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Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name

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  • Coblaith Muimnech
    ... There are two separate questions here. 1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot document to the period in which your persona is
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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      Jessica wrote:
      > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I
      > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th
      > century...is it ok to choose that name?

      There are two separate questions here.


      1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot
      document to the period in which your persona is set?

      Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to
      the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do
      persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name
      will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be
      made to determine whether it matches your clothes.


      2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a
      given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as
      part of the naming pool in some other?

      Maybe, if you get lucky.

      Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the
      name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names
      are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely
      used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the
      14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a
      favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",
      and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the
      U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not
      even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",
      which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20
      last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular
      from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then
      dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and
      shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/>

      This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to
      make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer
      readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods
      than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more
      solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there
      are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and
      thousands of records from another century, none of which include that
      name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not
      the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each
      period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not
      the other because it was used in one period and not the other or
      because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in
      one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between
      those extremes.


      Coblaith Muimnech
      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
      Kingdom of Ansteorra
      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      <http://coblaith.net>




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jessica
      You re very helpful, thank you! ... From: Coblaith Muimnech Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To:
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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        You're very helpful, thank you!

        --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:

        From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:51 AM

















        Jessica wrote:

        > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I

        > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th

        > century...is it ok to choose that name?



        There are two separate questions here.



        1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot

        document to the period in which your persona is set?



        Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to

        the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do

        persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name

        will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be

        made to determine whether it matches your clothes.



        2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a

        given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as

        part of the naming pool in some other?



        Maybe, if you get lucky.



        Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the

        name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names

        are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely

        used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the

        14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a

        favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",

        and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the

        U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not

        even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",

        which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20

        last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular

        from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then

        dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and

        shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa. gov/OACT/ babynames/>



        This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to

        make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer

        readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods

        than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more

        solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there

        are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and

        thousands of records from another century, none of which include that

        name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not

        the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each

        period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not

        the other because it was used in one period and not the other or

        because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in

        one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between

        those extremes.



        Coblaith Muimnech

        Barony of Bryn Gwlad

        Kingdom of Ansteorra

        <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>

        <http://coblaith. net>



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Coblaith Muimnech
        ... The Society s standards are a little looser than that. If a name contains name phrases that can t be documented closer than 300 years apart, it s
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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          Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
          > If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century and
          > a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a
          > problem, if you can document it them to within a few decades of one
          > another you will probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100
          > years or more) could get the name rejected.

          The Society's standards are a little looser than that. If a name
          contains name phrases that can't be documented closer than 300 years
          apart, it's described as being "one step from period practice". (The
          precedent was set in 1993 <http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1993/03/
          cvr.html>. The only thing that's changed since is the terminology;
          it used to be called "a weirdness".) Names that are two steps from
          period practice are returned for more work.


          Coblaith Muimnech
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
        • Sara L Uckelman
          ... Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story is. If you check
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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            Quoth Jessica:
            > I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.=
            > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name a=
            > pproved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?=A0 For exam=
            > ple, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find docume=
            > ntation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choo=
            > se that name?

            Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters
            is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story
            is. If you check the box requesting that your name be made authentic
            for a particular time period and place, the commenters will try to
            find information that will justify the name in your desired time
            period and place, but if they cannot, and the name is appropriate for
            an earlier or later period, then the discrepancy won't cause any
            problems.

            -Aryanhwy


            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          • Maria Buchanan
            Jessica, As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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              Jessica,
              As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
              That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
              Maria

              --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@...> wrote:

              From: Jessica <jessg74@...>
              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

















              Hello all,



              I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?



              Thanks for your help,



              Jessica



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Callahan Patrick
              Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name having nothing to do with anything historical or authentic to any culture or any time period. I admit fully that it is not submitted and not registered, but I did not have the troubles of registering it either, and there for my research could be minimal.

                Lost And Confused

                Patrick Callahan






                 
                Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                Thursday, 4 June, 2009 8:56 PM



                From:

                "Maria Buchanan" <scarlettmb@...>Add sender to Contacts



                To:
                scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com








                Jessica,
                As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                Maria

                --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                From: Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net>
                Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

                Hello all,

                I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

                Thanks for your help,

                Jessica

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Coblaith Muimnech
                Jessica ... To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including Elizabeth,
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                  Jessica
                  >
                  > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your
                  > name approved. . .

                  Patrick Callahan wrote:
                  > Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you
                  > care to put as an SCA name on the membership form...

                  To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name
                  official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including
                  "Elizabeth, Queen of England" or "Dazzle Lips Sparklepony", because
                  it means absolutely nothing. You can also just leave it blank,
                  which is probably the best move if you haven't yet decided for sure
                  what you want your S.C.A. name to be. That way, if you've got your
                  mind made up in a month or six you can just write it in, and don't
                  have to wait for the old "Dazzle Lips" card to expire before you can
                  have one with the name you've chosen. So far as I know, the only
                  reason there'sa "known in the Society as" line on the membership
                  cards at all is because it makes it easier to communicate the correct
                  spelling to gate staff when you check in at events, to marshals
                  filling out warrant cards, etc.


                  Coblaith Muimnech
                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                  <http://coblaith.net>
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