Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [SCA Newcomers] Scribe/calligraphy questions

Expand Messages
  • (no author)
    I think I can help... or at least find the right direction. Calligraphy and illumination are not my specialties, though I have been known to dabble a bit in
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      I think I can help... or at least find the right direction.

      Calligraphy and illumination are not my specialties, though I have been known to dabble a bit in this particular art.

      'Usually'... the person creating the document will do both the lettering of the text and the illumination. As far as styles... I have seen many different styles, but the idea is to keep in within the medeival look as much as possible. If you can document the style and such... GOOD FOR YOU!!! That's fantastic. Keep the lettering as close to period styles as you can. It will give the document a more authentic look and add to the medeival experience... especially if what you are doing is an award document.



      Oh yeah... and by the way... Not all of our award scrolls have been done on paper, vellum, or parchment. I've seen embroidered cloth, painted fabric, leather, stone, metal, a stick of rattan, an ostrich egg...

      There are bunches and bunches of stuff to look at on the web. All of them are a good starting point.



      Here's the link to my home Kongdom's scribal gallery. There's some good examples to look at.



      http://scribes.outlands.org/Default.aspx?tabid=832



      Hope that at least helped...



      Have FUN. Make Stuff!!!



      Grellan



      Mast. Grellan O'Conchobhair OL
      Kingdom of the Outlands







      EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD
      Join me




      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      From: judith@...
      Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 12:42:30 -0500
      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Scribe/calligraphy questions




      Thanks so much!

      On Oct 1, 2009, at 12:34 PM, christopher chastain wrote:

      > I forwarded your questions on to a Laurel friend of mine who got her
      > laurelate for scroll work. When she replies back ill post it to the
      > list. Some folks on this list might know her, Mistress Maeva of
      > Trimaris
      >
      > Yours in Humble Service,
      > Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
      >
      > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      > From: judith@...
      > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 12:28:13 -0500
      > Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Scribe/calligraphy questions
      >
      > I tried to join the SCA scribal arts email list, but the request was
      > denied, so I'm asking here. Sorry if it's off-topic. [snip]
      >
      > Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________________
      > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that�s right for you.
      > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >










      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stefan li Rous
      Judith asked about the scribal arts:
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 2, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Judith asked about the scribal arts:
        <<< I tried to join the SCA scribal arts email list, but the request was
        denied, so I'm asking here. Sorry if it's off-topic. >>>

        I don't see why it would be considered off-topic. I'd be surprised if
        the moderator denied your request if you indicated you were an SCA
        person and were interested in the scribal arts. I would try again, or
        email the moderator. If there are several, email all of them.

        <<< I know that scribes do the lettering and illuminators do the
        painting.
        I can't draw, but would like to learn calligraphy and learn to make
        scrolls. >>>

        Ah, making scrolls. So you want to learn parchment or paper making?
        Both of these are done in the SCA and there is some information on
        doing these in the SCRIBAL-ARTS section in the Florilegium. Oh.
        That's not what you meant? :-) You want to write on materials you get
        from elsewhere? Well, quite a lot of that is also done in the SCA,
        although very little is actually done on parchment.

        <<< That'll work if scribes do only lettering, and illuminators
        don't just color the pictures but also draw the outlines themselves.
        But if scribes have to make the pictures for illuminators to paint in,
        I don't think I'd be able to do that. Which one does the drawings
        which the illuminators color? >>>

        After you get good enough, you will sometimes be working with another
        person who will illuminate a scroll and leave some blank space for you
        to calig the legalese into, although most of the illumination and
        calligraphy in the SCA resembles that of period books of hours and not
        actual legal papers. Period legal papers and letters seldom had any
        illumination on them.

        For some info that I have collected over the past, almost 20 years, on
        calligraphy, see these files in the SCRIBAL-ARTS section of the
        Florilegium.
        alphabets-msg (36K) 4/26/99 Alphabets and how they've changed.
        Beg-C-a-I-lnks (16K) 2/11/05 Links to info on beginners
        calligraphy and
        Illumination by Dame Aoife Finn.
        calligraphy-msg (140K) 2/ 5/08 Inks, papers, calligraphic styles.
        callig-suppl-msg (47K) 10/15/99 Calligraphy and Illumination
        supplies.
        Herald-Scribe-art (14K) 8/19/02 "Heraldry and the Scribe" by
        Master Giles
        de Laval.
        L-Legal-Docs-art (20K) 2/ 9/08 "Large Legal Documents" by Lady
        Rebecca
        the Contrary.

        <<< Are there specific styles that must be used for scribing on official
        award scrolls, or will any beautiful manuscript style work? That is,
        does it have to be a documented, Period style ("font") or will
        anything work as long as it looks old-fashioned and lovely? >>>

        The handwriting and lettering style differed over time and place. Like
        the addition of new letters as detailed in the alphabets-msg file
        above, the scribes learn the handwriting for a particular culture and
        time. When you start working with someone, hopefully locally, they
        will probably work with you to learn an easy "hand" and you can then
        progress to others as your time and interest permits. Here are a
        couple of files in this section which talk about how the hands changed
        over time.

        Paleo-Scribes-art (25K) 9/ 5/97 "An Introduction to Palaeography for
        Scribes"
        scrpt-develop-art (57K) 6/20/00 "Societal Influences on Script
        Development"
        by Mistress Aquilanne Grace.

        <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>

        Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
        There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg dishes.

        Stefan
        --------
        THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
        Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
        **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
      • Dave Roland
        I started as a Scribe in the Midrealm. Judith Contact THLady Jocelyn of Lutterworth. She is the Midlands Regional Signet and is the person holding Calligraphy
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 3, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          I started as a Scribe in the Midrealm.

          Judith Contact THLady Jocelyn of Lutterworth. She is the Midlands Regional Signet and is the person holding Calligraphy and Illumination Nights in your area.

          She is an excellent resource and in the interest of full disclosure is my apprentice sister.

          _All_ scrolls in the Middle Kingdom are original works of art done by the scribes. The Midrealm (AKA Middle Kingdom) does not use printer paper or pre-printed scrolls.

          I myself am a Calligraphy Scribe and have had the pleasure of working with many pre-illuminated scrolls to do court scrolls on. These pre-illuminated scrolls are called scroll blanks. Each of them is hand done original work of art.

          Enjoy your learning experience. People who stick with Calligraphy find it to be a very rewarding hobby in the SCA.

          Ian the Green.
        • Judith Epstein
          ... Paper making would be fun, but what I meant was I wanted to learn to write scroll text. I ll try to be more clear in future. ... Thank you very much for
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            On Oct 2, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

            > Judith asked about the scribal arts:
            > <<< I can't draw, but would like to learn calligraphy and learn to
            > make
            > scrolls. >>>
            >
            > Ah, making scrolls. So you want to learn parchment or paper making?

            Paper making would be fun, but what I meant was I wanted to learn to
            write scroll text. I'll try to be more clear in future.

            > For some info that I have collected over the past, almost 20 years, on
            > calligraphy, see these files in the SCRIBAL-ARTS section of the
            > Florilegium.
            > alphabets-msg (36K) 4/26/99 Alphabets and how they've changed.
            > Beg-C-a-I-lnks (16K) 2/11/05 Links to info on beginners
            > calligraphy and
            > Illumination by Dame Aoife
            > Finn.
            > calligraphy-msg (140K) 2/ 5/08 Inks, papers, calligraphic styles.
            > callig-suppl-msg (47K) 10/15/99 Calligraphy and Illumination
            > supplies.
            > Herald-Scribe-art (14K) 8/19/02 "Heraldry and the Scribe" by
            > Master Giles
            > de Laval.
            > L-Legal-Docs-art (20K) 2/ 9/08 "Large Legal Documents" by Lady
            > Rebecca
            > the Contrary.
            > Here are a
            > couple of files in this section which talk about how the hands changed
            > over time.
            >
            > Paleo-Scribes-art (25K) 9/ 5/97 "An Introduction to Palaeography
            > for
            > Scribes"
            > scrpt-develop-art (57K) 6/20/00 "Societal Influences on Script
            > Development"
            > by Mistress Aquilanne Grace.

            Thank you very much for the above! That'll give me something to look
            through all week.

            > <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>
            >
            > Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
            > There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg
            > dishes.

            Egg, as in the very basic beginning of life. He's a Pelican, I'm only
            an egg. :)

            Judith / no SCA name yet
            Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg
            Midrealm, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
          • Justinos Tekton called Justin
            ... Just to clarify... She was denied posting on another list, not this one. Her post is perfectly acceptable on this list, because it relates to newcomer
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 20:25 -0500, Stefan li Rous wrote:
              > Judith asked about the scribal arts:
              > <<< I tried to join the SCA scribal arts email list, but the request
              > was
              > denied, so I'm asking here. Sorry if it's off-topic. >>>
              >
              > I don't see why it would be considered off-topic. I'd be surprised
              > if
              > the moderator denied your request if you indicated you were an SCA
              > person and were interested in the scribal arts. I would try again,
              > or
              > email the moderator. If there are several, email all of them.


              Just to clarify... She was denied posting on another list, not this
              one. Her post is perfectly acceptable on this list, because it relates
              to newcomer information for scribal arts. :-)

              Kind regards,

              Justin
              List Moderator

              --
              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
              Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
              fesswise reversed sable.

              justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
            • Justinos Tekton called Justin
              ... As a citizen of the Middle Kingdom, this never ceases to amaze me. I have friends who are calligraphers and illuminators, and so I know the amount of time
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                On Sat, 2009-10-03 at 15:52 +0000, Dave Roland wrote:
                > _All_ scrolls in the Middle Kingdom are original works of art done by
                > the scribes.

                As a citizen of the Middle Kingdom, this never ceases to amaze me. I
                have friends who are calligraphers and illuminators, and so I know the
                amount of time and expense that goes into these beautiful scrolls. I am
                privileged to have received several, and I treasure each one of them.

                The scribes who make these scrolls seldom receive anything more in
                return than a public "thank you" from the royalty. (I will say, the
                Midrealm royalty for the past few reigns have been very good about
                remembering to name and thank the scribes for each court.) Many scribes
                do this not just "once" or "occasionally", but "constantly."

                To me, this sort of behind-the-scenes service is an act of love of the
                highest order, and represents the very best of what we try to be in the
                SCA.

                Justin

                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                fesswise reversed sable.

                justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
              • (no author)
                Here is the response from Mistress Maeva I proised you, shes behind in her email again as shes in full production mode on some new scrolls. Not knowing which
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Here is the response from Mistress Maeva I proised you, shes behind in her email again as shes in full production mode on some new scrolls.

                  Not knowing which kingdom this young lady is from I'd recommend she
                  contacts the kingdom Signet Clerk to ask for requirements regarding
                  scroll production as these vary greatly from kingdom to kingdom. She
                  should also join the scribes' mailinglist for her kingdom (and I have
                  no clue as to why her subscription request for a mailinglist denied -
                  I've never heard that happen before) and find out if there're any
                  active scribes local to her group.


                  Generally speaking all talents are desired: illuminators to paint
                  artwork, calligraphers to write the words and limners to draw the
                  designs. You will find scribes who do any combination of these three,
                  some do only one and will do all three. There are plenty of materials
                  out there, both online and in print material that teach you the
                  medieval and historically accurate way of doing things. Please check
                  with your kingdom's signet as to what styles are appropriate, however,
                  since we do aspire to study and to re-create the Middle Ages, using
                  historical examples to base your artwork on and using a historically
                  accurate calligraphy style, also called a script, is always encouraged.


                  Hope this helps!

                  Cheers!
                  Maeva





                  Yours in Humble Service,
                  Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
                  "What man is a man that does not try to make the world better?"
                  Kingdom of Heaven




                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  From: justin@...
                  Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 09:35:00 -0400
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Scribe/calligraphy questions





















                  On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 20:25 -0500, Stefan li Rous wrote:

                  > Judith asked about the scribal arts:

                  > <<< I tried to join the SCA scribal arts email list, but the request

                  > was

                  > denied, so I'm asking here. Sorry if it's off-topic. >>>

                  >

                  > I don't see why it would be considered off-topic. I'd be surprised

                  > if

                  > the moderator denied your request if you indicated you were an SCA

                  > person and were interested in the scribal arts. I would try again,

                  > or

                  > email the moderator. If there are several, email all of them.



                  Just to clarify... She was denied posting on another list, not this

                  one. Her post is perfectly acceptable on this list, because it relates

                  to newcomer information for scribal arts. :-)



                  Kind regards,



                  Justin

                  List Moderator



                  --

                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()

                  Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)

                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys

                  fesswise reversed sable.



                  justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/






















                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft�s powerful SPAM protection.
                  http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Judith Epstein
                  Thank you so much, and thanks to Mistress Maeva. I ve written the Signet Clerk and will see what comes next. Judith / no SCA name yet Protege of Master
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 5, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank you so much, and thanks to Mistress Maeva. I've written the
                    Signet Clerk and will see what comes next.

                    Judith / no SCA name yet
                    Protege of Master Albrecht Waldfurster OP
                    Middle Kingdom, Barony of Ayreton, Shire of Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)

                    On Oct 5, 2009, at 1:29 PM, christopher chastain wrote:

                    >
                    > Here is the response from Mistress Maeva I proised you, shes behind
                    > in her email again as shes in full production mode on some new
                    > scrolls. [snip]
                  • Dave Roland
                    ... ************* Having been a scribe in the Middle Kingdom and in Northshield, I must say that I greatly appreciate the public thank yous. I truly do. But
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 6, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Justinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Sat, 2009-10-03 at 15:52 +0000, Dave Roland wrote:
                      > > _All_ scrolls in the Middle Kingdom are original works of art done by
                      > > the scribes.
                      >
                      > As a citizen of the Middle Kingdom, this never ceases to amaze me. I
                      > have friends who are calligraphers and illuminators, and so I know the
                      > amount of time and expense that goes into these beautiful scrolls. I am
                      > privileged to have received several, and I treasure each one of them.
                      >
                      > The scribes who make these scrolls seldom receive anything more in
                      > return than a public "thank you" from the royalty.\

                      *************

                      Having been a scribe in the Middle Kingdom and in Northshield, I must say that I greatly appreciate the public thank yous. I truly do. But I do have to say that the "payment" I get is the smile on the recipient's face as they walk back to their seat holding the scroll.

                      Their Majesties are the ones who chose to give the award or induct someone into an order. The person receiving it is the person who earned it by their deeds and actions. Me? I merely am the person who put pen to paper so the recipient will have a tangible memory and proof. And the smile tells me that it will be a good memory for them and in some small way, I had a part in that. It is a happy service I and other scribes provide.

                      Ian the Green, AoA, APF
                    • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                      ... I received a scroll a couple of years ago for an A&S award, for armouring. The scribe who got the illumination assignment took the time to go find a photo
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 6, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Tue, 2009-10-06 at 19:54 +0000, Dave Roland wrote:
                        > Having been a scribe in the Middle Kingdom and in Northshield, I must
                        > say that I greatly appreciate the public thank yous. I truly do. But
                        > I do have to say that the "payment" I get is the smile on the
                        > recipient's face as they walk back to their seat holding the scroll.

                        I received a scroll a couple of years ago for an A&S award, for
                        armouring. The scribe who got the illumination assignment took the time
                        to go find a photo of me on a web site. Then she illuminated the scroll
                        with an excellent rendering of me hammering rivets at a workbench! It is
                        so unbelievably cool! It took some doing, but I was really glad to
                        finally track her down at an event and thank her in person.

                        Justin

                        --
                        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                        Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                        fesswise reversed sable.

                        justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                      • Stefan li Rous
                        ... Paper making would be fun, but what I meant was I wanted to learn to write scroll text. I ll try to be more clear in future. ... I was joking. I understood
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 6, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Judith replied to me with:

                          > Judith asked about the scribal arts:
                          > <<< I can't draw, but would like to learn calligraphy and learn to
                          > make scrolls. >>>
                          >
                          > Ah, making scrolls. So you want to learn parchment or paper making?

                          Paper making would be fun, but what I meant was I wanted to learn to
                          write scroll text. I'll try to be more clear in future.
                          -------

                          I was joking. I understood what your original question was about.

                          However, there are these two files in the SCRIBAL-ARTS section of the
                          Florilegium, for those who might be interested.
                          paper-msg (9K) 9/27/00 Medieval paper. Sources for
                          similar paper.
                          parchment-msg (62K) 1/16/08 Making and buying parchment.
                          substitutes.

                          Unfortunately, not a lot on making paper. Perhaps someone has written
                          or would be willing to write an for the Florilegium. I remember a
                          good, hands-on demo on making paper at Lilies War a few years ago.


                          > <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>
                          >
                          > Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
                          > There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg
                          > dishes.

                          Egg, as in the very basic beginning of life. He's a Pelican, I'm only
                          an egg. :)
                          --------
                          Okay, just so you don't get hard-boiled or scrambled.

                          Stefan
                          An old egg (or was that odd...)
                          --------
                          THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                          Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                          **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                        • Judith Epstein
                          ... I m pretty sure it s too late for that. I m already a bit scrambled. ;) Judith / no SCA name yet Protege to Master Albrecht Waldfurster OP Middle Kingdom,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 7, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Oct 6, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

                            >> <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>
                            >>
                            >> Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
                            >> There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg
                            >> dishes.
                            >
                            > Egg, as in the very basic beginning of life. He's a Pelican, I'm only
                            > an egg. :)
                            > --------
                            > Okay, just so you don't get hard-boiled or scrambled.
                            >
                            > Stefan
                            > An old egg (or was that odd...)

                            I'm pretty sure it's too late for that. I'm already a bit scrambled. ;)

                            Judith / no SCA name yet
                            Protege to Master Albrecht Waldfurster OP
                            Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                          • Dave Roland
                            Egg yolk for tempura in paints. Egg whites for glaire. Egg shells for tempering Oak Gall ink. Ian the Green
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 8, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Egg yolk for tempura in paints.

                              Egg whites for glaire.

                              Egg shells for tempering Oak Gall ink.

                              Ian the Green

                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Judith Epstein <judith@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > On Oct 6, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
                              >
                              > >> <<< Judith / Master Albrecht Waldfurster's egg >>>
                              > >>
                              > >> Egg? I believe egg whites are used to attach gold foil by scribes...
                              > >> There are also period recipes in the Florilegium for various egg
                              > >> dishes.
                              > >
                              > > Egg, as in the very basic beginning of life. He's a Pelican, I'm only
                              > > an egg. :)
                              > > --------
                              > > Okay, just so you don't get hard-boiled or scrambled.
                              > >
                              > > Stefan
                              > > An old egg (or was that odd...)
                              >
                              > I'm pretty sure it's too late for that. I'm already a bit scrambled. ;)
                              >
                              > Judith / no SCA name yet
                              > Protege to Master Albrecht Waldfurster OP
                              > Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)
                              >
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.