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Help! Help! How do various Kingdoms handle "Land" disputes???

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  • Sadira Aka Ziddina Ait Zumar
    How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one Barony s/Canton s/Shire s territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE - in another s??? This
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
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      How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one
      Barony's/Canton's/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE
      - in another's???

      This question is a bit above the average "Newcomer's" level. Let's call
      it an "Intermediate Member's" question. Maybe it will benefit the
      newcomers also, as they will get a foretaste of an issue that may affect
      them in their future in the SCA...

      I live in a Canton. That is, the U.S. Postal Service zip code area that
      I live in has been designated as part of a "Canton's" territory.

      Well and good. I like this Canton, I like the people, it's close to my
      house and everything was going well - UNTIL!!!

      Some OTHER people who live in this zip code who were playing with a
      TOTALLY different Barony - and holding positions as OFFICERS within that
      Barony - got caught. [The other Barony is AT LEAST 25 miles away, by
      the way!!!]

      So now these errant members of that Barony want to claim this zip code
      for that Barony. That Barony's territory hardly even reaches as far as
      the territory owned/claimed by my favorite little Canton. The meeting
      place of the Canton - and its official archery practice location - are
      both SO close to my house that I can BICYCLE to them!

      According to the SCA officers of this Canton, there are only two
      possible solutions:

      (1) The zip code goes to a Barony that is 25 miles away, and their
      "Populace Meetings", archery practice, and events are often much farther
      away...

      Or: (2) The people in this zip code who choose to burn their gas
      attending - and hopefully continuing to perform as officers in - the
      Barony 25 miles away... MUST MOVE... into a zip code that 'officially'
      belongs to that Barony.

      Frankly, NEITHER solution sounds workable to me. If the zip code is
      given to the distant Barony because of a few errant players, what's to
      stop said Barony from taking yet more territory away from our little
      Canton as others decide that they want to play with that Barony??? Our
      little Canton could disappear as a result of a 'hostile takeover', in
      effect.

      The THIRD solution - which I'd like to see implemented - would be to
      ALLOW said Canton members to OFFICIALLY become members of that Barony -
      as an EXCEPTION - within this zip code. And to make that an official
      policy, as follows:

      If said member residing within an SCA group
      [Barony/Canton/Shire/whatever] wishes to 'play' with a different group
      [Barony/Canton/Shire/whatever], they must:

      (a) Not be currently functioning as an
      officer/nobility/royalty/laurel/knight/whatever within the group they
      wish to exit/leave...

      (b) Obtain a letter of permission from the
      Baron/Baroness/leaders/Senechal/whatever of the group they wish to
      leave...

      (c) Obtain a letter of permission from the
      Baron/Baroness/leaders/Senechal/whatever of the group they wish to
      join...

      (d) This transference of group membership shall REMAIN VALID throughout
      and in spite of any changes in the Monarchy.

      I would not imply that this would allow a person to switch from one
      Kingdom to another; but that is also a rare possibility...

      Yeesh. This is the sort of 'politicking' and behind-the-scenes
      wrangling that makes participating in the SCA as much fun as getting my
      teeth pulled, at times...

      Thanks for any insight/information/assistance you can render regarding
      this situation! Ziddina ait Zumar



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Justinos Tekton called Justin
      ... The short answer is, it depends on your kingdom and on which office is involved. But there are some general principles that apply, and I ll make some notes
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
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        On Wed, 2009-07-15 at 18:15 +0000, Sadira Aka Ziddina Ait Zumar wrote:
        > How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one
        > Barony's/Canton's/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE
        > - in another's???


        The short answer is, it depends on your kingdom and on which office is
        involved. But there are some general principles that apply, and I'll
        make some notes below.


        > The THIRD solution - which I'd like to see implemented - would be to
        > ALLOW said Canton members to OFFICIALLY become members of that Barony -
        > as an EXCEPTION - within this zip code. And to make that an official
        > policy, as follows:


        In the Middle Kingdom, this exception typically can be done with written
        approval from the appropriate warranting officer at the Kingdom level.


        >
        > If said member residing within an SCA group
        > [Barony/Canton/Shire/whatever] wishes to 'play' with a different group
        > [Barony/Canton/Shire/whatever], they must:
        >
        > (a) Not be currently functioning as an
        > officer/nobility/royalty/laurel/knight/whatever within the group they
        > wish to exit/leave...


        The peerages (Knight/Master-At-Arms, Laurel, Pelican) are SCA-wide
        titles that are not related to the group where you play. They are titles
        rather than offices.


        > (d) This transference of group membership shall REMAIN VALID throughout
        > and in spite of any changes in the Monarchy.


        There is actually no such thing as membership in a local group or
        barony, according to SCA policy. One becomes a member of the SCA at the
        corporate level.

        One also has a kingdom of allegiance (not membership) depending on where
        one lives. It is uncommon, but not rare, for individuals who wish to
        play in kingdom A but live in kingdom B to ask the monarchs of both
        kingdoms to sign a treaty granting that.

        The difference here is that membership is a modern-world administrative
        function at the corporate level, whereas allegiance is an in-game
        function of the kingdom.

        Within the kingdom, your local group or baronial residence and/or
        affiliation is a matter of Kingdom policy, but Kingdom policy can't
        override corporate membership policy.


        > I would not imply that this would allow a person to switch from one
        > Kingdom to another; but that is also a rare possibility...
        >
        > Yeesh. This is the sort of 'politicking' and behind-the-scenes
        > wrangling that makes participating in the SCA as much fun as getting my
        > teeth pulled, at times...


        Now, let me offer some *opinions* (not official policy) based on my
        experience as a regional and local officer here in the Midrealm.

        First, it's unfortunate that the officers crossing the boundary did it
        under the table and had to "get caught." Chances are, at least here in
        the Midrealm, if they had asked permission up front it would have been
        granted freely. This situation happens quite often here in the Middle.
        When I was Regional Seneschal, our Kingdom Seneschal issued writs
        allowing Seneschal appointments to cross boundaries as long as there was
        a reasonable explanation as to why. For instance, we had someone who
        lived just a few yards (literally) across the boundary, but because of
        rural roads was much closer in drive-time to the group opposite from
        where they lived. The KSen wisely ruled that they could hold office in
        the group where they actually played. Typically -- and again, I'm just
        recalling personal experience...YMMV -- they are more likely to grant
        exceptions to the rules based on common sense and driving logistics, but
        not so much based on "I don't like THOSE people over THERE!"

        Second, some offices are more problematic in this regard than others,
        because some "offices" really aren't offices at all, just deputy
        offices. This varies from kingdom to kingdom, quite a lot. For example,
        here in the Midrealm, many local groups have a Quartermaster who is in
        charge of keeping track of the group's event gear. This isn't an actual
        warranted office, and in reality this person is a deputy to the
        Seneschal or the Exchequer, both of which *are* warranted offices. So
        there really aren't any rules about residency for Quartermasters because
        all they are is an informal, unofficial assistant to an officer,
        appointed at the local level. The actual warranted officer is still
        legally responsible for the Quartermaster's duties.

        Third, you can play anywhere you want. Your kingdom can make rules about
        where you may or may not hold office, but you are welcome to attend any
        SCA activity you want, in any locale you want, provided you follow the
        rules in Corpora and the laws of the applicable kingdom. So if you live
        in Texas but would like to charter a private jet to Ohio to attend
        meetings at my local group, you are entirely welcome. :-)

        The best advice I can give is to approach this matter with diplomacy and
        tact, and try to work within the system to get the needed exceptions
        granted at whatever level is required, without bloodshed. It's easier to
        change a custom than an offier policy, easier to change a policy than a
        law, easier to change a law than to change Corpora -- so start with the
        simple approach that involves working courteously within the existing
        structure rather than trying to change it.

        Others may have more to add...please feel free. :-)

        Justin

        --
        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
        Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
        fesswise reversed sable.

        justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
      • Shere'e
        We have quite a bit of that here in parts of An Tir because of how close our groups are together. If you wanted to you could easily go to one of about 10
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
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          We have quite a bit of that here in parts of An Tir because of how close our
          groups are together. If you wanted to you could easily go to one of about 10
          different groups (shire, stronghold, college, barony, ect) within a 1 hour
          drive from your home. It is not unusual for people to live in one area and
          play with another group. In many cases even hold offices.

          Our shire handles this by the simple decree that Wyewood (our shire) is a
          state of mind. If you want to hold office in our group you just need to be
          an active participant in the shire (as well as whatever office
          qualifications there are).

          When it comes to formal POLLING however (such as when we tried to go for
          Barony) then people who got to vote in the polling were people who lived
          within the zip codes for our shire. That came back to bite us as many people
          in our zip code play in other groups around us and so did not respond to the
          polling. Those who did not live in the zip codes could write in to the
          Kingdom and let their wishes be known but the formal polling was only of
          those who lived within our zip codes.

          Miranda
          Shire of Wyewood, An Tir

          www.webeweddings.com
          Unique Weddings for Unique Couples


          On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Sadira Aka Ziddina Ait Zumar <
          Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:

          >
          > How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one
          > Barony's/Canton's/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE
          > - in another's???
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Denise Keppel
          I guess because I live in Atlanta, I never saw the point of Your zipcode determines the area you can play in.   I ve seen situations where people would
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
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            I guess because I live in Atlanta, I never saw the point of "Your zipcode determines the area you can play in."  I've seen situations where people would commute 60 minutes one way to go to work and choose to play with both groups.  It makes sense to me that a person who likes X,Y, Z would like to go to a group that does X,Y,Z.  And as they play, they start to take leadership roles.

            We don't force kids on the playground to only play with the kids in their own classroom, do we?  We should force play only within zip codes.

            My advice is to check kingdom law as what is understood and what is can change... and in this case to make the game fun for all involved needs to.

            --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Sadira Aka Ziddina Ait Zumar <Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:

            From: Sadira Aka Ziddina Ait Zumar <Ziddinaaitzumar@...>
            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Help! Help! How do various Kingdoms handle "Land" disputes???
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 2:15 PM



















            How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one

            Barony's/Canton' s/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE

            - in another's???



            This question is a bit above the average "Newcomer's" level. Let's call

            it an "Intermediate Member's" question. Maybe it will benefit the

            newcomers also, as they will get a foretaste of an issue that may affect

            them in their future in the SCA...



            I live in a Canton. That is, the U.S. Postal Service zip code area that

            I live in has been designated as part of a "Canton's" territory.



            Well and good. I like this Canton, I like the people, it's close to my

            house and everything was going well - UNTIL!!!



            Some OTHER people who live in this zip code who were playing with a

            TOTALLY different Barony - and holding positions as OFFICERS within that

            Barony - got caught. [The other Barony is AT LEAST 25 miles away, by

            the way!!!]



            So now these errant members of that Barony want to claim this zip code

            for that Barony. That Barony's territory hardly even reaches as far as

            the territory owned/claimed by my favorite little Canton. The meeting

            place of the Canton - and its official archery practice location - are

            both SO close to my house that I can BICYCLE to them!



            According to the SCA officers of this Canton, there are only two

            possible solutions:



            (1) The zip code goes to a Barony that is 25 miles away, and their

            "Populace Meetings", archery practice, and events are often much farther

            away...



            Or: (2) The people in this zip code who choose to burn their gas

            attending - and hopefully continuing to perform as officers in - the

            Barony 25 miles away... MUST MOVE... into a zip code that 'officially'

            belongs to that Barony.



            Frankly, NEITHER solution sounds workable to me. If the zip code is

            given to the distant Barony because of a few errant players, what's to

            stop said Barony from taking yet more territory away from our little

            Canton as others decide that they want to play with that Barony??? Our

            little Canton could disappear as a result of a 'hostile takeover', in

            effect.



            The THIRD solution - which I'd like to see implemented - would be to

            ALLOW said Canton members to OFFICIALLY become members of that Barony -

            as an EXCEPTION - within this zip code. And to make that an official

            policy, as follows:



            If said member residing within an SCA group

            [Barony/Canton/ Shire/whatever] wishes to 'play' with a different group

            [Barony/Canton/ Shire/whatever] , they must:



            (a) Not be currently functioning as an

            officer/nobility/ royalty/laurel/ knight/whatever within the group they

            wish to exit/leave.. .



            (b) Obtain a letter of permission from the

            Baron/Baroness/ leaders/Senechal /whatever of the group they wish to

            leave...



            (c) Obtain a letter of permission from the

            Baron/Baroness/ leaders/Senechal /whatever of the group they wish to

            join...



            (d) This transference of group membership shall REMAIN VALID throughout

            and in spite of any changes in the Monarchy.



            I would not imply that this would allow a person to switch from one

            Kingdom to another; but that is also a rare possibility. ..



            Yeesh. This is the sort of 'politicking' and behind-the-scenes

            wrangling that makes participating in the SCA as much fun as getting my

            teeth pulled, at times...



            Thanks for any insight/information /assistance you can render regarding

            this situation! Ziddina ait Zumar



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
            Thanks, Lord (?) Justin!  I ve added your reply (minus names, of course; I d rather keep the respondents anonymous...) to the documentation I ve started on
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
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              Thanks, Lord (?) Justin!  I've added your reply (minus names, of course; I'd rather keep the respondents anonymous...) to the documentation I've started on this situation. 



              I am puzzled as to why the whole situation arose in the first place - as I mentioned about 'pulling teeth', I've been rather discouraged about 'playing' lately [several years...] and wasn't in the loop when this issue arose.  I have no clue as to why the 'errant' members didn't approach the Kingdom Senechal/Baronial Senechal/whomever in the first place; timidity or laziness, perhaps???  Fear of being turned down?



              Anyway, thanks for your response!  Much wisdom; I hope I can accurately and diplomatically convey these ideas and perhaps assist the members seeking transfer to successfully petition for their "official" transfers.



              Oddly enough, I've heard [rumor, again???] that the situation can change like the wind with each new Monarchy - in effect, their petition can be approved, then rescinded within six months by the next King/Queen.  I sure hope that's nothing but a rumor...


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Justinos Tekton called Justin" <justin@...>
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:38:32 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Help!  Help!  How do various Kingdoms handle "Land" disputes???








              Ziddina Ait Zumar wrote:
              > How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one
              > Barony's/Canton's/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE
              > - in another's???

              The short answer is, it depends on your kingdom and on which office is
              involved. But there are some general principles that apply, and I'll
              make some notes below.

              > The THIRD solution -- would be to
              > ALLOW said Canton members to OFFICIALLY become members of that Barony - > as an EXCEPTION - within this zip code....


              In the Middle Kingdom, this exception typically can be done with written
              approval from the appropriate warranting officer at the Kingdom level.

              > If said member residing within an SCA group
              > [Barony/Canton/Shire/whatever] wishes to 'play' with a different group
              > [Barony/Canton/Shire/whatever], they must:  (a) Not be currently functioning as an officer/nobility/royalty/laurel/knight/whatever within the group they wish to exit/leave...

              The peerages (Knight/Master-At-Arms, Laurel, Pelican) are SCA-wide titles that are not related to the group where you play. They are titles rather than offices.

              > (d) This transference of group membership shall REMAIN VALID throughout and in spite of any changes in the Monarchy.

              There is actually no such thing as membership in a local group or
              barony, according to SCA policy. One becomes a member of the SCA at the corporate level.

              One also has a kingdom of allegiance (not membership) depending on where one lives. It is uncommon, but not rare, for individuals who wish to play in kingdom A but live in kingdom B to ask the monarchs of both kingdoms to sign a treaty granting that.

              The difference here is that membership is a modern-world administrative function at the corporate level, whereas allegiance is an in-game function of the kingdom.

              Within the kingdom, your local group or baronial residence and/or affiliation is a matter of Kingdom policy, but Kingdom policy can't override corporate membership policy.

              > Yeesh. This is the sort of 'politicking' and behind-the-scenes
              > wrangling that makes participating in the SCA as much fun as getting my teeth pulled, at times...

              Now, let me offer some *opinions* (not official policy) based on my experience as a regional and local officer here in the Midrealm.

              First, it's unfortunate that the officers crossing the boundary did it
              under the table and had to "get caught." Chances are, at least here in the Midrealm, if they had asked permission up front it would have been granted freely. This situation happens quite often here in the Middle.  When I was Regional Seneschal, our Kingdom Seneschal issued writs allowing Seneschal appointments to cross boundaries as long as there was
              a reasonable explanation as to why. For instance, we had someone who lived just a few yards (literally) across the boundary, but because of rural roads was much closer in drive-time to the group opposite from where they lived. The KSen wisely ruled that they could hold office in the group where they actually played. Typically -- and again, I'm just recalling personal experience...YMMV -- they are more likely to grant exceptions to the rules based on common sense and driving logistics, but
              not so much based on "I don't like THOSE people over THERE!"

              Second, some offices are more problematic in this regard than others, because some "offices" really aren't offices at all, just deputy offices. This varies from kingdom to kingdom, quite a lot. For example, here in the Midrealm, many local groups have a Quartermaster who is in charge of keeping track of the group's event gear. This isn't an actual warranted office, and in reality this person is a deputy to the Seneschal or the Exchequer, both of which *are* warranted offices. So there really aren't any rules about residency for Quartermasters because all they are is an informal, unofficial assistant to an officer, appointed at the local level. The actual warranted officer is still legally responsible for the Quartermaster's duties.

              Third, you can play anywhere you want. Your kingdom can make rules about where you may or may not hold office, but you are welcome to attend any SCA activity you want, in any locale you want, provided you follow the rules in Corpora and the laws of the applicable kingdom. So if you live in Texas but would like to charter a private jet to Ohio to attend meetings at my local group, you are entirely welcome. :-)

              The best advice I can give is to approach this matter with diplomacy and tact, and try to work within the system to get the needed exceptions granted at whatever level is required, without bloodshed. It's easier to change a custom than an offier policy, easier to change a policy than a law, easier to change a law than to change Corpora -- so start with the simple approach that  involves working courteously within the existing structure rather than trying to change it.

              Others may have more to add...please feel free. :-)

              Justin

              --
              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
              Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
              fesswise reversed sable.

              justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
              Thank you, Lady (?) Shere e!  I really appreciate your input.  I ll bring these points out in the next meeting on the subject [your contribution will be
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
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                Thank you, Lady (?) Shere'e!  I really appreciate your input.  I'll bring these points out in the next meeting on the subject [your contribution will be anonymous, just in case...] and hopefully - as Lord Justin said - this can be ended easily and amicably.  Ziddina
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Shere'e" <shereerobinson@...>
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:47:53 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Help! Help! How do various Kingdoms handle "Land"  disputes???








                We have quite a bit of that here in parts of An Tir because of how close our
                groups are together. If you wanted to you could easily go to one of about 10
                different groups (shire, stronghold, college, barony, ect) within a 1 hour
                drive from your home. It is not unusual for people to live in one area and
                play with another group. In many cases even hold offices.

                Our shire handles this by the simple decree that Wyewood (our shire) is a
                state of mind. If you want to hold office in our group you just need to be
                an active participant in the shire (as well as whatever office
                qualifications there are).

                When it comes to formal POLLING however (such as when we tried to go for
                Barony) then people who got to vote in the polling were people who lived
                within the zip codes for our shire. That came back to bite us as many people
                in our zip code play in other groups around us and so did not respond to the
                polling. Those who did not live in the zip codes could write in to the
                Kingdom and let their wishes be known but the formal polling was only of
                those who lived within our zip codes.

                Miranda
                Shire of Wyewood, An Tir

                www.webeweddings.com
                Unique Weddings for Unique Couples

                On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Sadira Aka Ziddina Ait Zumar <
                Ziddinaaitzumar@... > wrote:

                >
                > How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one
                > Barony's/Canton's/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE
                > - in another's???
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                Thanks, (?) Lady Keppel (??)!!  I appreciate your input; I especially liked your illustration of the children in the playground - what child playing freely
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
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                  Thanks, (?) Lady Keppel (??)!!  I appreciate your input; I especially liked your illustration of the children in the playground - what child playing freely and having fun would enjoy being told that they are limited in their choices of playmates - much less so for adults!!



                  As with the other two replies, I've added your excellent reply to my info - anonymously, of course.  Thanks again!  Ziddina


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Denise Keppel" <dkeppel@...>
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:07:19 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Help!  Help!  How do various Kingdoms handle "Land" disputes???






                  I guess because I live in Atlanta, I never saw the point of "Your zipcode determines the area you can play in."  I've seen situations where people would commute 60 minutes one way to go to work and choose to play with both groups.  It makes sense to me that a person who likes X,Y, Z would like to go to a group that does X,Y,Z.  And as they play, they start to take leadership roles.

                  We don't force kids on the playground to only play with the kids in their own classroom, do we?  We should[n't] force [people to] play only within zip codes [either]...

                  My advice is to check kingdom law as what is understood and what is can change... and in this case to make the game fun for all involved needs to.

                  --- Ziddina Ait Zumar wrote:

                  Help! Help! How do various Kingdoms handle "Land" disputes???


                  How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one Barony's/Canton' s/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE in another's???...

                  ..Yeesh. This is the sort of 'politicking' and behind-the-scenes

                  wrangling that makes participating in the SCA as much fun as getting my teeth pulled, at times...

                  Thanks for any insight/information /assistance you can render regarding this situation!   Ziddina ait Zumar



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                • svanarose
                  Okay, i have to pipe in here. And i will try and be as........polite as possible so as not to sound like a ranting fool. But reading these posts has the hair
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
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                    Okay, i have to pipe in here. And i will try and be as........polite as possible so as not to sound like a ranting fool. But reading these posts has the hair on the back of my neck standing up.

                    I still consider myself a newcomer though im in my second year of being an SCA member. But the one thing i do know and i know because i made contact with SCA headquarters on this issue, you dont have to play within your zipcode.

                    When i first took an interest in the SCA and this medevial activity, i tried to connect with the local group where i lived. They sponsored a Ren Faire every year. It was a house, that was desperately trying to become a shire. This group was cliquish. They were picky on who they allowed to play with them. I wasnt the only one that was snubbed. Ive run into many. Those that did make it in, left due to the behavior of this particular group.

                    So when i connected with people the next county over, i got told that i better use that counties zipcode because the SCA wouldnt let me be part of that group. That according to my zipcode, i was required to be part of the local group in my area. In my mind, how absolutely ridiculous. To take my money as a member and TELL ME where i CAN and CANNOT go.

                    I made contact as i said with headquarters. The answer i recieved officially is..........the zip code is only used to determine census of the populace. Members can participate with whatever group they wish to participate with. They can be official members of whatever shire they choose regardless of zipcode.

                    The group im with now, we have people within 3 different counties working to make a new shire develop. If my local group is gonna gripe about members in their area being part of another area's group, then maybe they should quit shutting so many people out who could be of benefit to them.

                    The point is.........the SCA doesnt force you to stay within your zipcode.



                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Sadira Aka Ziddina Ait Zumar" <Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one
                    > Barony's/Canton's/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE
                    > - in another's???
                    >
                    > This question is a bit above the average "Newcomer's" level. Let's call
                    > it an "Intermediate Member's" question. Maybe it will benefit the
                    > newcomers also, as they will get a foretaste of an issue that may affect
                    > them in their future in the SCA...
                    >
                    > I live in a Canton. That is, the U.S. Postal Service zip code area that
                    > I live in has been designated as part of a "Canton's" territory.
                    >
                    > Well and good. I like this Canton, I like the people, it's close to my
                    > house and everything was going well - UNTIL!!!
                    >
                    > Some OTHER people who live in this zip code who were playing with a
                    > TOTALLY different Barony - and holding positions as OFFICERS within that
                    > Barony - got caught. [The other Barony is AT LEAST 25 miles away, by
                    > the way!!!]
                    >
                    > So now these errant members of that Barony want to claim this zip code
                    > for that Barony. That Barony's territory hardly even reaches as far as
                    > the territory owned/claimed by my favorite little Canton. The meeting
                    > place of the Canton - and its official archery practice location - are
                    > both SO close to my house that I can BICYCLE to them!
                    >
                    > According to the SCA officers of this Canton, there are only two
                    > possible solutions:
                    >
                    > (1) The zip code goes to a Barony that is 25 miles away, and their
                    > "Populace Meetings", archery practice, and events are often much farther
                    > away...
                    >
                    > Or: (2) The people in this zip code who choose to burn their gas
                    > attending - and hopefully continuing to perform as officers in - the
                    > Barony 25 miles away... MUST MOVE... into a zip code that 'officially'
                    > belongs to that Barony.
                    >
                    > Frankly, NEITHER solution sounds workable to me. If the zip code is
                    > given to the distant Barony because of a few errant players, what's to
                    > stop said Barony from taking yet more territory away from our little
                    > Canton as others decide that they want to play with that Barony??? Our
                    > little Canton could disappear as a result of a 'hostile takeover', in
                    > effect.
                    >
                    > The THIRD solution - which I'd like to see implemented - would be to
                    > ALLOW said Canton members to OFFICIALLY become members of that Barony -
                    > as an EXCEPTION - within this zip code. And to make that an official
                    > policy, as follows:
                    >
                    > If said member residing within an SCA group
                    > [Barony/Canton/Shire/whatever] wishes to 'play' with a different group
                    > [Barony/Canton/Shire/whatever], they must:
                    >
                    > (a) Not be currently functioning as an
                    > officer/nobility/royalty/laurel/knight/whatever within the group they
                    > wish to exit/leave...
                    >
                    > (b) Obtain a letter of permission from the
                    > Baron/Baroness/leaders/Senechal/whatever of the group they wish to
                    > leave...
                    >
                    > (c) Obtain a letter of permission from the
                    > Baron/Baroness/leaders/Senechal/whatever of the group they wish to
                    > join...
                    >
                    > (d) This transference of group membership shall REMAIN VALID throughout
                    > and in spite of any changes in the Monarchy.
                    >
                    > I would not imply that this would allow a person to switch from one
                    > Kingdom to another; but that is also a rare possibility...
                    >
                    > Yeesh. This is the sort of 'politicking' and behind-the-scenes
                    > wrangling that makes participating in the SCA as much fun as getting my
                    > teeth pulled, at times...
                    >
                    > Thanks for any insight/information/assistance you can render regarding
                    > this situation! Ziddina ait Zumar
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                    Way cool!  Thanks for that information!  Would you consider passing on the name of the person you contacted - or SCA Corpora bylaw - or whatever SCA
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 15, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Way cool!  Thanks for that information!  Would you consider passing on the name of the person you contacted - or SCA Corpora bylaw - or whatever SCA Corporate referenced - so I can pass it on to those who wish to play with - and be officers in - a different Barony than that [Canton] which they are located in??



                      By the way, you controlled yourself quite well.  It sounds like you had a beast of a time with that initial group - sounds like some of the [mis]adventures I've had with various members, myself...



                      Some of the stories I could tell would curl your hair - a Laurel trying to snatch my hat off my head at a 12th Night celebration without so much as a 'by your leave' because she wanted to get a closer look at it...  And then the others in the Barony [same Barony that's trying to obtain this zip code as their territory] tried to convince me that it was a COMPLIMENT that she behaved so boorishly towards me!!



                      A 'knight', his 'lady', and their son who I PAID to take care of my little hamsters for two weeks while I was on vacation - supplied them with EVERYTHING they needed to properly take care of my little tykes...

                      Only to return to find that NO-ONE in that monstrous threesome had bothered to FEED OR WATER MY BABIES FOR TWO SOLID WEEKS!!!  [Two of the three died horrible, lingering deaths as a direct result!!]



                      And then, to have one of their idiot buddies within the Barony cluck at me in self-righteous loyalty as to what great friends she was with them - without even hearing my side of the story!!  I hope she leaves her beloved little dogs with them for two weeks, if she thinks they're so blasted trustworthy...



                      Like I said before, Yeeeesh!  I am so TOTALLY inactive right now, although still a paying member, as a result of this sort of viciousness, stupidity, and sheer brain-dead nastiness!!  Don't know whether I'll ever get over it...



                      Thanks for listening.  Ziddina


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "svanarose" <svanarose@...>
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:24:24 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Help!  Help!  How do various Kingdoms handle "Land" disputes???

                       




                      Okay, i have to pipe in here. And i will try and be as........polite as possible so as not to sound like a ranting fool. But reading these posts has the hair on the back of my neck standing up.

                      I still consider myself a newcomer though im in my second year of being an SCA member. But the one thing i do know and i know because i made contact with SCA headquarters on this issue, you dont have to play within your zipcode.

                      When i first took an interest in the SCA and this medevial activity, i tried to connect with the local group where i lived. They sponsored a Ren Faire every year. It was a house, that was desperately trying to become a shire. This group was cliquish. They were picky on who they allowed to play with them. I wasnt the only one that was snubbed. Ive run into many. Those that did make it in, left due to the behavior of this particular group.

                      So when i connected with people the next county over, i got told that i better use that counties zipcode because the SCA wouldnt let me be part of that group. That according to my zipcode, i was required to be part of the local group in my area. In my mind, how absolutely ridiculous. To take my money as a member and TELL ME where i CAN and CANNOT go.

                      I made contact as i said with headquarters. The answer i recieved officially is..........the zip code is only used to determine census of the populace. Members can participate with whatever group they wish to participate with. They can be official members of whatever shire they choose regardless of zipcode.

                      The group im with now, we have people within 3 different counties working to make a new shire develop. If my local group is gonna gripe about members in their area being part of another area's group, then maybe they should quit shutting so many people out who could be of benefit to them.

                      The point is.........the SCA doesnt force you to stay within your zipcode.

                      ---  Ziddina Ait Zumar" wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > How do the various Kingdoms handle it when someone lives in one Barony's/Canton's/Shire's territory but wants to play - and HOLD OFFICE - in another's???
                      >
                      > > I live in a Canton. That is, the U.S. Postal Service zip code area that  I live in has been designated as part of a "Canton's" territory.
                      >
                      > Well and good. I like this Canton, I like the people, it's close to my house and everything was going well - UNTIL!!!
                      >
                      > Some OTHER people who live in this zip code who were playing with a TOTALLY different Barony - and holding positions as OFFICERS within that Barony - got caught. [The other Barony is AT LEAST 25 miles away, by the way!!!]
                      >
                      > So now these errant members of that Barony want to claim this zip code for that Barony. That Barony's territory hardly even reaches as far as the territory owned/claimed by my favorite little Canton. The meeting place of the Canton - and its official archery practice location - are both SO close to my house that I can BICYCLE to them!
                      >
                      > According to the SCA officers of this Canton, there are only two possible solutions:
                      >
                      > (1) The zip code goes to a Barony that is 25 miles away, and their "Populace Meetings", archery practice, and events are often much farther away...
                      >
                      > Or: (2) The people in this zip code who choose to burn their gas attending - and hopefully continuing to perform as officers in - the Barony 25 miles away... MUST MOVE... into a zip code that 'officially' belongs to that Barony.
                      >
                      > Frankly, NEITHER solution sounds workable to me. If the zip code is given to the distant Barony because of a few errant players, what's to stop said Barony from taking yet more territory away from our little Canton as others decide that they want to play with that Barony??? Our little Canton could disappear as a result of a 'hostile takeover', in effect.
                      >
                      > The THIRD solution - which I'd like to see implemented - would be to ALLOW said Canton members to OFFICIALLY become members of that Barony - as an EXCEPTION - within this zip code....
                      >
                      > Yeesh. This is the sort of 'politicking' and behind-the-scenes
                      > wrangling that makes participating in the SCA as much fun as getting my teeth pulled, at times...
                      >
                      > Thanks for any insight/information/assistance you can render regarding this situation! Ziddina ait Zumar
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                      ... A good and fair question for all of us giving advice on this matter. Here are the relevant citations from Corpora for the advice I gave ...
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 16, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 06:58 +0000, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                        > Way cool! Thanks for that information! Would you consider passing on
                        > the name of the person you contacted - or SCA Corpora bylaw - or
                        > whatever SCA Corporate referenced - so I can pass it on to those who
                        > wish to play with - and be officers in - a different Barony than that
                        > [Canton] which they are located in??


                        A good and fair question for all of us giving advice on this matter.
                        Here are the relevant citations from Corpora for the advice I gave
                        earlier:


                        >From the SCA Governing Documents, a PDF file located at:
                        http://www.sca.org/docs/pdf/govdocs.pdf

                        II.B. Requirements for Participants at Society events

                        Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at
                        pre-17th century clothing, conforms to the provisions in Corpora, and
                        complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or waivers)
                        which may be imposed. At business meetings and informal classes, the
                        requirement to wear pre-17th century dress may be waived. All
                        participants are expected to behave as ladies or gentlemen.


                        and from the SCA Bylaws (an appendix to the same PDF document):

                        V.2.a. Eligibility for Office.

                        Officers at all levels of the SCA must be members and must have
                        immediate access to the corporate newsletter for their area provided by
                        a subscribing membership at their residence. (Alternate access
                        arrangements may be made on a case-by-case basis for people with post
                        office boxes and for International Members.) This standard also applies
                        to deputies designated as successors to officers subject to this
                        provision, or assigned independent administrative duties. Deputies who
                        only assist with specific tasks are exempt from the newsletter access
                        requirement.


                        Do bear in mind that your Kingdom may have Kingdom Laws that impose
                        stricter requirements. You should research that as well before pursuing
                        this further. :-)

                        Kind regards,

                        Justin

                        --
                        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                        Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                        fesswise reversed sable.

                        justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                      • svanarose
                        Thank you Justin. I like very much what you put out to SCA newcomers. Besides my own experiences which nearly pushed me away from the SCA a few times, I have
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 16, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thank you Justin. I like very much what you put out to SCA newcomers. Besides my own experiences which nearly pushed me away from the SCA a few times, I have run into many who have had bad info given them. So my goal as a newcomer is to help other newcomers gain correct info so that they may enjoy the SCA and not run. There are individuals and groups imposing their ideas, desires, wants and control. Fortunately i have come to know others that have helped dispell false info and guide me to seek further knowledge.

                          AND IM LOVING IT. Im enjoying events, kingdom and SCA. Loving my garb, loving feasts, loving the camping and loving the friends i make across the country. Dont give up if this is something you know in your heart you want in your life.

                          I believe i posted this here once before, but my first and foremost advice to all newcomers is.......if you are being stressed by others that "you have to" , "you must" , or "you cant" ,...take the time to research and make contact with SCA headquarters. From there, your specific kingdom.



                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Justinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 06:58 +0000, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                          > > Way cool! Thanks for that information! Would you consider passing on
                          > > the name of the person you contacted - or SCA Corpora bylaw - or
                          > > whatever SCA Corporate referenced - so I can pass it on to those who
                          > > wish to play with - and be officers in - a different Barony than that
                          > > [Canton] which they are located in??
                          >
                          >
                          > A good and fair question for all of us giving advice on this matter.
                          > Here are the relevant citations from Corpora for the advice I gave
                          > earlier:
                          >
                          >
                          > >From the SCA Governing Documents, a PDF file located at:
                          > http://www.sca.org/docs/pdf/govdocs.pdf
                          >
                          > II.B. Requirements for Participants at Society events
                          >
                          > Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at
                          > pre-17th century clothing, conforms to the provisions in Corpora, and
                          > complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or waivers)
                          > which may be imposed. At business meetings and informal classes, the
                          > requirement to wear pre-17th century dress may be waived. All
                          > participants are expected to behave as ladies or gentlemen.
                          >
                          >
                          > and from the SCA Bylaws (an appendix to the same PDF document):
                          >
                          > V.2.a. Eligibility for Office.
                          >
                          > Officers at all levels of the SCA must be members and must have
                          > immediate access to the corporate newsletter for their area provided by
                          > a subscribing membership at their residence. (Alternate access
                          > arrangements may be made on a case-by-case basis for people with post
                          > office boxes and for International Members.) This standard also applies
                          > to deputies designated as successors to officers subject to this
                          > provision, or assigned independent administrative duties. Deputies who
                          > only assist with specific tasks are exempt from the newsletter access
                          > requirement.
                          >
                          >
                          > Do bear in mind that your Kingdom may have Kingdom Laws that impose
                          > stricter requirements. You should research that as well before pursuing
                          > this further. :-)
                          >
                          > Kind regards,
                          >
                          > Justin
                          >
                          > --
                          > ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                          > Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                          > Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                          > fesswise reversed sable.
                          >
                          > justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                          >
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