your request if you indicated you were an SCA
      person and were interested in the scribal arts. I would try again, or
      email the moderator. If there are several, email all of them.

      <<< I know that scribes do the lettering and illuminators do the
      painting.
      I can't draw, but would like to learn calligraphy and learn to make
      scrolls. >>>

      Ah, making scrolls. So you want to learn parchment or paper making?
      Both of these are done in the SCA and there is some information on
      doing these in the SCRIBAL-ARTS section in the Florilegium. Oh.
      That's not what you meant? :-) You want to write on materials you get
      from elsewhere? Well, quite a lot of that is also done in the SCA,
      although very little is actually done on parchment.

      <<< That'll work if scribes do only lettering, and illuminators
      don't just color the pictures but also draw the outlines themselves.
      But if scribes have to make the pictures for illuminators to paint in,
      I don't think I'd be able to do that. Which one does the drawings
      which the illuminators color? >>>

      After you get good enough, you will sometimes be working with another
      person who will illuminate a scroll and leave some blank space for you
      to calig the legalese into, although most of the illumination and
      calligraphy in the SCA resembles that of period books of hours and not
      actual legal papers. Period legal papers and letters seldom had any
      illumination on them.

      For some info that I have collected over the past, almost 20 years, on
      calligraphy, see these files in the SCRIBAL-ARTS section of the
      Florilegium.
      alphabets-msg (36K) 4/26/99 Alphabets and how they've changed.
      Beg-C-a-I-lnks (16K) 2/11/05 Links to info on beginners
      calligraphy and
      Illumination by Dame Aoife Finn.
      calligraphy-msg (140K) 2/ 5/08 Inks, papers, calligraphic styles.
      callig-suppl-msg (47K) 10/15/99 Calligraphy and Illumination
      supplies.
      Herald-Scribe-art (14K) 8/19/02 "Heraldry and the Scribe" by
      Master Giles
      de Laval.
      L-Legal-Docs-art (20K) 2/ 9/08 "Large Legal Documents" by Lady
      Rebecca
      the Contrary.

      <<< Are there specific styles that must be used for scribing on official
      award scrolls, or will any beautiful manuscript style work? That is,
      does it have to be a documented, Period style ("font") or will
      anything work as long as it looks old-fashioned and lovely? >>>

      The handwriting and lettering style differed over time and place. Like
      the addition of new letters as detailed in the alphabets-msg file
      above, the scribes learn the handwriting for a particular culture and
      time. When you start working with someone, hopefully locally, they
      will probably work with you to learn an easy "hand" and you can then
      progress to others as your time and interest permits. Here are a
      couple of files in this section which talk about how the hands changed
      over time.

      Paleo-Scribes-art (25K) 9/ 5/97 "An Introduction to Palaeography for
      Scribes"
      scrpt-develop-art (57K) 6/20/00 "Societal Influences on Script
      Development"
      by Mistress Aquilanne Grace.

      <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>

      Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
      There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg dishes.

      Stefan
      --------
      THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
      Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
      **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
    • Dave Roland
      I started as a Scribe in the Midrealm. Judith Contact THLady Jocelyn of Lutterworth. She is the Midlands Regional Signet and is the person holding Calligraphy
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 3, 2009
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        I started as a Scribe in the Midrealm.

        Judith Contact THLady Jocelyn of Lutterworth. She is the Midlands Regional Signet and is the person holding Calligraphy and Illumination Nights in your area.

        She is an excellent resource and in the interest of full disclosure is my apprentice sister.

        _All_ scrolls in the Middle Kingdom are original works of art done by the scribes. The Midrealm (AKA Middle Kingdom) does not use printer paper or pre-printed scrolls.

        I myself am a Calligraphy Scribe and have had the pleasure of working with many pre-illuminated scrolls to do court scrolls on. These pre-illuminated scrolls are called scroll blanks. Each of them is hand done original work of art.

        Enjoy your learning experience. People who stick with Calligraphy find it to be a very rewarding hobby in the SCA.

        Ian the Green.
      • Judith Epstein
        ... Paper making would be fun, but what I meant was I wanted to learn to write scroll text. I ll try to be more clear in future. ... Thank you very much for
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
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          On Oct 2, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

          > Judith asked about the scribal arts:
          > <<< I can't draw, but would like to learn calligraphy and learn to
          > make
          > scrolls. >>>
          >
          > Ah, making scrolls. So you want to learn parchment or paper making?

          Paper making would be fun, but what I meant was I wanted to learn to
          write scroll text. I'll try to be more clear in future.

          > For some info that I have collected over the past, almost 20 years, on
          > calligraphy, see these files in the SCRIBAL-ARTS section of the
          > Florilegium.
          > alphabets-msg (36K) 4/26/99 Alphabets and how they've changed.
          > Beg-C-a-I-lnks (16K) 2/11/05 Links to info on beginners
          > calligraphy and
          > Illumination by Dame Aoife
          > Finn.
          > calligraphy-msg (140K) 2/ 5/08 Inks, papers, calligraphic styles.
          > callig-suppl-msg (47K) 10/15/99 Calligraphy and Illumination
          > supplies.
          > Herald-Scribe-art (14K) 8/19/02 "Heraldry and the Scribe" by
          > Master Giles
          > de Laval.
          > L-Legal-Docs-art (20K) 2/ 9/08 "Large Legal Documents" by Lady
          > Rebecca
          > the Contrary.
          > Here are a
          > couple of files in this section which talk about how the hands changed
          > over time.
          >
          > Paleo-Scribes-art (25K) 9/ 5/97 "An Introduction to Palaeography
          > for
          > Scribes"
          > scrpt-develop-art (57K) 6/20/00 "Societal Influences on Script
          > Development"
          > by Mistress Aquilanne Grace.

          Thank you very much for the above! That'll give me something to look
          through all week.

          > <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>
          >
          > Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
          > There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg
          > dishes.

          Egg, as in the very basic beginning of life. He's a Pelican, I'm only
          an egg. :)

          Judith / no SCA name yet
          Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg
          Midrealm, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
        • Justinos Tekton called Justin
          ... Just to clarify... She was denied posting on another list, not this one. Her post is perfectly acceptable on this list, because it relates to newcomer
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
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            On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 20:25 -0500, Stefan li Rous wrote:
            > Judith asked about the scribal arts:
            > <<< I tried to join the SCA scribal arts email list, but the request
            > was
            > denied, so I'm asking here. Sorry if it's off-topic. >>>
            >
            > I don't see why it would be considered off-topic. I'd be surprised
            > if
            > the moderator denied your request if you indicated you were an SCA
            > person and were interested in the scribal arts. I would try again,
            > or
            > email the moderator. If there are several, email all of them.


            Just to clarify... She was denied posting on another list, not this
            one. Her post is perfectly acceptable on this list, because it relates
            to newcomer information for scribal arts. :-)

            Kind regards,

            Justin
            List Moderator

            --
            ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
            Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
            Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
            fesswise reversed sable.

            justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
          • Justinos Tekton called Justin
            ... As a citizen of the Middle Kingdom, this never ceases to amaze me. I have friends who are calligraphers and illuminators, and so I know the amount of time
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
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              On Sat, 2009-10-03 at 15:52 +0000, Dave Roland wrote:
              > _All_ scrolls in the Middle Kingdom are original works of art done by
              > the scribes.

              As a citizen of the Middle Kingdom, this never ceases to amaze me. I
              have friends who are calligraphers and illuminators, and so I know the
              amount of time and expense that goes into these beautiful scrolls. I am
              privileged to have received several, and I treasure each one of them.

              The scribes who make these scrolls seldom receive anything more in
              return than a public "thank you" from the royalty. (I will say, the
              Midrealm royalty for the past few reigns have been very good about
              remembering to name and thank the scribes for each court.) Many scribes
              do this not just "once" or "occasionally", but "constantly."

              To me, this sort of behind-the-scenes service is an act of love of the
              highest order, and represents the very best of what we try to be in the
              SCA.

              Justin

              --
              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
              Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
              fesswise reversed sable.

              justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
            • (no author)
              Here is the response from Mistress Maeva I proised you, shes behind in her email again as shes in full production mode on some new scrolls. Not knowing which
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
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                Here is the response from Mistress Maeva I proised you, shes behind in her email again as shes in full production mode on some new scrolls.

                Not knowing which kingdom this young lady is from I'd recommend she
                contacts the kingdom Signet Clerk to ask for requirements regarding
                scroll production as these vary greatly from kingdom to kingdom. She
                should also join the scribes' mailinglist for her kingdom (and I have
                no clue as to why her subscription request for a mailinglist denied -
                I've never heard that happen before) and find out if there're any
                active scribes local to her group.


                Generally speaking all talents are desired: illuminators to paint
                artwork, calligraphers to write the words and limners to draw the
                designs. You will find scribes who do any combination of these three,
                some do only one and will do all three. There are plenty of materials
                out there, both online and in print material that teach you the
                medieval and historically accurate way of doing things. Please check
                with your kingdom's signet as to what styles are appropriate, however,
                since we do aspire to study and to re-create the Middle Ages, using
                historical examples to base your artwork on and using a historically
                accurate calligraphy style, also called a script, is always encouraged.


                Hope this helps!

                Cheers!
                Maeva





                Yours in Humble Service,
                Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
                "What man is a man that does not try to make the world better?"
                Kingdom of Heaven




                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                From: justin@...
                Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 09:35:00 -0400
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Scribe/calligraphy questions





















                On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 20:25 -0500, Stefan li Rous wrote:

                > Judith asked about the scribal arts:

                > <<< I tried to join the SCA scribal arts email list, but the request

                > was

                > denied, so I'm asking here. Sorry if it's off-topic. >>>

                >

                > I don't see why it would be considered off-topic. I'd be surprised

                > if

                > the moderator denied your request if you indicated you were an SCA

                > person and were interested in the scribal arts. I would try again,

                > or

                > email the moderator. If there are several, email all of them.



                Just to clarify... She was denied posting on another list, not this

                one. Her post is perfectly acceptable on this list, because it relates

                to newcomer information for scribal arts. :-)



                Kind regards,



                Justin

                List Moderator



                --

                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()

                Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)

                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys

                fesswise reversed sable.



                justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/






















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              • Judith Epstein
                Thank you so much, and thanks to Mistress Maeva. I ve written the Signet Clerk and will see what comes next. Judith / no SCA name yet Protege of Master
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
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                  Thank you so much, and thanks to Mistress Maeva. I've written the
                  Signet Clerk and will see what comes next.

                  Judith / no SCA name yet
                  Protege of Master Albrecht Waldfurster OP
                  Middle Kingdom, Barony of Ayreton, Shire of Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)

                  On Oct 5, 2009, at 1:29 PM, christopher chastain wrote:

                  >
                  > Here is the response from Mistress Maeva I proised you, shes behind
                  > in her email again as shes in full production mode on some new
                  > scrolls. [snip]
                • Dave Roland
                  ... ************* Having been a scribe in the Middle Kingdom and in Northshield, I must say that I greatly appreciate the public thank yous. I truly do. But
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 6, 2009
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                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Justinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Sat, 2009-10-03 at 15:52 +0000, Dave Roland wrote:
                    > > _All_ scrolls in the Middle Kingdom are original works of art done by
                    > > the scribes.
                    >
                    > As a citizen of the Middle Kingdom, this never ceases to amaze me. I
                    > have friends who are calligraphers and illuminators, and so I know the
                    > amount of time and expense that goes into these beautiful scrolls. I am
                    > privileged to have received several, and I treasure each one of them.
                    >
                    > The scribes who make these scrolls seldom receive anything more in
                    > return than a public "thank you" from the royalty.\

                    *************

                    Having been a scribe in the Middle Kingdom and in Northshield, I must say that I greatly appreciate the public thank yous. I truly do. But I do have to say that the "payment" I get is the smile on the recipient's face as they walk back to their seat holding the scroll.

                    Their Majesties are the ones who chose to give the award or induct someone into an order. The person receiving it is the person who earned it by their deeds and actions. Me? I merely am the person who put pen to paper so the recipient will have a tangible memory and proof. And the smile tells me that it will be a good memory for them and in some small way, I had a part in that. It is a happy service I and other scribes provide.

                    Ian the Green, AoA, APF
                  • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                    ... I received a scroll a couple of years ago for an A&S award, for armouring. The scribe who got the illumination assignment took the time to go find a photo
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 6, 2009
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                      On Tue, 2009-10-06 at 19:54 +0000, Dave Roland wrote:
                      > Having been a scribe in the Middle Kingdom and in Northshield, I must
                      > say that I greatly appreciate the public thank yous. I truly do. But
                      > I do have to say that the "payment" I get is the smile on the
                      > recipient's face as they walk back to their seat holding the scroll.

                      I received a scroll a couple of years ago for an A&S award, for
                      armouring. The scribe who got the illumination assignment took the time
                      to go find a photo of me on a web site. Then she illuminated the scroll
                      with an excellent rendering of me hammering rivets at a workbench! It is
                      so unbelievably cool! It took some doing, but I was really glad to
                      finally track her down at an event and thank her in person.

                      Justin

                      --
                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                      Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                      fesswise reversed sable.

                      justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                    • Stefan li Rous
                      ... Paper making would be fun, but what I meant was I wanted to learn to write scroll text. I ll try to be more clear in future. ... I was joking. I understood
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 6, 2009
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                        Judith replied to me with:

                        > Judith asked about the scribal arts:
                        > <<< I can't draw, but would like to learn calligraphy and learn to
                        > make scrolls. >>>
                        >
                        > Ah, making scrolls. So you want to learn parchment or paper making?

                        Paper making would be fun, but what I meant was I wanted to learn to
                        write scroll text. I'll try to be more clear in future.
                        -------

                        I was joking. I understood what your original question was about.

                        However, there are these two files in the SCRIBAL-ARTS section of the
                        Florilegium, for those who might be interested.
                        paper-msg (9K) 9/27/00 Medieval paper. Sources for
                        similar paper.
                        parchment-msg (62K) 1/16/08 Making and buying parchment.
                        substitutes.

                        Unfortunately, not a lot on making paper. Perhaps someone has written
                        or would be willing to write an for the Florilegium. I remember a
                        good, hands-on demo on making paper at Lilies War a few years ago.


                        > <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>
                        >
                        > Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
                        > There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg
                        > dishes.

                        Egg, as in the very basic beginning of life. He's a Pelican, I'm only
                        an egg. :)
                        --------
                        Okay, just so you don't get hard-boiled or scrambled.

                        Stefan
                        An old egg (or was that odd...)
                        --------
                        THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                        **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                      • Judith Epstein
                        ... I m pretty sure it s too late for that. I m already a bit scrambled. ;) Judith / no SCA name yet Protege to Master Albrecht Waldfurster OP Middle Kingdom,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 7, 2009
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                          On Oct 6, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

                          >> <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>
                          >>
                          >> Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
                          >> There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg
                          >> dishes.
                          >
                          > Egg, as in the very basic beginning of life. He's a Pelican, I'm only
                          > an egg. :)
                          > --------
                          > Okay, just so you don't get hard-boiled or scrambled.
                          >
                          > Stefan
                          > An old egg (or was that odd...)

                          I'm pretty sure it's too late for that. I'm already a bit scrambled. ;)

                          Judith / no SCA name yet
                          Protege to Master Albrecht Waldfurster OP
                          Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                        • Dave Roland
                          Egg yolk for tempura in paints. Egg whites for glaire. Egg shells for tempering Oak Gall ink. Ian the Green
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 8, 2009
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                            Egg yolk for tempura in paints.

                            Egg whites for glaire.

                            Egg shells for tempering Oak Gall ink.

                            Ian the Green

                            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Judith Epstein <judith@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > On Oct 6, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
                            >
                            > >> <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>
                            > >>
                            > >> Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
                            > >> There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg
                            > >> dishes.
                            > >
                            > > Egg, as in the very basic beginning of life. He's a Pelican, I'm only
                            > > an egg. :)
                            > > --------
                            > > Okay, just so you don't get hard-boiled or scrambled.
                            > >
                            > > Stefan
                            > > An old egg (or was that odd...)
                            >
                            > I'm pretty sure it's too late for that. I'm already a bit scrambled. ;)
                            >
                            > Judith / no SCA name yet
                            > Protege to Master Albrecht Waldfurster OP
                            > Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                            >
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