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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?

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  • Tonya
    You might want to try Jan Tana tanning products. Its what bodybuilders use to get a deep dark tan for competions. I ve heard it stains the skin and takes days
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
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      You might want to try Jan Tana tanning products. Its what bodybuilders use to get a deep dark tan for competions. I've heard it stains the skin and takes days to come off completely but will bleed off some on clothes but might work to get u through a weekend event. There website is www.jantana.com

      Maerwynn
      Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Judith Epstein <judith@...>

      Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:52:10
      To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>; <sca-middle@...>; <SCA-Tree-Girt-Sea@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?


      I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
      okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
      skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
      the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
      redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and I'm
      going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black like
      a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
      the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
      been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
      success, and why it doesn't work for me:

      1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.

      2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
      wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.

      3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
      it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
      there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.

      4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an injection
      of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
      by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
      which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin cancer,
      which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and it's
      expensive.

      5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin orange
      like henna.

      6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
      far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.

      Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily over a
      period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the duration of
      a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
      washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
      Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).

      -- Judith / Divash




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
      Hmm.  I ve wondered about that, myself.  Speaking from personal experience here, in the western U.S., people of color seem to generally be accepted as part
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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        Hmm.  I've wondered about that, myself.  Speaking from personal experience here, in the western U.S., people of 'color' seem to generally be accepted as part of the group.



        In fact, that Laurel who I've complained about (her extremely boorish behavior towards people's garb, she tended to run up to people and begin snatching at their clothes/hats/hairpieces without so much as a "by-your-leave"), is a person 'of color'...  She was VERY WELL established within her Barony; so much so that everyone else ['white'] feared to bring the unpleasant aspects of her behavior to her attention...



        Which I DID do, because I can't stand rude, stupid behavior no matter WHAT color the person is.  As one of Herman Melville's characters said in "Moby Dick", "I'd strike the sun if it insulted me!"  In other words, I speak my mind forcefully and directly, often with little to no regard for a person's 'status' within the SCA - or corporate America, for that matter.



        My behavior towards her started [rumors abound in the SCA] a rumor that I was 'prejudiced' against her because of her 'color'.  Hmmm.  Little did any of the SCA members know that I'd dated a black man when in my early twenties, and had actually proposed marriage TO HIM.  Luckily for him, he turned me down.  (I'm a redhead - sort of - with a fiery temper.  Pray for my current husband...)



        I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world, there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice.  Personally, I've been prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the behavior of that one woman...



        Dunno if that helped answer your question...  Actually, I've got olive skin [pale], dark eyes, and ash-brown hair that turns reddish in the sun.  I'm what is called "Black" Irish - I've got Spanish blood from somewhere back in time (probably the time of the Spanish Armada...) and through the Spanish blood, may even have some Berber/Moorish blood in me...



        Which, interestingly enough, turned out to be the persona I chose for playing in the SCA...



        Ziddina ait Zumar - name registered, slightly pre-period Berber [Imazighen] name from the area of North Africa in the time [roughly] of Imperial Rome.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Callahan Patrick" <callahanpatrick@...>
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:33:07 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?

         





        To Whom It May Concern:

        I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to primarily appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I understand that this could be interpreted as a natural out growth of The Society For Professional Anachronism's mission to study and learn about certain aspects of European History, however if it would be possible I would be very interested in knowing to what extent if any other races participate in your games of skill and more generally in the context of your events. Do you believe that people of these other races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome in your groups? Does anyone have information on this?

        PMC_,___













        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Coblaith Muimnech
        ... I m going to assume you meant The Society for Creative Anachronism , since that s the organization with this Yahoo! Group is associated. I wouldn t
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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          PMC wrote:
          > I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at
          > least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to
          > primarily appeal to people of the white or paler
          > complexion.. . .Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome
          > in your groups?

          I'm going to assume you meant "The Society for Creative Anachronism",
          since that's the organization with this Yahoo! Group is associated.

          I wouldn't hesitate to take a friend of any phenotype to an S.C.A.
          event or meeting. I'm sure there are bigoted apples in the barrel
          and that the degree to which color is an issue varies from branch to
          branch in the Society as it does from town to town within the rest of
          the U.S. population, but I think it likely that the S.C.A., as a
          whole, is a little more "colorblind" than American society, as a
          whole. Generally speaking, we tend to attract more folks who stand
          closer to the live-and-let-live end of the spectrum than to the
          different-from-me-is-wrong end.

          My barony is based in Austin, Texas. We have only a handful of
          members who aren't white (based on their appearance--I haven't done
          any polls to determine self-perceived identities), but most of the
          people who come looking for us or who happen across one of our
          meetings are also white. I think the proportions are probably about
          the same. I know that our officers, guild leaders, and event
          planners approach and respond to prospective and current members the
          same way regardless of their apparent ethnicities, and that all the
          people with whom I've spent much time at meetings and events do
          likewise. If there is anyone in the branch who doesn't, they keep it
          subtle and out of public view (like most modern racists in most
          settings), and are doubtless aware that the majority response to any
          overt racism would be strongly negative. I suspect that is true of
          most, if not all, S.C.A. branches.

          Apparent ethnicity is certainly not a barrier to participation in any
          area of Society life. Gentles of varied backgrounds hold high
          offices, are inducted into prestigious orders, and adopt personae
          from whichever cultures interest them. (Our most active "Persian",
          locally, has red hair and freckles, and the "Welsh" lady who used to
          be principal of our dance guild has epicanthic folds.) And there
          aren't any color-based glass ceilings. The crown prince and princess
          present when I received my Award of Arms were African American
          <http://historian.ansteorra.org/wiki/index.php?title=54th_Crown>, for
          example, and the peerages are (from what I've seen) about as
          ethnically diverse as the rest of the Society.


          Coblaith Muimnech
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
          <http://coblaith.net>
        • Stefan li Rous
          Callahan Patrick callahanpatrick@yahoo.co.uk naspiritwalker@prodigy.net asked:
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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            "Callahan Patrick" callahanpatrick@... naspiritwalker@...
            asked:

            <<< I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at
            least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to
            primarily appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I
            understand that this could be interpreted as a natural out growth of
            The Society For Professional Anachronism's mission to study and learn
            about certain aspects of European History, however if it would be
            possible I would be very interested in knowing to what extent if any
            other races participate in your games of skill and more generally in
            the context of your events. Do you believe that people of these other
            races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For
            Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel
            welcome in your groups? Does anyone have information on this? >>>

            In some ways this sounds like a troll trying to stir up confrontation,
            which I've seen through the years on the Rialto (rec.org.sca).
            However, I will assume you are not doing this and will try to answer
            your questions.

            Likely, the SCA appeals mostly to those of white, European and Middle
            Eastern descent because those are the areas that the SCA concentrates
            on. However, skin color means little in the Society. I've seen plenty
            of red-haired blue-eyed Japanese personas and blond Italians. Frankly,
            most of the people in the SCA tend to be on the more liberal side,
            especially with freedom of action and personal choice. Skin color
            makes little difference and it is also very tolerant of non-mainstream
            religions.

            As an example, one of the most popular kings we've had in Ansteorra
            was Mahti, who happens to be a fairly dark-skinned black man. While it
            is possible to win the kingship on brute strength alone, it tends to
            require more and it definitely requires more to be known as a good
            monarch and a chivalrous fighter who people are happy to see win.

            I am in the same barony as Coblaith, but lest you think we are too
            small a sample size, there are these files in the SCA-SOCIOLOGY
            section of the Florilegium. They give a cross-section of viewpoints
            from other regions across the Known World.

            SCA-gays-msg (16K) 9/17/98 Acceptance of Gays and Lesbians in
            the SCA.
            http://www.florilegium.org/files/SCA-SOCIOLOGY/SCA-gays-msg.html

            SCA-minorites-msg (7K) 10/31/00 Attitudes in the SCA toward
            minorities.
            http://www.florilegium.org/files/SCA-SOCIOLOGY/SCA-minorties-msg.html

            Stefan
            --------
            THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
            Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
            **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            In a message dated 7/15/2009 11:33:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, callahanpatrick@yahoo.co.uk writes:
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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              In a message dated 7/15/2009 11:33:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              callahanpatrick@... writes:

              <<I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least
              as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to primarily
              appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I understand that this could
              be interpreted as a natural out growth of The Society For Professional
              Anachronism's mission to study and learn about certain aspects of European
              History, however if it would be possible I would be very interested in knowing
              to what extent if any other races participate in your games of skill and
              more generally in the context of your events. Do you believe that people of
              these other races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For
              Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome
              in your groups? Does anyone have information on this?>>

              From what I've seen in 20 years, I don't think it makes much difference to
              most people in the SCA what anybody looks like. My local group is, yes,
              primarily Caucasian and has been for 20 years, although we have had several
              Hispanic members including one currently. Certainly none of us could care
              less what a person's ethnicity is.
              In thinking back over people I've met in 20 years, I can think of a number
              of black and Asian members that I've seen, and oddly enough, most of the
              ones I think of hold high rank in the SCA. Duchess Isabella of York, not
              only a royal peer but also a Laurel (for Elizabethan costuming) is a black
              woman married to a white man. Sir Diablu, commonly referred to as "The Black
              Knight of the East". Mistress Dorigen, a Laurel. Another lady whose name
              I am not sure of, who is a Pelican. Count Jafar of the Midrealm, may he
              rest in peace. There are more beyond that. (Laurels are recognized
              Society-wide for their skill in the arts, Pelicans for their service, and Knight
              for prowess in heavy weapons combat. Duchess and Count and similar titles
              denote those who have served as King and Queen.)

              For what it's worth, there's little if any prejudice towards anyone with a
              handicap, either. I've known a number of people with physical disabilities
              who have participated fully in the SCA, including a knight who is an
              amputee (and he joined the SCA after he lost the leg and was knighted for
              fighting prowess, fighting on one leg and a crutch), people with hearing or
              vision loss, and people with a variety of neurologic disabilities such as
              cerebral palsy and spina bifida.

              Brangwayna Morgan
              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
              Lancaster PA

              **************S T R E T C H your technology dollars with great laptop
              deals from Dell!
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              D5)
            • Justinos Tekton called Justin
              ... That s unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who earn that
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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                On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:15 +0000, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                > I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world,
                > there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice. Personally, I've been
                > prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the
                > behavior of that one woman...


                That's unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there
                are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who
                earn that title did so largely because of their enthusiasm for teaching
                others, and they give freely hundreds or even thousands of hours of
                their time to help others learn.

                I, too, have encountered "bad peers" of all three Orders (Laurel,
                Pelican, and Knight). But I have encountered a lot more good ones than
                bad.

                In my experience, the SCA is full of 98% wonderful people, and 2% jerks.
                With 30,000 members, that means there are 600 jerks. A few of them
                happen to have peerages or crowns. Ignore or avoid the 2%, and have fun
                with the other 98%. :-)

                Kind regards,

                Justin

                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                fesswise reversed sable.

                justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
              • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                ... Sir Diablu is a truly wonderful human being! I have known him for years. He was also married to a white woman, Dame Anna Herold von Ossenheim, who
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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                  On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:48 -0400, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                  > Duchess Isabella of York, not
                  > only a royal peer but also a Laurel (for Elizabethan costuming) is a
                  > black woman married to a white man. Sir Diablu, commonly referred to
                  > as "The Black Knight of the East".


                  Sir Diablu is a truly wonderful human being! I have known him for years.
                  He was also married to a white woman, Dame Anna Herold von Ossenheim,
                  who regrettably passed away a couple of years ago. She was a dear
                  friend, and a colleague in the Chirurgeonate.

                  Justin

                  --
                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                  Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                  fesswise reversed sable.

                  justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                  Alas, it was losing my little tykes to such vicious cruelty - I TRUSTED those people with something very precious to me, they were LIVING THINGS that should
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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                    Alas, it was losing my little 'tykes' to such vicious cruelty - I TRUSTED those people with something very precious to me, they were LIVING THINGS that should not have been so cruelly allowed to die of thirst and starvation...



                    That hurt way more than the behavior of that laurel...  (tho, her laurel buddies tended to use only a very few books to declare what THEY thought 'period' should be.  That was another 'turn-off'.)



                    I also adopted a stray cat - rescued it - at the urging of another SCA woman in this area - even tho I'd just rescued one from my own street and found a home for it - at my own expense.



                    When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.  It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the apartment complex rules???  Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap - and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!



                    Sorry.  Too much whining.  But that sort of behavior towards something helpless and innocent - just boggles my mind....



                    Oversharing??  Ziddina


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Justinos Tekton called Justin" <justin@...>
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:04:27 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?

                     




                    On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:15 +0000, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                    > I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world,
                    > there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice. Personally, I've been
                    > prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the
                    > behavior of that one woman...

                    That's unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there
                    are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who
                    earn that title did so largely because of their enthusiasm for teaching
                    others, and they give freely hundreds or even thousands of hours of
                    their time to help others learn.

                    I, too, have encountered "bad peers" of all three Orders (Laurel,
                    Pelican, and Knight). But I have encountered a lot more good ones than
                    bad.

                    In my experience, the SCA is full of 98% wonderful people, and 2% jerks.
                    With 30,000 members, that means there are 600 jerks. A few of them
                    happen to have peerages or crowns. Ignore or avoid the 2%, and have fun
                    with the other 98%. :-)

                    Kind regards,

                    Justin

                    --
                    ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                    Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                    Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                    fesswise reversed sable.

                    justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Shere'e
                    As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is considered
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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                      As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house
                      rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is
                      considered "keeping a pet without permission" and is a major lease
                      violation.

                      It may seem cruel but here is a very good reason for this. Folks will feed
                      strays which in turn attracts more strays and urban wildlife (skunks,
                      possums, rats, mice, ect). Next thing you know you have a huge problem with
                      them and all it takes is for one little kid to try petting the feral kitty,
                      get bit and mom sues the apartment for allowing feral animals to congrigate
                      on the property. In the meantime, Junior has to go in for a very painful set
                      of Rabies shots because he THINKS it was a tabby kitty, No wait, it was a
                      black kitty, no it was a white kitty. Maybe it was a skunk?

                      In case you think I am anti-animal I am not, we have 5 cats, all of which
                      are rescues. Nor is my complex. Animals are more than welcome. I think about
                      40% of my tenants have animals of some sort and our rules are set up to
                      encourage people to have a pet. We will even allow payments on the pet
                      deposit as low as $10 a month and do not charge a "pet rent" which some
                      places do.



                      I agree with Justin that just because someone has an award does not mean
                      that they are a perfect person. Look at the BOD meeting minutes. You will
                      see that some of the people who are banished have titles and awards. You are
                      dealing with PEOPLE and they are as good and as bad as any other group.

                      Lady Miranda

                      www.webeweddings.com
                      Unique Weddings for Unique Couples


                      (SNIPPING FOR LENGTH)

                      On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, <Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.
                      > It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me
                      > about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the
                      > apartment complex rules??? Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap -
                      > and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!
                      > Oversharing?? Ziddina
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                      Not to keep going on this subject, cause it is so painful and probably brings up painful memories for other people, but - the woman had a pet dog in her
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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                        Not to keep going on this subject, 'cause it is so painful and probably brings up painful memories for other people, but - the woman had a pet dog in her apartment and CLAIMED to like animals...



                        It was only later that she blurted out - in front of four other SCA'ers - that she'd been RAT FINKING on OTHERS who had pets - and pets were allowed, if one paid a small fee - within the apartment complex.  Her speech went something like, "Oh, there are all these stray cats around our apartment complex; 'course, I tell the management when someone has a pet and shouldn't have - oh, maybe I'm responsible for all those cats running around the apartment complex!"  She said it with the most disgusting "Oh, My? What have I done?" cutesy-pie expression in her voice...



                        I absolutely dropped her like a millstone [we had previously been 'friends'] at that instant.  Vicious, bizarre, and MENTal...



                        And now you know the rest of the story.  By the way, I assume that there are rescue organizations that you might be able to call - as well as the local Humane Society and in worse-case scenarios the local Animal Control people - to assist with the pet overpopulations situation???  If people would only have their animals spayed/neutered...  So sad.  Ziddina


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Shere'e" <shereerobinson@...>
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:53:59 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Cruel threesome allowing my hamsters to  starve/thirst to death

                         




                        As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house
                        rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is
                        considered "keeping a pet without permission" and is a major lease
                        violation.

                        It may seem cruel but here is a very good reason for this. Folks will feed
                        strays which in turn attracts more strays and urban wildlife (skunks,
                        possums, rats, mice, ect). Next thing you know you have a huge problem with
                        them and all it takes is for one little kid to try petting the feral kitty,
                        get bit and mom sues the apartment for allowing feral animals to congrigate
                        on the property. In the meantime, Junior has to go in for a very painful set
                        of Rabies shots because he THINKS it was a tabby kitty, No wait, it was a
                        black kitty, no it was a white kitty. Maybe it was a skunk?

                        In case you think I am anti-animal I am not, we have 5 cats, all of which
                        are rescues. Nor is my complex. Animals are more than welcome. I think about
                        40% of my tenants have animals of some sort and our rules are set up to
                        encourage people to have a pet. We will even allow payments on the pet
                        deposit as low as $10 a month and do not charge a "pet rent" which some
                        places do.

                        I agree with Justin that just because someone has an award does not mean
                        that they are a perfect person. Look at the BOD meeting minutes. You will
                        see that some of the people who are banished have titles and awards. You are
                        dealing with PEOPLE and they are as good and as bad as any other group.

                        Lady Miranda

                        www.webeweddings.com
                        Unique Weddings for Unique Couples

                        (SNIPPING FOR LENGTH)

                        On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, < Ziddinaaitzumar@... > wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.
                        > It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me
                        > about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the
                        > apartment complex rules??? Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap -
                        > and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!
                        > Oversharing?? Ziddina
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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