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Dark skin dye?

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  • Judith Epstein
    I m pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it s okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker skin, and would love to
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
      I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
      okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
      skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
      the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
      redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and I'm
      going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black like
      a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
      the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
      been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
      success, and why it doesn't work for me:

      1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.

      2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
      wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.

      3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
      it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
      there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.

      4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an injection
      of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
      by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
      which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin cancer,
      which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and it's
      expensive.

      5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin orange
      like henna.

      6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
      far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.

      Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily over a
      period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the duration of
      a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
      washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
      Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).

      -- Judith / Divash
    • Ron Osceola
      Canthaxanthin is sold in several health food places I ve been as a tanning agent for bodybuilders. Canthaxanthin is stored in bodyfat. Your palms/soles of your
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
        Canthaxanthin is sold in several health food places I've been as a tanning
        agent for bodybuilders. Canthaxanthin is stored in bodyfat. Your palms/soles
        of your feet will be the first places to show signs of canthaxanthin and
        will also show it strongest. It is always a good idea to load canthaxanthin
        (3-6 tabs a day taken with meals) and as soon as your hands turn orange/red
        cut the dose to 1-2 tabs a day (taken in the morning). If after a month you
        notice your color fading and if you want to darken up more you can reload.

        Another thing I have heard (but not tried personally) is iodine mixed with
        baby oil and rubbed onto the skin. Obviously you would have some control of
        the color by how much iodine you put into the baby oil.


        On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Judith Epstein <judith@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
        > okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
        > skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
        > the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
        > redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and I'm
        > going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black like
        > a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
        > the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
        > been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
        > success, and why it doesn't work for me:
        >
        > 1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.
        >
        > 2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
        > wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.
        >
        > 3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
        > it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
        > there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.
        >
        > 4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an injection
        > of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
        > by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
        > which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin cancer,
        > which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and it's
        > expensive.
        >
        > 5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin orange
        > like henna.
        >
        > 6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
        > far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.
        >
        > Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily over a
        > period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the duration of
        > a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
        > washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
        > Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).
        >
        > -- Judith / Divash
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Love and Blessings,
        Ron Osceola, CHT

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bearintuitions
        804.385.0485


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Judith Epstein
        Thanks, Ron! Will it turn me brown, though, or orange? I ve heard of canthaxanthin before but not tried it myself. I really want to avoid an orangey color if
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
          Thanks, Ron! Will it turn me brown, though, or orange? I've heard of
          canthaxanthin before but not tried it myself. I really want to avoid
          an orangey color if possible.

          On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Ron Osceola wrote:

          > Canthaxanthin is sold in several health food places I've been as a
          > tanning
          > agent for bodybuilders. Canthaxanthin is stored in bodyfat. Your
          > palms/soles
          > of your feet will be the first places to show signs of canthaxanthin
          > and
          > will also show it strongest. It is always a good idea to load
          > canthaxanthin
          > (3-6 tabs a day taken with meals) and as soon as your hands turn
          > orange/red
          > cut the dose to 1-2 tabs a day (taken in the morning). If after a
          > month you
          > notice your color fading and if you want to darken up more you can
          > reload.
          >
          > Another thing I have heard (but not tried personally) is iodine
          > mixed with
          > baby oil and rubbed onto the skin. Obviously you would have some
          > control of
          > the color by how much iodine you put into the baby oil.
          >
          > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Judith Epstein <judith@...>
          > wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
          > > okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
          > > skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
          > > the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
          > > redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and
          > I'm
          > > going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black
          > like
          > > a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
          > > the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
          > > been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
          > > success, and why it doesn't work for me:
          > >
          > > 1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.
          > >
          > > 2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
          > > wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.
          > >
          > > 3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
          > > it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
          > > there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.
          > >
          > > 4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an
          > injection
          > > of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
          > > by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
          > > which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin
          > cancer,
          > > which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and
          > it's
          > > expensive.
          > >
          > > 5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin
          > orange
          > > like henna.
          > >
          > > 6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
          > > far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.
          > >
          > > Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily
          > over a
          > > period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the
          > duration of
          > > a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
          > > washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
          > > Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).
          > >
          > > -- Judith / Divash
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > Love and Blessings,
          > Ron Osceola, CHT
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bearintuitions
          > 804.385.0485
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tonya
          You might want to try Jan Tana tanning products. Its what bodybuilders use to get a deep dark tan for competions. I ve heard it stains the skin and takes days
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
            You might want to try Jan Tana tanning products. Its what bodybuilders use to get a deep dark tan for competions. I've heard it stains the skin and takes days to come off completely but will bleed off some on clothes but might work to get u through a weekend event. There website is www.jantana.com

            Maerwynn
            Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Judith Epstein <judith@...>

            Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:52:10
            To: <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>; <sca-middle@...>; <SCA-Tree-Girt-Sea@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?


            I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
            okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
            skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
            the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
            redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and I'm
            going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black like
            a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
            the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
            been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
            success, and why it doesn't work for me:

            1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.

            2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
            wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.

            3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
            it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
            there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.

            4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an injection
            of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
            by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
            which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin cancer,
            which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and it's
            expensive.

            5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin orange
            like henna.

            6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
            far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.

            Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily over a
            period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the duration of
            a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
            washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
            Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).

            -- Judith / Divash




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron Osceola
            I am Seminole Native American ..so kinda tending to the dark anyway, it turns me a really dark brown for about 4 days. Unfortunately, you will burn like heck
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
              I am Seminole Native American ..so kinda tending to the dark anyway, it
              turns me a really dark brown for about 4 days. Unfortunately, you will burn
              like heck when you stay outside (no sun protection at all.)

              What is your persona, do you want to be brown on exposed surfaces or pretty
              much all over?

              On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Judith Epstein <judith@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Thanks, Ron! Will it turn me brown, though, or orange? I've heard of
              > canthaxanthin before but not tried it myself. I really want to avoid
              > an orangey color if possible.
              >
              >
              > On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Ron Osceola wrote:
              >
              > > Canthaxanthin is sold in several health food places I've been as a
              > > tanning
              > > agent for bodybuilders. Canthaxanthin is stored in bodyfat. Your
              > > palms/soles
              > > of your feet will be the first places to show signs of canthaxanthin
              > > and
              > > will also show it strongest. It is always a good idea to load
              > > canthaxanthin
              > > (3-6 tabs a day taken with meals) and as soon as your hands turn
              > > orange/red
              > > cut the dose to 1-2 tabs a day (taken in the morning). If after a
              > > month you
              > > notice your color fading and if you want to darken up more you can
              > > reload.
              > >
              > > Another thing I have heard (but not tried personally) is iodine
              > > mixed with
              > > baby oil and rubbed onto the skin. Obviously you would have some
              > > control of
              > > the color by how much iodine you put into the baby oil.
              > >
              > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Judith Epstein <judith@...<judith%40ipstenu.org>>
              >
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
              > > > okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
              > > > skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
              > > > the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
              > > > redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and
              > > I'm
              > > > going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black
              > > like
              > > > a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
              > > > the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
              > > > been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
              > > > success, and why it doesn't work for me:
              > > >
              > > > 1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.
              > > >
              > > > 2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
              > > > wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.
              > > >
              > > > 3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
              > > > it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
              > > > there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.
              > > >
              > > > 4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an
              > > injection
              > > > of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
              > > > by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
              > > > which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin
              > > cancer,
              > > > which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and
              > > it's
              > > > expensive.
              > > >
              > > > 5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin
              > > orange
              > > > like henna.
              > > >
              > > > 6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
              > > > far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.
              > > >
              > > > Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily
              > > over a
              > > > period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the
              > > duration of
              > > > a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
              > > > washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
              > > > Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).
              > > >
              > > > -- Judith / Divash
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > --
              > > Love and Blessings,
              > > Ron Osceola, CHT
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bearintuitions
              > > 804.385.0485
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Love and Blessings,
              Ron Osceola, CHT

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bearintuitions
              804.385.0485


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Judith Epstein
              I haven t worked out the fine details of my persona yet, but I know that I want her to be a Jew from either North Africa (Morocco to Yemen, somewhere in that
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
                I haven't worked out the fine details of my persona yet, but I know
                that I want her to be a Jew from either North Africa (Morocco to
                Yemen, somewhere in that area), or the Holy Land. I don't need full-
                body browning, just the exposed surface skin. I won't have all that
                many exposed surfaces, but the ones that will be exposed (face, hands,
                feet, and possibly some of the lower leg if it's windy out) are the
                hardest to cover with dye, due to normal sweating, washing, and
                exposure to abrasion. Since I'm so pasty and pale, any orange tone
                will show up very much on me.

                On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Ron Osceola wrote:

                > I am Seminole Native American ..so kinda tending to the dark anyway,
                > it
                > turns me a really dark brown for about 4 days. Unfortunately, you
                > will burn
                > like heck when you stay outside (no sun protection at all.)
                >
                > What is your persona, do you want to be brown on exposed surfaces or
                > pretty
                > much all over?


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lovedaia
                You didn t mention spray-tan in your options. Call around tanning salons in your area and find a good place that does spray tans. You can take a few
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 9, 2009
                  You didn't mention spray-tan in your options. Call around tanning
                  salons in your area and find a good place that does spray tans. You can
                  take a few applications to reach as dark as you want, and it will hold
                  most of it's color for 4-5 days. It's done with a spray gun by a
                  professional.

                  It's what they use on shows like Dancing With The Stars...so everyone
                  looks dark and sexy, and it doesn't rub or sweat off ... but it's a more
                  natural color than self tanners. I'm fair too....self tanners make me
                  orange, all of them, even the expensive Estee Lauder type things.

                  Want to just try it out? I bet a couple of place would do a test patch
                  for you in a hidden place so you can watch it for a few hours and see
                  how the color develops.

                  Lovedaia of Calontir



                  Judith Epstein wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I haven't worked out the fine details of my persona yet, but I know
                  > that I want her to be a Jew from either North Africa (Morocco to
                  > Yemen, somewhere in that area), or the Holy Land. I don't need full-
                  > body browning, just the exposed surface skin. I won't have all that
                  > many exposed surfaces, but the ones that will be exposed (face, hands,
                  > feet, and possibly some of the lower leg if it's windy out) are the
                  > hardest to cover with dye, due to normal sweating, washing, and
                  > exposure to abrasion. Since I'm so pasty and pale, any orange tone
                  > will show up very much on me.
                  >
                  > On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Ron Osceola wrote:
                  >
                  > > I am Seminole Native American ..so kinda tending to the dark anyway,
                  > > it
                  > > turns me a really dark brown for about 4 days. Unfortunately, you
                  > > will burn
                  > > like heck when you stay outside (no sun protection at all.)
                  > >
                  > > What is your persona, do you want to be brown on exposed surfaces or
                  > > pretty
                  > > much all over?
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Marlene Ladouceur
                  Dia duit! The aunt of my husband wanted, for an Halloween party, to be an African person and took a black ink bath... Oh, it works good but 3 things about it:
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 10, 2009
                    Dia duit!

                    The aunt of my husband wanted, for an Halloween party, to be an African person and took a black ink bath... Oh, it works good but 3 things about it:

                    1. your white bath is black for a month and more ;0)

                    2. Your skin is very black (not brown black like those persons) for few weeks and also don`t looks natural.

                    3 DON`T DO THIS BECAUSE IT IS VERY DANGEROUS TO POISONOUS YOURSELF! Ink is poison ;0) The aunt in question did`nt poisoned herself, but a friend of mine who is doctor, told me that this is potentiencialy dangerous...



                    A suggestion: you could just dress yourself and act like those people without being black skinned. Say that you where adopted by them...or something like that ;0)


                    Lady Éadaoin Uì Brien

                    Shire La Selve d`Aure







                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com; sca-middle@...; SCA-Tree-Girt-Sea@yahoogroups.com
                    From: judith@...
                    Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:52:10 -0500
                    Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?







                    I'm pasty-pale, and I want my persona to be quite dark. I know it's
                    okay to be pale even when one has a pale persona, but I LIKE darker
                    skin, and would love to have it, even if for only a few days out of
                    the year. I'm very pale, freckled, red-haired (or, ahem, I was a
                    redhead before it all started turning darker and then white), and I'm
                    going for... well, as dark as I can get, anything from deep black like
                    a Nubian to a cinnamon brown like an Indian or dark Arab. I can't be
                    the only person who's tried this, but I hope someone out there has
                    been more successful than I have! Here's what I've tried without
                    success, and why it doesn't work for me:

                    1. Henna. Turns me orange, not brown.

                    2. Make-up/cosmetics. Washes right off, especially my hands, which I
                    wash often for hygiene. Also, it smears onto my clothes.

                    3. Walnut hull. It goes on dark, changes my hair color and any cloth
                    it touches, but then washes right off my skin as if it were never
                    there. Sad, because this was my best bet so far.

                    4. The solution from "Black Like Me," tanning pills plus an injection
                    of a certain chemical. I've spoken to my doctor about this. It works
                    by damaging the skin cells and making them extremely sun-sensitive,
                    which I don't need; it puts a person at a higher risk of skin cancer,
                    which I also don't need because it already runs in my family; and it's
                    expensive.

                    5. Tanning pills. Either they don't work, or they turn the skin orange
                    like henna.

                    6. Self-tanning lotions. I've only tried a handful of these, but so
                    far, they've all turned me orange instead of brown.

                    Any thoughts? Ideally I'd only have to apply it once (or daily over a
                    period of a few days) in order for it to last at least the duration of
                    a weekend-long event, complete with showering and lots of hand
                    washing. Even better if it would last for the duration of, say,
                    Pennsic (I can't go this year, but I'm hoping for next year).

                    -- Judith / Divash









                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Avec Windows Live, vous gardez le contact avec tous vos amis au même endroit.
                    http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9660830

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sara L Uckelman
                    ... *laugh* Having recently spilled about half a bottle of sepia ink, I can confirm that sepia will dye your skin a lovely dark brown which will last through
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 10, 2009
                      Quoth Marlene Ladouceur:
                      > The aunt of my husband wanted, for an Halloween party, to be an African per=
                      > son and took a black ink bath... Oh, it works good but 3 things about it:=20

                      *laugh* Having recently spilled about half a bottle of sepia
                      ink, I can confirm that sepia will dye your skin a lovely dark
                      brown which will last through at least a couple of washings
                      with soap.

                      -Aryanhwy




                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    • Callahan Patrick
                      To Whom It May Concern: I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 15, 2009
                        To Whom It May Concern:

                        I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to primarily appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I understand that this could be interpreted as a natural out growth of The Society For Professional Anachronism's mission to study and learn about certain aspects of European History, however if it would be possible I would be very interested in knowing to what extent if any other races participate in your games of skill and more generally in the context of your events. Do you believe that people of these other races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome in your groups? Does anyone have information on this?

                        PMC_,___
                      • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                        Hmm.  I ve wondered about that, myself.  Speaking from personal experience here, in the western U.S., people of color seem to generally be accepted as part
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                          Hmm.  I've wondered about that, myself.  Speaking from personal experience here, in the western U.S., people of 'color' seem to generally be accepted as part of the group.



                          In fact, that Laurel who I've complained about (her extremely boorish behavior towards people's garb, she tended to run up to people and begin snatching at their clothes/hats/hairpieces without so much as a "by-your-leave"), is a person 'of color'...  She was VERY WELL established within her Barony; so much so that everyone else ['white'] feared to bring the unpleasant aspects of her behavior to her attention...



                          Which I DID do, because I can't stand rude, stupid behavior no matter WHAT color the person is.  As one of Herman Melville's characters said in "Moby Dick", "I'd strike the sun if it insulted me!"  In other words, I speak my mind forcefully and directly, often with little to no regard for a person's 'status' within the SCA - or corporate America, for that matter.



                          My behavior towards her started [rumors abound in the SCA] a rumor that I was 'prejudiced' against her because of her 'color'.  Hmmm.  Little did any of the SCA members know that I'd dated a black man when in my early twenties, and had actually proposed marriage TO HIM.  Luckily for him, he turned me down.  (I'm a redhead - sort of - with a fiery temper.  Pray for my current husband...)



                          I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world, there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice.  Personally, I've been prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the behavior of that one woman...



                          Dunno if that helped answer your question...  Actually, I've got olive skin [pale], dark eyes, and ash-brown hair that turns reddish in the sun.  I'm what is called "Black" Irish - I've got Spanish blood from somewhere back in time (probably the time of the Spanish Armada...) and through the Spanish blood, may even have some Berber/Moorish blood in me...



                          Which, interestingly enough, turned out to be the persona I chose for playing in the SCA...



                          Ziddina ait Zumar - name registered, slightly pre-period Berber [Imazighen] name from the area of North Africa in the time [roughly] of Imperial Rome.


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Callahan Patrick" <callahanpatrick@...>
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:33:07 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?

                           





                          To Whom It May Concern:

                          I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to primarily appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I understand that this could be interpreted as a natural out growth of The Society For Professional Anachronism's mission to study and learn about certain aspects of European History, however if it would be possible I would be very interested in knowing to what extent if any other races participate in your games of skill and more generally in the context of your events. Do you believe that people of these other races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome in your groups? Does anyone have information on this?

                          PMC_,___













                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Coblaith Muimnech
                          ... I m going to assume you meant The Society for Creative Anachronism , since that s the organization with this Yahoo! Group is associated. I wouldn t
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                            PMC wrote:
                            > I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at
                            > least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to
                            > primarily appeal to people of the white or paler
                            > complexion.. . .Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome
                            > in your groups?

                            I'm going to assume you meant "The Society for Creative Anachronism",
                            since that's the organization with this Yahoo! Group is associated.

                            I wouldn't hesitate to take a friend of any phenotype to an S.C.A.
                            event or meeting. I'm sure there are bigoted apples in the barrel
                            and that the degree to which color is an issue varies from branch to
                            branch in the Society as it does from town to town within the rest of
                            the U.S. population, but I think it likely that the S.C.A., as a
                            whole, is a little more "colorblind" than American society, as a
                            whole. Generally speaking, we tend to attract more folks who stand
                            closer to the live-and-let-live end of the spectrum than to the
                            different-from-me-is-wrong end.

                            My barony is based in Austin, Texas. We have only a handful of
                            members who aren't white (based on their appearance--I haven't done
                            any polls to determine self-perceived identities), but most of the
                            people who come looking for us or who happen across one of our
                            meetings are also white. I think the proportions are probably about
                            the same. I know that our officers, guild leaders, and event
                            planners approach and respond to prospective and current members the
                            same way regardless of their apparent ethnicities, and that all the
                            people with whom I've spent much time at meetings and events do
                            likewise. If there is anyone in the branch who doesn't, they keep it
                            subtle and out of public view (like most modern racists in most
                            settings), and are doubtless aware that the majority response to any
                            overt racism would be strongly negative. I suspect that is true of
                            most, if not all, S.C.A. branches.

                            Apparent ethnicity is certainly not a barrier to participation in any
                            area of Society life. Gentles of varied backgrounds hold high
                            offices, are inducted into prestigious orders, and adopt personae
                            from whichever cultures interest them. (Our most active "Persian",
                            locally, has red hair and freckles, and the "Welsh" lady who used to
                            be principal of our dance guild has epicanthic folds.) And there
                            aren't any color-based glass ceilings. The crown prince and princess
                            present when I received my Award of Arms were African American
                            <http://historian.ansteorra.org/wiki/index.php?title=54th_Crown>, for
                            example, and the peerages are (from what I've seen) about as
                            ethnically diverse as the rest of the Society.


                            Coblaith Muimnech
                            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                            Kingdom of Ansteorra
                            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                            <http://coblaith.net>
                          • Stefan li Rous
                            Callahan Patrick callahanpatrick@yahoo.co.uk naspiritwalker@prodigy.net asked:
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                              "Callahan Patrick" callahanpatrick@... naspiritwalker@...
                              asked:

                              <<< I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at
                              least as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to
                              primarily appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I
                              understand that this could be interpreted as a natural out growth of
                              The Society For Professional Anachronism's mission to study and learn
                              about certain aspects of European History, however if it would be
                              possible I would be very interested in knowing to what extent if any
                              other races participate in your games of skill and more generally in
                              the context of your events. Do you believe that people of these other
                              races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For
                              Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel
                              welcome in your groups? Does anyone have information on this? >>>

                              In some ways this sounds like a troll trying to stir up confrontation,
                              which I've seen through the years on the Rialto (rec.org.sca).
                              However, I will assume you are not doing this and will try to answer
                              your questions.

                              Likely, the SCA appeals mostly to those of white, European and Middle
                              Eastern descent because those are the areas that the SCA concentrates
                              on. However, skin color means little in the Society. I've seen plenty
                              of red-haired blue-eyed Japanese personas and blond Italians. Frankly,
                              most of the people in the SCA tend to be on the more liberal side,
                              especially with freedom of action and personal choice. Skin color
                              makes little difference and it is also very tolerant of non-mainstream
                              religions.

                              As an example, one of the most popular kings we've had in Ansteorra
                              was Mahti, who happens to be a fairly dark-skinned black man. While it
                              is possible to win the kingship on brute strength alone, it tends to
                              require more and it definitely requires more to be known as a good
                              monarch and a chivalrous fighter who people are happy to see win.

                              I am in the same barony as Coblaith, but lest you think we are too
                              small a sample size, there are these files in the SCA-SOCIOLOGY
                              section of the Florilegium. They give a cross-section of viewpoints
                              from other regions across the Known World.

                              SCA-gays-msg (16K) 9/17/98 Acceptance of Gays and Lesbians in
                              the SCA.
                              http://www.florilegium.org/files/SCA-SOCIOLOGY/SCA-gays-msg.html

                              SCA-minorites-msg (7K) 10/31/00 Attitudes in the SCA toward
                              minorities.
                              http://www.florilegium.org/files/SCA-SOCIOLOGY/SCA-minorties-msg.html

                              Stefan
                              --------
                              THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
                              Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous@...
                              **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
                            • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                              In a message dated 7/15/2009 11:33:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, callahanpatrick@yahoo.co.uk writes:
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                In a message dated 7/15/2009 11:33:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                callahanpatrick@... writes:

                                <<I have noticed that in The Society For Professional Anachronism at least
                                as far as the United States of America is concerned seems to primarily
                                appeal to people of the white or paler complexion. I understand that this could
                                be interpreted as a natural out growth of The Society For Professional
                                Anachronism's mission to study and learn about certain aspects of European
                                History, however if it would be possible I would be very interested in knowing
                                to what extent if any other races participate in your games of skill and
                                more generally in the context of your events. Do you believe that people of
                                these other races generally treated well and excepted in The Society For
                                Professional Anachronism. Would my friends of darker complexion feel welcome
                                in your groups? Does anyone have information on this?>>

                                From what I've seen in 20 years, I don't think it makes much difference to
                                most people in the SCA what anybody looks like. My local group is, yes,
                                primarily Caucasian and has been for 20 years, although we have had several
                                Hispanic members including one currently. Certainly none of us could care
                                less what a person's ethnicity is.
                                In thinking back over people I've met in 20 years, I can think of a number
                                of black and Asian members that I've seen, and oddly enough, most of the
                                ones I think of hold high rank in the SCA. Duchess Isabella of York, not
                                only a royal peer but also a Laurel (for Elizabethan costuming) is a black
                                woman married to a white man. Sir Diablu, commonly referred to as "The Black
                                Knight of the East". Mistress Dorigen, a Laurel. Another lady whose name
                                I am not sure of, who is a Pelican. Count Jafar of the Midrealm, may he
                                rest in peace. There are more beyond that. (Laurels are recognized
                                Society-wide for their skill in the arts, Pelicans for their service, and Knight
                                for prowess in heavy weapons combat. Duchess and Count and similar titles
                                denote those who have served as King and Queen.)

                                For what it's worth, there's little if any prejudice towards anyone with a
                                handicap, either. I've known a number of people with physical disabilities
                                who have participated fully in the SCA, including a knight who is an
                                amputee (and he joined the SCA after he lost the leg and was knighted for
                                fighting prowess, fighting on one leg and a crutch), people with hearing or
                                vision loss, and people with a variety of neurologic disabilities such as
                                cerebral palsy and spina bifida.

                                Brangwayna Morgan
                                Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                Lancaster PA

                                **************S T R E T C H your technology dollars with great laptop
                                deals from Dell!
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                                D5)
                              • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                                ... That s unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who earn that
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                  On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:15 +0000, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                                  > I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world,
                                  > there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice. Personally, I've been
                                  > prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the
                                  > behavior of that one woman...


                                  That's unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there
                                  are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who
                                  earn that title did so largely because of their enthusiasm for teaching
                                  others, and they give freely hundreds or even thousands of hours of
                                  their time to help others learn.

                                  I, too, have encountered "bad peers" of all three Orders (Laurel,
                                  Pelican, and Knight). But I have encountered a lot more good ones than
                                  bad.

                                  In my experience, the SCA is full of 98% wonderful people, and 2% jerks.
                                  With 30,000 members, that means there are 600 jerks. A few of them
                                  happen to have peerages or crowns. Ignore or avoid the 2%, and have fun
                                  with the other 98%. :-)

                                  Kind regards,

                                  Justin

                                  --
                                  ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                  Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                  Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                                  fesswise reversed sable.

                                  justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                • Justinos Tekton called Justin
                                  ... Sir Diablu is a truly wonderful human being! I have known him for years. He was also married to a white woman, Dame Anna Herold von Ossenheim, who
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                    On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:48 -0400, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                                    > Duchess Isabella of York, not
                                    > only a royal peer but also a Laurel (for Elizabethan costuming) is a
                                    > black woman married to a white man. Sir Diablu, commonly referred to
                                    > as "The Black Knight of the East".


                                    Sir Diablu is a truly wonderful human being! I have known him for years.
                                    He was also married to a white woman, Dame Anna Herold von Ossenheim,
                                    who regrettably passed away a couple of years ago. She was a dear
                                    friend, and a colleague in the Chirurgeonate.

                                    Justin

                                    --
                                    ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                    Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                    Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                                    fesswise reversed sable.

                                    justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                                  • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                                    Alas, it was losing my little tykes to such vicious cruelty - I TRUSTED those people with something very precious to me, they were LIVING THINGS that should
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                      Alas, it was losing my little 'tykes' to such vicious cruelty - I TRUSTED those people with something very precious to me, they were LIVING THINGS that should not have been so cruelly allowed to die of thirst and starvation...



                                      That hurt way more than the behavior of that laurel...  (tho, her laurel buddies tended to use only a very few books to declare what THEY thought 'period' should be.  That was another 'turn-off'.)



                                      I also adopted a stray cat - rescued it - at the urging of another SCA woman in this area - even tho I'd just rescued one from my own street and found a home for it - at my own expense.



                                      When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.  It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the apartment complex rules???  Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap - and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!



                                      Sorry.  Too much whining.  But that sort of behavior towards something helpless and innocent - just boggles my mind....



                                      Oversharing??  Ziddina


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Justinos Tekton called Justin" <justin@...>
                                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:04:27 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Dark skin dye?

                                       




                                      On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 07:15 +0000, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                                      > I suspect that, as with any organization spread out around the world,
                                      > there will be pockets of bigotry and prejudice. Personally, I've been
                                      > prejudiced against LAURELS - of any and all colors - thanks to the
                                      > behavior of that one woman...

                                      That's unfortunate, and I urge you to reconsider. Percentage-wise, there
                                      are many more Laurels who are helpful and courteous. Many people who
                                      earn that title did so largely because of their enthusiasm for teaching
                                      others, and they give freely hundreds or even thousands of hours of
                                      their time to help others learn.

                                      I, too, have encountered "bad peers" of all three Orders (Laurel,
                                      Pelican, and Knight). But I have encountered a lot more good ones than
                                      bad.

                                      In my experience, the SCA is full of 98% wonderful people, and 2% jerks.
                                      With 30,000 members, that means there are 600 jerks. A few of them
                                      happen to have peerages or crowns. Ignore or avoid the 2%, and have fun
                                      with the other 98%. :-)

                                      Kind regards,

                                      Justin

                                      --
                                      ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                                      Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                                      Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two keys
                                      fesswise reversed sable.

                                      justin@... http://4th.com/sca/justin/




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Shere'e
                                      As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is considered
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                        As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house
                                        rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is
                                        considered "keeping a pet without permission" and is a major lease
                                        violation.

                                        It may seem cruel but here is a very good reason for this. Folks will feed
                                        strays which in turn attracts more strays and urban wildlife (skunks,
                                        possums, rats, mice, ect). Next thing you know you have a huge problem with
                                        them and all it takes is for one little kid to try petting the feral kitty,
                                        get bit and mom sues the apartment for allowing feral animals to congrigate
                                        on the property. In the meantime, Junior has to go in for a very painful set
                                        of Rabies shots because he THINKS it was a tabby kitty, No wait, it was a
                                        black kitty, no it was a white kitty. Maybe it was a skunk?

                                        In case you think I am anti-animal I am not, we have 5 cats, all of which
                                        are rescues. Nor is my complex. Animals are more than welcome. I think about
                                        40% of my tenants have animals of some sort and our rules are set up to
                                        encourage people to have a pet. We will even allow payments on the pet
                                        deposit as low as $10 a month and do not charge a "pet rent" which some
                                        places do.



                                        I agree with Justin that just because someone has an award does not mean
                                        that they are a perfect person. Look at the BOD meeting minutes. You will
                                        see that some of the people who are banished have titles and awards. You are
                                        dealing with PEOPLE and they are as good and as bad as any other group.

                                        Lady Miranda

                                        www.webeweddings.com
                                        Unique Weddings for Unique Couples


                                        (SNIPPING FOR LENGTH)

                                        On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, <Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.
                                        > It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me
                                        > about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the
                                        > apartment complex rules??? Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap -
                                        > and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!
                                        > Oversharing?? Ziddina
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                                        Not to keep going on this subject, cause it is so painful and probably brings up painful memories for other people, but - the woman had a pet dog in her
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 16, 2009
                                          Not to keep going on this subject, 'cause it is so painful and probably brings up painful memories for other people, but - the woman had a pet dog in her apartment and CLAIMED to like animals...



                                          It was only later that she blurted out - in front of four other SCA'ers - that she'd been RAT FINKING on OTHERS who had pets - and pets were allowed, if one paid a small fee - within the apartment complex.  Her speech went something like, "Oh, there are all these stray cats around our apartment complex; 'course, I tell the management when someone has a pet and shouldn't have - oh, maybe I'm responsible for all those cats running around the apartment complex!"  She said it with the most disgusting "Oh, My? What have I done?" cutesy-pie expression in her voice...



                                          I absolutely dropped her like a millstone [we had previously been 'friends'] at that instant.  Vicious, bizarre, and MENTal...



                                          And now you know the rest of the story.  By the way, I assume that there are rescue organizations that you might be able to call - as well as the local Humane Society and in worse-case scenarios the local Animal Control people - to assist with the pet overpopulations situation???  If people would only have their animals spayed/neutered...  So sad.  Ziddina


                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Shere'e" <shereerobinson@...>
                                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:53:59 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Cruel threesome allowing my hamsters to  starve/thirst to death

                                           




                                          As an apartment manager I can tell you a POSSIBLE reason. In our house
                                          rules (and many others) it clearly states that feeding strays or birds is
                                          considered "keeping a pet without permission" and is a major lease
                                          violation.

                                          It may seem cruel but here is a very good reason for this. Folks will feed
                                          strays which in turn attracts more strays and urban wildlife (skunks,
                                          possums, rats, mice, ect). Next thing you know you have a huge problem with
                                          them and all it takes is for one little kid to try petting the feral kitty,
                                          get bit and mom sues the apartment for allowing feral animals to congrigate
                                          on the property. In the meantime, Junior has to go in for a very painful set
                                          of Rabies shots because he THINKS it was a tabby kitty, No wait, it was a
                                          black kitty, no it was a white kitty. Maybe it was a skunk?

                                          In case you think I am anti-animal I am not, we have 5 cats, all of which
                                          are rescues. Nor is my complex. Animals are more than welcome. I think about
                                          40% of my tenants have animals of some sort and our rules are set up to
                                          encourage people to have a pet. We will even allow payments on the pet
                                          deposit as low as $10 a month and do not charge a "pet rent" which some
                                          places do.

                                          I agree with Justin that just because someone has an award does not mean
                                          that they are a perfect person. Look at the BOD meeting minutes. You will
                                          see that some of the people who are banished have titles and awards. You are
                                          dealing with PEOPLE and they are as good and as bad as any other group.

                                          Lady Miranda

                                          www.webeweddings.com
                                          Unique Weddings for Unique Couples

                                          (SNIPPING FOR LENGTH)

                                          On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, < Ziddinaaitzumar@... > wrote:

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > When I got that poor little black cat, she was almost dead of starvation.
                                          > It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why wasn't that SCA woman who TOLD me
                                          > about the cat, FEEDING it, even if she couldn't ADOPT it because of the
                                          > apartment complex rules??? Instead she dumped the whole thing in my lap -
                                          > and I live 15 miles away from her apartment complex!
                                          > Oversharing?? Ziddina
                                          >
                                          >

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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