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RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name

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  • Elizabeth Walpole
    ... From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM To:
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
      -----Original Message-----
      From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Jessica
      Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name

      Hello all,

      I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.
      Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name
      approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For
      example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find
      documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to
      choose that name?

      Thanks for your help,

      Jessica

      ------------------------------------
      So long as you can document both halves of your name (given name and
      byname/surname) to the same time and place the heralds won't ask what your
      persona is. If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century
      and a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a problem, if
      you can document it them to within a few decades of one another you will
      probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100 years or more) could get
      the name rejected.
      I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Pomestnik about an earlier
      date making it OK, some names went out of fashion and stopped being used.
      Imagine in a few hundred years somebody recreating the 21st century and
      saying I can document the name Odnell to the 16th century
      (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/parishes/parishes.html) therefore
      they must have used it in the 21st century too. If you can document it to
      either side of the time period you're looking at (e.g. if you want to
      document a name to the 15th century but you can find it in the 14th and 16th
      century) you could probably make a case for it having existed in the
      meantime.
      HTH
      Elizabeth
      -----------------------------------------
      Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont
      Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
      http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/
    • Jessica
      That makes sense, thank you. ... From: christopher chastain Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: SCA New Comers
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
        That makes sense, thank you.

        --- On Thu, 6/4/09, christopher chastain <ckchastain@...> wrote:

        From: christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>
        Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
        To: "SCA New Comers" <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 12:24 AM


        I believe if its before your date say 12th century and our 14th century then its ok, if your 12th century and the name is 14th then no. Makee sensee?





        Yours in Humble Service,
        Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
        "Man is not Lost!"





        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        From: jessg74@...
        Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:03:10 -0700
        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name







        Hello all,

        I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

        Thanks for your help,

        Jessica

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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      • Jessica
        Thanks ... From: Elizabeth Walpole Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Date:
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
          Thanks

          --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...> wrote:

          From: Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...>
          Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:01 AM

















          -----Original Message-----

          From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

          Behalf Of Jessica

          Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM

          To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name



          Hello all,



          I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.

          Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name

          approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For

          example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find

          documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to

          choose that name?



          Thanks for your help,



          Jessica



          ------------ --------- --------- ------

          So long as you can document both halves of your name (given name and

          byname/surname) to the same time and place the heralds won't ask what your

          persona is. If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century

          and a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a problem, if

          you can document it them to within a few decades of one another you will

          probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100 years or more) could get

          the name rejected.

          I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Pomestnik about an earlier

          date making it OK, some names went out of fashion and stopped being used.

          Imagine in a few hundred years somebody recreating the 21st century and

          saying I can document the name Odnell to the 16th century

          (http://heraldry. sca.org/names/ english/parishes /parishes. html) therefore

          they must have used it in the 21st century too. If you can document it to

          either side of the time period you're looking at (e.g. if you want to

          document a name to the 15th century but you can find it in the 14th and 16th

          century) you could probably make a case for it having existed in the

          meantime.

          HTH

          Elizabeth

          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --

          Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont

          Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac

          http://magpiecostum er.110mb. com/




























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Coblaith Muimnech
          ... There are two separate questions here. 1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot document to the period in which your persona is
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
            Jessica wrote:
            > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I
            > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th
            > century...is it ok to choose that name?

            There are two separate questions here.


            1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot
            document to the period in which your persona is set?

            Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to
            the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do
            persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name
            will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be
            made to determine whether it matches your clothes.


            2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a
            given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as
            part of the naming pool in some other?

            Maybe, if you get lucky.

            Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the
            name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names
            are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely
            used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the
            14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a
            favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",
            and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the
            U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not
            even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",
            which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20
            last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular
            from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then
            dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and
            shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/>

            This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to
            make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer
            readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods
            than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more
            solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there
            are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and
            thousands of records from another century, none of which include that
            name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not
            the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each
            period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not
            the other because it was used in one period and not the other or
            because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in
            one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between
            those extremes.


            Coblaith Muimnech
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
            <http://coblaith.net>




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jessica
            You re very helpful, thank you! ... From: Coblaith Muimnech Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To:
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
              You're very helpful, thank you!

              --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:

              From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:51 AM

















              Jessica wrote:

              > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I

              > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th

              > century...is it ok to choose that name?



              There are two separate questions here.



              1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot

              document to the period in which your persona is set?



              Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to

              the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do

              persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name

              will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be

              made to determine whether it matches your clothes.



              2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a

              given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as

              part of the naming pool in some other?



              Maybe, if you get lucky.



              Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the

              name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names

              are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely

              used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the

              14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a

              favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",

              and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the

              U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not

              even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",

              which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20

              last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular

              from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then

              dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and

              shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa. gov/OACT/ babynames/>



              This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to

              make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer

              readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods

              than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more

              solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there

              are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and

              thousands of records from another century, none of which include that

              name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not

              the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each

              period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not

              the other because it was used in one period and not the other or

              because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in

              one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between

              those extremes.



              Coblaith Muimnech

              Barony of Bryn Gwlad

              Kingdom of Ansteorra

              <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>

              <http://coblaith. net>



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Coblaith Muimnech
              ... The Society s standards are a little looser than that. If a name contains name phrases that can t be documented closer than 300 years apart, it s
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
                Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
                > If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century and
                > a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a
                > problem, if you can document it them to within a few decades of one
                > another you will probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100
                > years or more) could get the name rejected.

                The Society's standards are a little looser than that. If a name
                contains name phrases that can't be documented closer than 300 years
                apart, it's described as being "one step from period practice". (The
                precedent was set in 1993 <http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1993/03/
                cvr.html>. The only thing that's changed since is the terminology;
                it used to be called "a weirdness".) Names that are two steps from
                period practice are returned for more work.


                Coblaith Muimnech
                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                Kingdom of Ansteorra
                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
              • Sara L Uckelman
                ... Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story is. If you check
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
                  Quoth Jessica:
                  > I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.=
                  > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name a=
                  > pproved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?=A0 For exam=
                  > ple, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find docume=
                  > ntation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choo=
                  > se that name?

                  Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters
                  is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story
                  is. If you check the box requesting that your name be made authentic
                  for a particular time period and place, the commenters will try to
                  find information that will justify the name in your desired time
                  period and place, but if they cannot, and the name is appropriate for
                  an earlier or later period, then the discrepancy won't cause any
                  problems.

                  -Aryanhwy


                  --
                  vita sine literis mors est
                  http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                • Maria Buchanan
                  Jessica, As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
                    Jessica,
                    As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                    That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                    Maria

                    --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@...> wrote:

                    From: Jessica <jessg74@...>
                    Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

















                    Hello all,



                    I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?



                    Thanks for your help,



                    Jessica



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Callahan Patrick
                    Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
                      Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name having nothing to do with anything historical or authentic to any culture or any time period. I admit fully that it is not submitted and not registered, but I did not have the troubles of registering it either, and there for my research could be minimal.

                      Lost And Confused

                      Patrick Callahan






                       
                      Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                      Thursday, 4 June, 2009 8:56 PM



                      From:

                      "Maria Buchanan" <scarlettmb@...>Add sender to Contacts



                      To:
                      scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com








                      Jessica,
                      As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                      That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                      Maria

                      --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                      From: Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net>
                      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                      To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

                      Hello all,

                      I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

                      Thanks for your help,

                      Jessica

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    • Coblaith Muimnech
                      Jessica ... To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including Elizabeth,
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
                        Jessica
                        >
                        > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your
                        > name approved. . .

                        Patrick Callahan wrote:
                        > Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you
                        > care to put as an SCA name on the membership form...

                        To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name
                        official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including
                        "Elizabeth, Queen of England" or "Dazzle Lips Sparklepony", because
                        it means absolutely nothing. You can also just leave it blank,
                        which is probably the best move if you haven't yet decided for sure
                        what you want your S.C.A. name to be. That way, if you've got your
                        mind made up in a month or six you can just write it in, and don't
                        have to wait for the old "Dazzle Lips" card to expire before you can
                        have one with the name you've chosen. So far as I know, the only
                        reason there'sa "known in the Society as" line on the membership
                        cards at all is because it makes it easier to communicate the correct
                        spelling to gate staff when you check in at events, to marshals
                        filling out warrant cards, etc.


                        Coblaith Muimnech
                        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                        Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                        <http://coblaith.net>
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