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RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name

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  • christopher chastain
    I believe if its before your date say 12th century and our 14th century then its ok, if your 12th century and the name is 14th then no. Makee sensee? Yours in
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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      I believe if its before your date say 12th century and our 14th century then its ok, if your 12th century and the name is 14th then no. Makee sensee?





      Yours in Humble Service,
      Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
      "Man is not Lost!"





      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      From: jessg74@...
      Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:03:10 -0700
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name







      Hello all,

      I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century? For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

      Thanks for your help,

      Jessica

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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    • Elizabeth Walpole
      ... From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM To:
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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        -----Original Message-----
        From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Jessica
        Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name

        Hello all,

        I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.
        Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name
        approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For
        example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find
        documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to
        choose that name?

        Thanks for your help,

        Jessica

        ------------------------------------
        So long as you can document both halves of your name (given name and
        byname/surname) to the same time and place the heralds won't ask what your
        persona is. If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century
        and a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a problem, if
        you can document it them to within a few decades of one another you will
        probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100 years or more) could get
        the name rejected.
        I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Pomestnik about an earlier
        date making it OK, some names went out of fashion and stopped being used.
        Imagine in a few hundred years somebody recreating the 21st century and
        saying I can document the name Odnell to the 16th century
        (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/parishes/parishes.html) therefore
        they must have used it in the 21st century too. If you can document it to
        either side of the time period you're looking at (e.g. if you want to
        document a name to the 15th century but you can find it in the 14th and 16th
        century) you could probably make a case for it having existed in the
        meantime.
        HTH
        Elizabeth
        -----------------------------------------
        Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont
        Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
        http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/
      • Jessica
        That makes sense, thank you. ... From: christopher chastain Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: SCA New Comers
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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          That makes sense, thank you.

          --- On Thu, 6/4/09, christopher chastain <ckchastain@...> wrote:

          From: christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>
          Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
          To: "SCA New Comers" <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 12:24 AM


          I believe if its before your date say 12th century and our 14th century then its ok, if your 12th century and the name is 14th then no. Makee sensee?





          Yours in Humble Service,
          Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
          "Man is not Lost!"





          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          From: jessg74@...
          Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:03:10 -0700
          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name







          Hello all,

          I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

          Thanks for your help,

          Jessica

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









          _________________________________________________________________
          Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.
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          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





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        • Jessica
          Thanks ... From: Elizabeth Walpole Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Date:
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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            Thanks

            --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...> wrote:

            From: Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...>
            Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:01 AM

















            -----Original Message-----

            From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

            Behalf Of Jessica

            Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM

            To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name



            Hello all,



            I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.

            Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name

            approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For

            example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find

            documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to

            choose that name?



            Thanks for your help,



            Jessica



            ------------ --------- --------- ------

            So long as you can document both halves of your name (given name and

            byname/surname) to the same time and place the heralds won't ask what your

            persona is. If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century

            and a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a problem, if

            you can document it them to within a few decades of one another you will

            probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100 years or more) could get

            the name rejected.

            I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Pomestnik about an earlier

            date making it OK, some names went out of fashion and stopped being used.

            Imagine in a few hundred years somebody recreating the 21st century and

            saying I can document the name Odnell to the 16th century

            (http://heraldry. sca.org/names/ english/parishes /parishes. html) therefore

            they must have used it in the 21st century too. If you can document it to

            either side of the time period you're looking at (e.g. if you want to

            document a name to the 15th century but you can find it in the 14th and 16th

            century) you could probably make a case for it having existed in the

            meantime.

            HTH

            Elizabeth

            ------------ --------- --------- --------- --

            Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont

            Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac

            http://magpiecostum er.110mb. com/




























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Coblaith Muimnech
            ... There are two separate questions here. 1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot document to the period in which your persona is
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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              Jessica wrote:
              > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I
              > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th
              > century...is it ok to choose that name?

              There are two separate questions here.


              1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot
              document to the period in which your persona is set?

              Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to
              the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do
              persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name
              will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be
              made to determine whether it matches your clothes.


              2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a
              given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as
              part of the naming pool in some other?

              Maybe, if you get lucky.

              Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the
              name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names
              are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely
              used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the
              14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a
              favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",
              and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the
              U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not
              even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",
              which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20
              last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular
              from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then
              dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and
              shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/>

              This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to
              make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer
              readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods
              than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more
              solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there
              are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and
              thousands of records from another century, none of which include that
              name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not
              the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each
              period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not
              the other because it was used in one period and not the other or
              because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in
              one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between
              those extremes.


              Coblaith Muimnech
              Barony of Bryn Gwlad
              Kingdom of Ansteorra
              <mailto:Coblaith@...>
              <http://coblaith.net>




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jessica
              You re very helpful, thank you! ... From: Coblaith Muimnech Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To:
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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                You're very helpful, thank you!

                --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:

                From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:51 AM

















                Jessica wrote:

                > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I

                > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th

                > century...is it ok to choose that name?



                There are two separate questions here.



                1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot

                document to the period in which your persona is set?



                Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to

                the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do

                persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name

                will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be

                made to determine whether it matches your clothes.



                2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a

                given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as

                part of the naming pool in some other?



                Maybe, if you get lucky.



                Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the

                name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names

                are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely

                used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the

                14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a

                favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",

                and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the

                U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not

                even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",

                which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20

                last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular

                from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then

                dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and

                shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa. gov/OACT/ babynames/>



                This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to

                make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer

                readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods

                than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more

                solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there

                are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and

                thousands of records from another century, none of which include that

                name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not

                the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each

                period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not

                the other because it was used in one period and not the other or

                because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in

                one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between

                those extremes.



                Coblaith Muimnech

                Barony of Bryn Gwlad

                Kingdom of Ansteorra

                <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>

                <http://coblaith. net>



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Coblaith Muimnech
                ... The Society s standards are a little looser than that. If a name contains name phrases that can t be documented closer than 300 years apart, it s
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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                  Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
                  > If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century and
                  > a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a
                  > problem, if you can document it them to within a few decades of one
                  > another you will probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100
                  > years or more) could get the name rejected.

                  The Society's standards are a little looser than that. If a name
                  contains name phrases that can't be documented closer than 300 years
                  apart, it's described as being "one step from period practice". (The
                  precedent was set in 1993 <http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1993/03/
                  cvr.html>. The only thing that's changed since is the terminology;
                  it used to be called "a weirdness".) Names that are two steps from
                  period practice are returned for more work.


                  Coblaith Muimnech
                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                • Sara L Uckelman
                  ... Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story is. If you check
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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                    Quoth Jessica:
                    > I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.=
                    > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name a=
                    > pproved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?=A0 For exam=
                    > ple, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find docume=
                    > ntation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choo=
                    > se that name?

                    Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters
                    is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story
                    is. If you check the box requesting that your name be made authentic
                    for a particular time period and place, the commenters will try to
                    find information that will justify the name in your desired time
                    period and place, but if they cannot, and the name is appropriate for
                    an earlier or later period, then the discrepancy won't cause any
                    problems.

                    -Aryanhwy


                    --
                    vita sine literis mors est
                    http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                  • Maria Buchanan
                    Jessica, As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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                      Jessica,
                      As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                      That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                      Maria

                      --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@...> wrote:

                      From: Jessica <jessg74@...>
                      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

















                      Hello all,



                      I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?



                      Thanks for your help,



                      Jessica



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Callahan Patrick
                      Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                        Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name having nothing to do with anything historical or authentic to any culture or any time period. I admit fully that it is not submitted and not registered, but I did not have the troubles of registering it either, and there for my research could be minimal.

                        Lost And Confused

                        Patrick Callahan






                         
                        Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                        Thursday, 4 June, 2009 8:56 PM



                        From:

                        "Maria Buchanan" <scarlettmb@...>Add sender to Contacts



                        To:
                        scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com








                        Jessica,
                        As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                        That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                        Maria

                        --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                        From: Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net>
                        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                        To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

                        Hello all,

                        I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

                        Thanks for your help,

                        Jessica

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                      • Coblaith Muimnech
                        Jessica ... To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including Elizabeth,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                          Jessica
                          >
                          > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your
                          > name approved. . .

                          Patrick Callahan wrote:
                          > Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you
                          > care to put as an SCA name on the membership form...

                          To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name
                          official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including
                          "Elizabeth, Queen of England" or "Dazzle Lips Sparklepony", because
                          it means absolutely nothing. You can also just leave it blank,
                          which is probably the best move if you haven't yet decided for sure
                          what you want your S.C.A. name to be. That way, if you've got your
                          mind made up in a month or six you can just write it in, and don't
                          have to wait for the old "Dazzle Lips" card to expire before you can
                          have one with the name you've chosen. So far as I know, the only
                          reason there'sa "known in the Society as" line on the membership
                          cards at all is because it makes it easier to communicate the correct
                          spelling to gate staff when you check in at events, to marshals
                          filling out warrant cards, etc.


                          Coblaith Muimnech
                          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                          Kingdom of Ansteorra
                          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                          <http://coblaith.net>
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