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RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name

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  • Jessica
    That makes sense, thank you. ... From: christopher chastain Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: SCA New Comers
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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      That makes sense, thank you.

      --- On Thu, 6/4/09, christopher chastain <ckchastain@...> wrote:

      From: christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>
      Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
      To: "SCA New Comers" <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 12:24 AM


      I believe if its before your date say 12th century and our 14th century then its ok, if your 12th century and the name is 14th then no. Makee sensee?





      Yours in Humble Service,
      Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
      "Man is not Lost!"





      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      From: jessg74@...
      Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:03:10 -0700
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name







      Hello all,

      I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

      Thanks for your help,

      Jessica

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    • Jessica
      Thanks ... From: Elizabeth Walpole Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Date:
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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        Thanks

        --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...> wrote:

        From: Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...>
        Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:01 AM

















        -----Original Message-----

        From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

        Behalf Of Jessica

        Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM

        To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name



        Hello all,



        I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.

        Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name

        approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For

        example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find

        documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to

        choose that name?



        Thanks for your help,



        Jessica



        ------------ --------- --------- ------

        So long as you can document both halves of your name (given name and

        byname/surname) to the same time and place the heralds won't ask what your

        persona is. If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century

        and a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a problem, if

        you can document it them to within a few decades of one another you will

        probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100 years or more) could get

        the name rejected.

        I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Pomestnik about an earlier

        date making it OK, some names went out of fashion and stopped being used.

        Imagine in a few hundred years somebody recreating the 21st century and

        saying I can document the name Odnell to the 16th century

        (http://heraldry. sca.org/names/ english/parishes /parishes. html) therefore

        they must have used it in the 21st century too. If you can document it to

        either side of the time period you're looking at (e.g. if you want to

        document a name to the 15th century but you can find it in the 14th and 16th

        century) you could probably make a case for it having existed in the

        meantime.

        HTH

        Elizabeth

        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --

        Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont

        Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac

        http://magpiecostum er.110mb. com/




























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Coblaith Muimnech
        ... There are two separate questions here. 1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot document to the period in which your persona is
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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          Jessica wrote:
          > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I
          > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th
          > century...is it ok to choose that name?

          There are two separate questions here.


          1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot
          document to the period in which your persona is set?

          Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to
          the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do
          persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name
          will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be
          made to determine whether it matches your clothes.


          2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a
          given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as
          part of the naming pool in some other?

          Maybe, if you get lucky.

          Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the
          name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names
          are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely
          used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the
          14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a
          favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",
          and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the
          U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not
          even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",
          which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20
          last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular
          from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then
          dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and
          shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/>

          This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to
          make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer
          readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods
          than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more
          solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there
          are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and
          thousands of records from another century, none of which include that
          name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not
          the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each
          period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not
          the other because it was used in one period and not the other or
          because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in
          one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between
          those extremes.


          Coblaith Muimnech
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
          <http://coblaith.net>




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jessica
          You re very helpful, thank you! ... From: Coblaith Muimnech Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To:
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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            You're very helpful, thank you!

            --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:

            From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:51 AM

















            Jessica wrote:

            > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I

            > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th

            > century...is it ok to choose that name?



            There are two separate questions here.



            1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot

            document to the period in which your persona is set?



            Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to

            the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do

            persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name

            will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be

            made to determine whether it matches your clothes.



            2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a

            given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as

            part of the naming pool in some other?



            Maybe, if you get lucky.



            Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the

            name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names

            are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely

            used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the

            14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a

            favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",

            and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the

            U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not

            even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",

            which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20

            last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular

            from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then

            dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and

            shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa. gov/OACT/ babynames/>



            This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to

            make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer

            readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods

            than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more

            solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there

            are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and

            thousands of records from another century, none of which include that

            name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not

            the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each

            period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not

            the other because it was used in one period and not the other or

            because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in

            one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between

            those extremes.



            Coblaith Muimnech

            Barony of Bryn Gwlad

            Kingdom of Ansteorra

            <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>

            <http://coblaith. net>



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Coblaith Muimnech
            ... The Society s standards are a little looser than that. If a name contains name phrases that can t be documented closer than 300 years apart, it s
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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              Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
              > If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century and
              > a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a
              > problem, if you can document it them to within a few decades of one
              > another you will probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100
              > years or more) could get the name rejected.

              The Society's standards are a little looser than that. If a name
              contains name phrases that can't be documented closer than 300 years
              apart, it's described as being "one step from period practice". (The
              precedent was set in 1993 <http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1993/03/
              cvr.html>. The only thing that's changed since is the terminology;
              it used to be called "a weirdness".) Names that are two steps from
              period practice are returned for more work.


              Coblaith Muimnech
              Barony of Bryn Gwlad
              Kingdom of Ansteorra
              <mailto:Coblaith@...>
            • Sara L Uckelman
              ... Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story is. If you check
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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                Quoth Jessica:
                > I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.=
                > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name a=
                > pproved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?=A0 For exam=
                > ple, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find docume=
                > ntation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choo=
                > se that name?

                Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters
                is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story
                is. If you check the box requesting that your name be made authentic
                for a particular time period and place, the commenters will try to
                find information that will justify the name in your desired time
                period and place, but if they cannot, and the name is appropriate for
                an earlier or later period, then the discrepancy won't cause any
                problems.

                -Aryanhwy


                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              • Maria Buchanan
                Jessica, As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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                  Jessica,
                  As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                  That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                  Maria

                  --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@...> wrote:

                  From: Jessica <jessg74@...>
                  Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

















                  Hello all,



                  I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?



                  Thanks for your help,



                  Jessica



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Callahan Patrick
                  Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                    Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name having nothing to do with anything historical or authentic to any culture or any time period. I admit fully that it is not submitted and not registered, but I did not have the troubles of registering it either, and there for my research could be minimal.

                    Lost And Confused

                    Patrick Callahan






                     
                    Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                    Thursday, 4 June, 2009 8:56 PM



                    From:

                    "Maria Buchanan" <scarlettmb@...>Add sender to Contacts



                    To:
                    scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com








                    Jessica,
                    As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                    That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                    Maria

                    --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                    From: Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net>
                    Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                    To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

                    Hello all,

                    I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

                    Thanks for your help,

                    Jessica

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  • Coblaith Muimnech
                    Jessica ... To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including Elizabeth,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                      Jessica
                      >
                      > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your
                      > name approved. . .

                      Patrick Callahan wrote:
                      > Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you
                      > care to put as an SCA name on the membership form...

                      To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name
                      official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including
                      "Elizabeth, Queen of England" or "Dazzle Lips Sparklepony", because
                      it means absolutely nothing. You can also just leave it blank,
                      which is probably the best move if you haven't yet decided for sure
                      what you want your S.C.A. name to be. That way, if you've got your
                      mind made up in a month or six you can just write it in, and don't
                      have to wait for the old "Dazzle Lips" card to expire before you can
                      have one with the name you've chosen. So far as I know, the only
                      reason there'sa "known in the Society as" line on the membership
                      cards at all is because it makes it easier to communicate the correct
                      spelling to gate staff when you check in at events, to marshals
                      filling out warrant cards, etc.


                      Coblaith Muimnech
                      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                      Kingdom of Ansteorra
                      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                      <http://coblaith.net>
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