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RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name

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  • Jessica
    Thanks ... From: Elizabeth Walpole Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Date:
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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      Thanks

      --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...> wrote:

      From: Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...>
      Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:01 AM

















      -----Original Message-----

      From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

      Behalf Of Jessica

      Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM

      To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name



      Hello all,



      I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.

      Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name

      approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For

      example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find

      documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to

      choose that name?



      Thanks for your help,



      Jessica



      ------------ --------- --------- ------

      So long as you can document both halves of your name (given name and

      byname/surname) to the same time and place the heralds won't ask what your

      persona is. If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century

      and a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a problem, if

      you can document it them to within a few decades of one another you will

      probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100 years or more) could get

      the name rejected.

      I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Pomestnik about an earlier

      date making it OK, some names went out of fashion and stopped being used.

      Imagine in a few hundred years somebody recreating the 21st century and

      saying I can document the name Odnell to the 16th century

      (http://heraldry. sca.org/names/ english/parishes /parishes. html) therefore

      they must have used it in the 21st century too. If you can document it to

      either side of the time period you're looking at (e.g. if you want to

      document a name to the 15th century but you can find it in the 14th and 16th

      century) you could probably make a case for it having existed in the

      meantime.

      HTH

      Elizabeth

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --

      Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont

      Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac

      http://magpiecostum er.110mb. com/




























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Coblaith Muimnech
      ... There are two separate questions here. 1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot document to the period in which your persona is
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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        Jessica wrote:
        > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I
        > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th
        > century...is it ok to choose that name?

        There are two separate questions here.


        1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot
        document to the period in which your persona is set?

        Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to
        the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do
        persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name
        will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be
        made to determine whether it matches your clothes.


        2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a
        given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as
        part of the naming pool in some other?

        Maybe, if you get lucky.

        Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the
        name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names
        are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely
        used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the
        14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a
        favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",
        and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the
        U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not
        even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",
        which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20
        last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular
        from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then
        dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and
        shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/>

        This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to
        make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer
        readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods
        than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more
        solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there
        are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and
        thousands of records from another century, none of which include that
        name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not
        the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each
        period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not
        the other because it was used in one period and not the other or
        because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in
        one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between
        those extremes.


        Coblaith Muimnech
        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        Kingdom of Ansteorra
        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
        <http://coblaith.net>




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jessica
        You re very helpful, thank you! ... From: Coblaith Muimnech Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To:
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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          You're very helpful, thank you!

          --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:

          From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:51 AM

















          Jessica wrote:

          > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I

          > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th

          > century...is it ok to choose that name?



          There are two separate questions here.



          1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot

          document to the period in which your persona is set?



          Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to

          the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do

          persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name

          will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be

          made to determine whether it matches your clothes.



          2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a

          given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as

          part of the naming pool in some other?



          Maybe, if you get lucky.



          Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the

          name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names

          are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely

          used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the

          14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a

          favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",

          and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the

          U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not

          even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",

          which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20

          last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular

          from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then

          dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and

          shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa. gov/OACT/ babynames/>



          This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to

          make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer

          readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods

          than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more

          solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there

          are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and

          thousands of records from another century, none of which include that

          name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not

          the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each

          period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not

          the other because it was used in one period and not the other or

          because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in

          one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between

          those extremes.



          Coblaith Muimnech

          Barony of Bryn Gwlad

          Kingdom of Ansteorra

          <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>

          <http://coblaith. net>



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Coblaith Muimnech
          ... The Society s standards are a little looser than that. If a name contains name phrases that can t be documented closer than 300 years apart, it s
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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            Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
            > If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century and
            > a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a
            > problem, if you can document it them to within a few decades of one
            > another you will probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100
            > years or more) could get the name rejected.

            The Society's standards are a little looser than that. If a name
            contains name phrases that can't be documented closer than 300 years
            apart, it's described as being "one step from period practice". (The
            precedent was set in 1993 <http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1993/03/
            cvr.html>. The only thing that's changed since is the terminology;
            it used to be called "a weirdness".) Names that are two steps from
            period practice are returned for more work.


            Coblaith Muimnech
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story is. If you check
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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              Quoth Jessica:
              > I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.=
              > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name a=
              > pproved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?=A0 For exam=
              > ple, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find docume=
              > ntation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choo=
              > se that name?

              Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters
              is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story
              is. If you check the box requesting that your name be made authentic
              for a particular time period and place, the commenters will try to
              find information that will justify the name in your desired time
              period and place, but if they cannot, and the name is appropriate for
              an earlier or later period, then the discrepancy won't cause any
              problems.

              -Aryanhwy


              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            • Maria Buchanan
              Jessica, As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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                Jessica,
                As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                Maria

                --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@...> wrote:

                From: Jessica <jessg74@...>
                Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

















                Hello all,



                I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?



                Thanks for your help,



                Jessica



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Callahan Patrick
                Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                  Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name having nothing to do with anything historical or authentic to any culture or any time period. I admit fully that it is not submitted and not registered, but I did not have the troubles of registering it either, and there for my research could be minimal.

                  Lost And Confused

                  Patrick Callahan






                   
                  Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                  Thursday, 4 June, 2009 8:56 PM



                  From:

                  "Maria Buchanan" <scarlettmb@...>Add sender to Contacts



                  To:
                  scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com








                  Jessica,
                  As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                  That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                  Maria

                  --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                  From: Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net>
                  Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                  To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

                  Hello all,

                  I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

                  Thanks for your help,

                  Jessica

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                • Coblaith Muimnech
                  Jessica ... To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including Elizabeth,
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                    Jessica
                    >
                    > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your
                    > name approved. . .

                    Patrick Callahan wrote:
                    > Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you
                    > care to put as an SCA name on the membership form...

                    To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name
                    official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including
                    "Elizabeth, Queen of England" or "Dazzle Lips Sparklepony", because
                    it means absolutely nothing. You can also just leave it blank,
                    which is probably the best move if you haven't yet decided for sure
                    what you want your S.C.A. name to be. That way, if you've got your
                    mind made up in a month or six you can just write it in, and don't
                    have to wait for the old "Dazzle Lips" card to expire before you can
                    have one with the name you've chosen. So far as I know, the only
                    reason there'sa "known in the Society as" line on the membership
                    cards at all is because it makes it easier to communicate the correct
                    spelling to gate staff when you check in at events, to marshals
                    filling out warrant cards, etc.


                    Coblaith Muimnech
                    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                    Kingdom of Ansteorra
                    <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                    <http://coblaith.net>
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