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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?

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  • Judith Epstein
    Thanks, Ron! Will it turn me brown, though, or orange? I ve heard of canthaxanthin before but not tried it myself. I really want to avoid an orangey color if
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
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      Thanks, Ron! Will it turn me brown, though, or orange? I've heard of
      canthaxanthin before but not tried it myself. I really want to avoid
      an orangey color if possible.

      On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Ron Osceola wrote:

      > Canthaxanthin is sold in several health food places I've been as a
      > tanning
      > agent for bodybuilders. Canthaxanthin is stored in bodyfat. Your
      > palms/soles
      > of your feet will be the first places to show signs of canthaxanthin
      > and
      > will also show it strongest. It is always a good idea to load
      > canthaxanthin
      > (3-6 tabs a day taken with meals) and as soon as your hands turn
      > orange/red
      > cut the dose to 1-2 tabs a day (taken in the morning). If after a
      > month you
      > notice your color fading and if you want to darken up more you can
      > reload.
      >
      > Another thing I have heard (but not tried personally) is iodine
      > mixed with
      > baby oil and rubbed onto the skin. Obviously you would have some
      > control of
      > the color by how much iodine you put into the baby oil.
      >
      > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Judith Epstein <judith@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
      > > okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
      > > skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
      > > the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
      > > redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and
      > I'm
      > > going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black
      > like
      > > a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
      > > the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
      > > been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
      > > success, and why it doesn't work for me:
      > >
      > > 1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.
      > >
      > > 2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
      > > wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.
      > >
      > > 3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
      > > it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
      > > there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.
      > >
      > > 4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an
      > injection
      > > of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
      > > by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
      > > which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin
      > cancer,
      > > which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and
      > it's
      > > expensive.
      > >
      > > 5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin
      > orange
      > > like henna.
      > >
      > > 6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
      > > far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.
      > >
      > > Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily
      > over a
      > > period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the
      > duration of
      > > a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
      > > washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
      > > Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).
      > >
      > > -- Judith / Divash
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Love and Blessings,
      > Ron Osceola, CHT
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bearintuitions
      > 804.385.0485
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tonya
      You might want to try Jan Tana tanning products. Its what bodybuilders use to get a deep dark tan for competions. I ve heard it stains the skin and takes days
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
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        You might want to try Jan Tana tanning products. Its what bodybuilders use to get a deep dark tan for competions. I've heard it stains the skin and takes days to come off completely but will bleed off some on clothes but might work to get u through a weekend event. There website is www.jantana.com

        Maerwynn
        Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Judith Epstein <judith@...>

        Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:52:10
        To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>; <sca-middle@...>; <SCA-Tree-Girt-Sea@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?


        I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
        okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
        skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
        the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
        redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and I'm
        going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black like
        a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
        the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
        been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
        success, and why it doesn't work for me:

        1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.

        2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
        wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.

        3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
        it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
        there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.

        4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an injection
        of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
        by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
        which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin cancer,
        which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and it's
        expensive.

        5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin orange
        like henna.

        6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
        far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.

        Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily over a
        period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the duration of
        a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
        washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
        Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).

        -- Judith / Divash




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ron Osceola
        I am Seminole Native American ..so kinda tending to the dark anyway, it turns me a really dark brown for about 4 days. Unfortunately, you will burn like heck
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
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          I am Seminole Native American ..so kinda tending to the dark anyway, it
          turns me a really dark brown for about 4 days. Unfortunately, you will burn
          like heck when you stay outside (no sun protection at all.)

          What is your persona, do you want to be brown on exposed surfaces or pretty
          much all over?

          On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Judith Epstein <judith@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > Thanks, Ron! Will it turn me brown, though, or orange? I've heard of
          > canthaxanthin before but not tried it myself. I really want to avoid
          > an orangey color if possible.
          >
          >
          > On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Ron Osceola wrote:
          >
          > > Canthaxanthin is sold in several health food places I've been as a
          > > tanning
          > > agent for bodybuilders. Canthaxanthin is stored in bodyfat. Your
          > > palms/soles
          > > of your feet will be the first places to show signs of canthaxanthin
          > > and
          > > will also show it strongest. It is always a good idea to load
          > > canthaxanthin
          > > (3-6 tabs a day taken with meals) and as soon as your hands turn
          > > orange/red
          > > cut the dose to 1-2 tabs a day (taken in the morning). If after a
          > > month you
          > > notice your color fading and if you want to darken up more you can
          > > reload.
          > >
          > > Another thing I have heard (but not tried personally) is iodine
          > > mixed with
          > > baby oil and rubbed onto the skin. Obviously you would have some
          > > control of
          > > the color by how much iodine you put into the baby oil.
          > >
          > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Judith Epstein <judith@...<judith%40ipstenu.org>>
          >
          > > wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
          > > > okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
          > > > skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
          > > > the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
          > > > redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and
          > > I'm
          > > > going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black
          > > like
          > > > a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
          > > > the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
          > > > been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
          > > > success, and why it doesn't work for me:
          > > >
          > > > 1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.
          > > >
          > > > 2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
          > > > wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.
          > > >
          > > > 3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
          > > > it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
          > > > there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.
          > > >
          > > > 4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an
          > > injection
          > > > of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
          > > > by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
          > > > which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin
          > > cancer,
          > > > which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and
          > > it's
          > > > expensive.
          > > >
          > > > 5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin
          > > orange
          > > > like henna.
          > > >
          > > > 6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
          > > > far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.
          > > >
          > > > Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily
          > > over a
          > > > period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the
          > > duration of
          > > > a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
          > > > washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
          > > > Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).
          > > >
          > > > -- Judith / Divash
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > --
          > > Love and Blessings,
          > > Ron Osceola, CHT
          > >
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bearintuitions
          > > 804.385.0485
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          --
          Love and Blessings,
          Ron Osceola, CHT

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bearintuitions
          804.385.0485


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Judith Epstein
          I haven t worked out the fine details of my persona yet, but I know that I want her to be a Jew from either North Africa (Morocco to Yemen, somewhere in that
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
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            I haven't worked out the fine details of my persona yet, but I know
            that I want her to be a Jew from either North Africa (Morocco to
            Yemen, somewhere in that area), or the Holy Land. I don't need full-
            body browning, just the exposed surface skin. I won't have all that
            many exposed surfaces, but the ones that will be exposed (face, hands,
            feet, and possibly some of the lower leg if it's windy out) are the
            hardest to cover with dye, due to normal sweating, washing, and
            exposure to abrasion. Since I'm so pasty and pale, any orange tone
            will show up very much on me.

            On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Ron Osceola wrote:

            > I am Seminole Native American ..so kinda tending to the dark anyway,
            > it
            > turns me a really dark brown for about 4 days. Unfortunately, you
            > will burn
            > like heck when you stay outside (no sun protection at all.)
            >
            > What is your persona, do you want to be brown on exposed surfaces or
            > pretty
            > much all over?


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lovedaia
            You didn t mention spray-tan in your options. Call around tanning salons in your area and find a good place that does spray tans. You can take a few
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
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              You didn't mention spray-tan in your options. Call around tanning
              salons in your area and find a good place that does spray tans. You can
              take a few applications to reach as dark as you want, and it will hold
              most of it's color for 4-5 days. It's done with a spray gun by a
              professional.

              It's what they use on shows like Dancing With The Stars...so everyone
              looks dark and sexy, and it doesn't rub or sweat off ... but it's a more
              natural color than self tanners. I'm fair too....self tanners make me
              orange, all of them, even the expensive Estee Lauder type things.

              Want to just try it out? I bet a couple of place would do a test patch
              for you in a hidden place so you can watch it for a few hours and see
              how the color develops.

              Lovedaia of Calontir



              Judith Epstein wrote:
              >
              >
              > I haven't worked out the fine details of my persona yet, but I know
              > that I want her to be a Jew from either North Africa (Morocco to
              > Yemen, somewhere in that area), or the Holy Land. I don't need full-
              > body browning, just the exposed surface skin. I won't have all that
              > many exposed surfaces, but the ones that will be exposed (face, hands,
              > feet, and possibly some of the lower leg if it's windy out) are the
              > hardest to cover with dye, due to normal sweating, washing, and
              > exposure to abrasion. Since I'm so pasty and pale, any orange tone
              > will show up very much on me.
              >
              > On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Ron Osceola wrote:
              >
              > > I am Seminole Native American ..so kinda tending to the dark anyway,
              > > it
              > > turns me a really dark brown for about 4 days. Unfortunately, you
              > > will burn
              > > like heck when you stay outside (no sun protection at all.)
              > >
              > > What is your persona, do you want to be brown on exposed surfaces or
              > > pretty
              > > much all over?
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Marlene Ladouceur
              Dia duit! The aunt of my husband wanted, for an Halloween party, to be an African person and took a black ink bath... Oh, it works good but 3 things about it:
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 10, 2009
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                Dia duit!

                The aunt of my husband wanted, for an Halloween party, to be an African person and took a black ink bath... Oh, it works good but 3 things about it:

                1. your white bath is black for a month and more ;0)

                2. Your skin is very black (not brown black like those persons) for few weeks and also don`t looks natural.

                3 DON`T DO THIS BECAUSE IT IS VERY DANGEROUS TO POISONOUS YOURSELF! Ink is poison ;0) The aunt in question did`nt poisoned herself, but a friend of mine who is doctor, told me that this is potentiencialy dangerous...



                A suggestion: you could just dress yourself and act like those people without being black skinned. Say that you where adopted by them...or something like that ;0)


                Lady Éadaoin Uì Brien

                Shire La Selve d`Aure







                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com; sca-middle@...; SCA-Tree-Girt-Sea@yahoogroups.com
                From: judith@...
                Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:52:10 -0500
                Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?







                I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
                okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
                skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
                the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
                redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and I'm
                going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black like
                a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
                the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
                been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
                success, and why it doesn't work for me:

                1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.

                2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
                wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.

                3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
                it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
                there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.

                4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an injection
                of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
                by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
                which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin cancer,
                which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and it's
                expensive.

                5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin orange
                like henna.

                6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
                far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.

                Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily over a
                period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the duration of
                a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
                washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
                Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).

                -- Judith / Divash









                _________________________________________________________________
                Avec Windows Live, vous gardez le contact avec tous vos amis au même endroit.
                http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660830

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sara L Uckelman
                ... *laugh* Having recently spilled about half a bottle of sepia ink, I can confirm that sepia will dye your skin a lovely dark brown which will last through
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 10, 2009
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                  Quoth Marlene Ladouceur:
                  > The aunt of my husband wanted, for an Halloween party, to be an African per=
                  > son and took a black ink bath... Oh, it works good but 3 things about it:=20

                  *laugh* Having recently spilled about half a bottle of sepia
                  ink, I can confirm that sepia will dye your skin a lovely dark
                  brown which will last through at least a couple of washings
                  with soap.

                  -Aryanhwy




                  --
                  vita sine literis mors est
                  http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                • Callahan Patrick
                  To Whom It May Concern: I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 15, 2009
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                    To Whom It May Concern:

                    I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to primarily appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I understand that this could be interpreted as a natural out growth of The Society For Professional Anachronism's mission to study and learn about certain aspects of European History, however if it would be possible I would be very interested in knowing to what extent if any other races participate in your games of skill and more generally in the context of your events. Do you believe that people of these other races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome in your groups? Does anyone have information on this?

                    PMC_,___
                  • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                    Hmm.  I ve wondered about that, myself.  Speaking from personal experience here, in the western U.S., people of color seem to generally be accepted as part
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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                      Hmm.  I've wondered about that, myself.  Speaking from personal experience here, in the western U.S., people of 'color' seem to generally be accepted as part of the group.



                      In fact, that Laurel who I've complained about (her extremely boorish behavior towards people's garb, she tended to run up to people and begin snatching at their clothes/hats/hairpieces without so much as a "by-your-leave"), is a person 'of color'...  She was VERY WELL established within her Barony; so much so that everyone else ['white'] feared to bring the unpleasant aspects of her behavior to her attention...



                      Which I DID do, because I can't stand rude, stupid behavior no matter WHAT color the person is.  As one of Herman Melville's characters said in "Moby Dick", "I'd strike the sun if it insulted me!"  In other words, I speak my mind forcefully and directly, often with little to no regard for a person's 'status' within the SCA - or corporate America, for that matter.



                      My behavior towards her started [rumors abound in the SCA] a rumor that I was 'prejudiced' against her because of her 'color'.  Hmmm.  Little did any of the SCA members know that I'd dated a black man when in my early twenties, and had actually proposed marriage TO HIM.  Luckily for him, he turned me down.  (I'm a redhead - sort of - with a fiery temper.  Pray for my current husband...)



                      I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world, there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice.  Personally, I've been prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the behavior of that one woman...



                      Dunno if that helped answer your question...  Actually, I've got olive skin [pale], dark eyes, and ash-brown hair that turns reddish in the sun.  I'm what is called "Black" Irish - I've got Spanish blood from somewhere back in time (probably the time of the Spanish Armada...) and through the Spanish blood, may even have some Berber/Moorish blood in me...



                      Which, interestingly enough, turned out to be the persona I chose for playing in the SCA...



                      Ziddina ait Zumar - name registered, slightly pre-period Berber [Imazighen] name from the area of North Africa in the time [roughly] of Imperial Rome.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Callahan Patrick" <callahanpatrick@...>
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:33:07 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?

                       





                      To Whom It May Concern:

                      I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to primarily appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I understand that this could be interpreted as a natural out growth of The Society For Professional Anachronism's mission to study and learn about certain aspects of European History, however if it would be possible I would be very interested in knowing to what extent if any other races participate in your games of skill and more generally in the context of your events. Do you believe that people of these other races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome in your groups? Does anyone have information on this?

                      PMC_,___













                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Coblaith Muimnech
                      ... I m going to assume you meant The Society for Creative Anachronism , since that s the organization with this Yahoo! Group is associated. I wouldn t
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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                        PMC wrote:
                        > I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at
                        > least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to
                        > primarily appeal to people of the white or paler
                        > complexion.. . .Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome
                        > in your groups?

                        I'm going to assume you meant "The Society for Creative Anachronism",
                        since that's the organization with this Yahoo! Group is associated.

                        I wouldn't hesitate to take a friend of any phenotype to an S.C.A.
                        event or meeting. I'm sure there are bigoted apples in the barrel
                        and that the degree to which color is an issue varies from branch to
                        branch in the Society as it does from town to town within the rest of
                        the U.S. population, but I think it likely that the S.C.A., as a
                        whole, is a little more "colorblind" than American society, as a
                        whole. Generally speaking, we tend to attract more folks who stand
                        closer to the live-and-let-live end of the spectrum than to the
                        different-from-me-is-wrong end.

                        My barony is based in Austin, Texas. We have only a handful of
                        members who aren't white (based on their appearance--I haven't done
                        any polls to determine self-perceived identities), but most of the
                        people who come looking for us or who happen across one of our
                        meetings are also white. I think the proportions are probably about
                        the same. I know that our officers, guild leaders, and event
                        planners approach and respond to prospective and current members the
                        same way regardless of their apparent ethnicities, and that all the
                        people with whom I've spent much time at meetings and events do
                        likewise. If there is anyone in the branch who doesn't, they keep it
                        subtle and out of public view (like most modern racists in most
                        settings), and are doubtless aware that the majority response to any
                        overt racism would be strongly negative. I suspect that is true of
                        most, if not all, S.C.A. branches.

                        Apparent ethnicity is certainly not a barrier to participation in any
                        area of Society life. Gentles of varied backgrounds hold high
                        offices, are inducted into prestigious orders, and adopt personae
                        from whichever cultures interest them. (Our most active "Persian",
                        locally, has red hair and freckles, and the "Welsh" lady who used to
                        be principal of our dance guild has epicanthic folds.) And there
                        aren't any color-based glass ceilings. The crown prince and princess
                        present when I received my Award of Arms were African American
                        <http://historian.ansteorra.org/wiki/index.php?title=54th_Crown>, for
                        example, and the peerages are (from what I've seen) about as
                        ethnically diverse as the rest of the Society.


                        Coblaith Muimnech
                        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                        Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                        <http://coblaith.net>
                      • Stefan li Rous
                        Callahan Patrick callahanpatrick@yahoo.co.uk naspiritwalker@prodigy.net asked:
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
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                          "Callahan Patrick" callahanpatrick@... naspiritwalker@...
                          asked:

                          <<< I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at
                          least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to
                          primarily appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I
                          understand that this could be interpreted as a natural out growth of
                          The Society For Professional Anachronism's mission to study and learn
                          about certain aspects of European History, however if it would be
                          possible I would be very interested in knowing to what extent if any
                          other races participate in your games of skill and more generally in
                          the context of your events. Do you believe that people of these other
                          races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For
                          Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel
                          welcome in your groups? Does anyone have information on this? >>>

                          In some ways this sounds like a troll trying to stir up confrontation,
                          which I've seen through the years on the Rialto (rec.org.sca).
                          However, I will assume you are not doing this and will try to answer
                          your questions.

                          Likely, the SCA appeals mostly to those of white, European and Middle
                          Eastern descent because those are the areas that the SCA concentrates
                          on. However, skin color means little in the Society. I've seen plenty
                          of red-haired blue-eyed Japanese personas and blond Italians. Frankly,
                          most of the people in the SCA tend to be on the more liberal side,
                          especially with freedom of action and personal choice. Skin color
                          makes little difference and it is also very tolerant of non-mainstream
                          religions.

                          As an example, one of the most popular kings we've had in Ansteorra
                          was Mahti, who happens to be a fairly dark-skinned black man. While it
                          is possible to win the kingship on brute strength alone, it tends to
                          require more and it definitely requires more to be known as a good
                          monarch and a chivalrous fighter who people are happy to see win.

                          I am in the same barony as Coblaith, but lest you think we are too
                          small a sample size, there are these files in the SCA-SOCIOLOGY
                          section of the Florilegium. They give a cross-section of viewpoints
                          from other regions across the Known World.

                          SCA-gays-msg (16K) 9/17/98 Acceptance of Gays and Lesbians in
                          the SCA.
                          http://www.florilegium.org/files/SCA-SOCIOLOGY/SCA-gays-msg.html

                          SCA-minorites-msg (7K) 10/31/00 Attitudes in the SCA toward
                          minorities.
                          http://www.florilegium.org/files/SCA-SOCIOLOGY/SCA-minorties-msg.html

                          Stefan
                          --------
                          THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                          Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                          **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                          In a message dated 7/15/2009 11:33:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, callahanpatrick@yahoo.co.uk writes:
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 7/15/2009 11:33:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                            callahanpatrick@... writes:

                            <<I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least
                            as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to primarily
                            appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I understand that this could
                            be interpreted as a natural out growth of The Society For Professional
                            Anachronism's mission to study and learn about certain aspects of European
                            History, however if it would be possible I would be very interested in knowing
                            to what extent if any other races participate in your games of skill and
                            more generally in the context of your events. Do you believe that people of
                            these other races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For
                            Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome
                            in your groups? Does anyone have information on this?>>

                            From what I've seen in 20 years, I don't think it makes much difference to
                            most people in the SCA what anybody looks like. My local group is, yes,
                            primarily Caucasian and has been for 20 years, although we have had several
                            Hispanic members including one currently. Certainly none of us could care
                            less what a person's ethnicity is.
                            In thinking back over people I've met in 20 years, I can think of a number
                            of black and Asian members that I've seen, and oddly enough, most of the
                            ones I think of hold high rank in the SCA. Duchess Isabella of York, not
                            only a royal peer but also a Laurel (for Elizabethan costuming) is a black
                            woman married to a white man. Sir Diablu, commonly referred to as "The Black
                            Knight of the East". Mistress Dorigen, a Laurel. Another lady whose name
                            I am not sure of, who is a Pelican. Count Jafar of the Midrealm, may he
                            rest in peace. There are more beyond that. (Laurels are recognized
                            Society-wide for their skill in the arts, Pelicans for their service, and Knight
                            for prowess in heavy weapons combat. Duchess and Count and similar titles
                            denote those who have served as King and Queen.)

                            For what it's worth, there's little if any prejudice towards anyone with a
                            handicap, either. I've known a number of people with physical disabilities
                            who have participated fully in the SCA, including a knight who is an
                            amputee (and he joined the SCA after he lost the leg and was knighted for
                            fighting prowess, fighting on one leg and a crutch), people with hearing or
                            vision loss, and people with a variety of neurologic disabilities such as
                            cerebral palsy and spina bifida.

                            Brangwayna Morgan
                            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                            Lancaster PA

                            **************S T R E T C H your technology dollars with great laptop
                            deals from Dell!
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                            D5)
                          • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                            ... That s unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who earn that
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:15 +0000, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                              > I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world,
                              > there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice. Personally, I've been
                              > prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the
                              > behavior of that one woman...


                              That's unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there
                              are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who
                              earn that title did so largely because of their enthusiasm for teaching
                              others, and they give freely hundreds or even thousands of hours of
                              their time to help others learn.

                              I, too, have encountered "bad peers" of all three Orders (Laurel,
                              Pelican, and Knight). But I have encountered a lot more good ones than
                              bad.

                              In my experience, the SCA is full of 98% wonderful people, and 2% jerks.
                              With 30,000 members, that means there are 600 jerks. A few of them
                              happen to have peerages or crowns. Ignore or avoid the 2%, and have fun
                              with the other 98%. :-)

                              Kind regards,

                              Justin

                              --
                              ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                              Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                              Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                              fesswise reversed sable.

                              justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                            • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                              ... Sir Diablu is a truly wonderful human being! I have known him for years. He was also married to a white woman, Dame Anna Herold von Ossenheim, who
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:48 -0400, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                                > Duchess Isabella of York, not
                                > only a royal peer but also a Laurel (for Elizabethan costuming) is a
                                > black woman married to a white man. Sir Diablu, commonly referred to
                                > as "The Black Knight of the East".


                                Sir Diablu is a truly wonderful human being! I have known him for years.
                                He was also married to a white woman, Dame Anna Herold von Ossenheim,
                                who regrettably passed away a couple of years ago. She was a dear
                                friend, and a colleague in the Chirurgeonate.

                                Justin

                                --
                                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                                fesswise reversed sable.

                                justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                              • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                                Alas, it was losing my little tykes to such vicious cruelty - I TRUSTED those people with something very precious to me, they were LIVING THINGS that should
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Alas, it was losing my little 'tykes' to such vicious cruelty - I TRUSTED those people with something very precious to me, they were LIVING THINGS that should not have been so cruelly allowed to die of thirst and starvation...



                                  That hurt way more than the behavior of that laurel...  (tho, her laurel buddies tended to use only a very few books to declare what THEY thought 'period' should be.  That was another 'turn-off'.)



                                  I also adopted a stray cat - rescued it - at the urging of another SCA woman in this area - even tho I'd just rescued one from my own street and found a home for it - at my own expense.



                                  When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.  It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the apartment complex rules???  Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap - and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!



                                  Sorry.  Too much whining.  But that sort of behavior towards something helpless and innocent - just boggles my mind....



                                  Oversharing??  Ziddina


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Justinos Tekton called Justin" <justin@...>
                                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:04:27 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?

                                   




                                  On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:15 +0000, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                                  > I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world,
                                  > there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice. Personally, I've been
                                  > prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the
                                  > behavior of that one woman...

                                  That's unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there
                                  are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who
                                  earn that title did so largely because of their enthusiasm for teaching
                                  others, and they give freely hundreds or even thousands of hours of
                                  their time to help others learn.

                                  I, too, have encountered "bad peers" of all three Orders (Laurel,
                                  Pelican, and Knight). But I have encountered a lot more good ones than
                                  bad.

                                  In my experience, the SCA is full of 98% wonderful people, and 2% jerks.
                                  With 30,000 members, that means there are 600 jerks. A few of them
                                  happen to have peerages or crowns. Ignore or avoid the 2%, and have fun
                                  with the other 98%. :-)

                                  Kind regards,

                                  Justin

                                  --
                                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                  Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                                  fesswise reversed sable.

                                  justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Shere'e
                                  As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is considered
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house
                                    rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is
                                    considered "keeping a pet without permission" and is a major lease
                                    violation.

                                    It may seem cruel but here is a very good reason for this. Folks will feed
                                    strays which in turn attracts more strays and urban wildlife (skunks,
                                    possums, rats, mice, ect). Next thing you know you have a huge problem with
                                    them and all it takes is for one little kid to try petting the feral kitty,
                                    get bit and mom sues the apartment for allowing feral animals to congrigate
                                    on the property. In the meantime, Junior has to go in for a very painful set
                                    of Rabies shots because he THINKS it was a tabby kitty, No wait, it was a
                                    black kitty, no it was a white kitty. Maybe it was a skunk?

                                    In case you think I am anti-animal I am not, we have 5 cats, all of which
                                    are rescues. Nor is my complex. Animals are more than welcome. I think about
                                    40% of my tenants have animals of some sort and our rules are set up to
                                    encourage people to have a pet. We will even allow payments on the pet
                                    deposit as low as $10 a month and do not charge a "pet rent" which some
                                    places do.



                                    I agree with Justin that just because someone has an award does not mean
                                    that they are a perfect person. Look at the BOD meeting minutes. You will
                                    see that some of the people who are banished have titles and awards. You are
                                    dealing with PEOPLE and they are as good and as bad as any other group.

                                    Lady Miranda

                                    www.webeweddings.com
                                    Unique Weddings for Unique Couples


                                    (SNIPPING FOR LENGTH)

                                    On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, <Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.
                                    > It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me
                                    > about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the
                                    > apartment complex rules??? Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap -
                                    > and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!
                                    > Oversharing?? Ziddina
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                                    Not to keep going on this subject, cause it is so painful and probably brings up painful memories for other people, but - the woman had a pet dog in her
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Not to keep going on this subject, 'cause it is so painful and probably brings up painful memories for other people, but - the woman had a pet dog in her apartment and CLAIMED to like animals...



                                      It was only later that she blurted out - in front of four other SCA'ers - that she'd been RAT FINKING on OTHERS who had pets - and pets were allowed, if one paid a small fee - within the apartment complex.  Her speech went something like, "Oh, there are all these stray cats around our apartment complex; 'course, I tell the management when someone has a pet and shouldn't have - oh, maybe I'm responsible for all those cats running around the apartment complex!"  She said it with the most disgusting "Oh, My? What have I done?" cutesy-pie expression in her voice...



                                      I absolutely dropped her like a millstone [we had previously been 'friends'] at that instant.  Vicious, bizarre, and MENTal...



                                      And now you know the rest of the story.  By the way, I assume that there are rescue organizations that you might be able to call - as well as the local Humane Society and in worse-case scenarios the local Animal Control people - to assist with the pet overpopulations situation???  If people would only have their animals spayed/neutered...  So sad.  Ziddina


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Shere'e" <shereerobinson@...>
                                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:53:59 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Cruel threesome allowing my hamsters to  starve/thirst to death

                                       




                                      As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house
                                      rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is
                                      considered "keeping a pet without permission" and is a major lease
                                      violation.

                                      It may seem cruel but here is a very good reason for this. Folks will feed
                                      strays which in turn attracts more strays and urban wildlife (skunks,
                                      possums, rats, mice, ect). Next thing you know you have a huge problem with
                                      them and all it takes is for one little kid to try petting the feral kitty,
                                      get bit and mom sues the apartment for allowing feral animals to congrigate
                                      on the property. In the meantime, Junior has to go in for a very painful set
                                      of Rabies shots because he THINKS it was a tabby kitty, No wait, it was a
                                      black kitty, no it was a white kitty. Maybe it was a skunk?

                                      In case you think I am anti-animal I am not, we have 5 cats, all of which
                                      are rescues. Nor is my complex. Animals are more than welcome. I think about
                                      40% of my tenants have animals of some sort and our rules are set up to
                                      encourage people to have a pet. We will even allow payments on the pet
                                      deposit as low as $10 a month and do not charge a "pet rent" which some
                                      places do.

                                      I agree with Justin that just because someone has an award does not mean
                                      that they are a perfect person. Look at the BOD meeting minutes. You will
                                      see that some of the people who are banished have titles and awards. You are
                                      dealing with PEOPLE and they are as good and as bad as any other group.

                                      Lady Miranda

                                      www.webeweddings.com
                                      Unique Weddings for Unique Couples

                                      (SNIPPING FOR LENGTH)

                                      On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, < Ziddinaaitzumar@... > wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.
                                      > It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me
                                      > about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the
                                      > apartment complex rules??? Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap -
                                      > and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!
                                      > Oversharing?? Ziddina
                                      >
                                      >

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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