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choosing an SCA name

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  • Jessica
    Hello all, I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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      Hello all,

      I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

      Thanks for your help,

      Jessica



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • christopher chastain
      I believe if its before your date say 12th century and our 14th century then its ok, if your 12th century and the name is 14th then no. Makee sensee? Yours in
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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        I believe if its before your date say 12th century and our 14th century then its ok, if your 12th century and the name is 14th then no. Makee sensee?





        Yours in Humble Service,
        Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
        "Man is not Lost!"





        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        From: jessg74@...
        Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:03:10 -0700
        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name







        Hello all,

        I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century? For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

        Thanks for your help,

        Jessica

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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      • Elizabeth Walpole
        ... From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM To:
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Jessica
          Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name

          Hello all,

          I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.
          Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name
          approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For
          example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find
          documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to
          choose that name?

          Thanks for your help,

          Jessica

          ------------------------------------
          So long as you can document both halves of your name (given name and
          byname/surname) to the same time and place the heralds won't ask what your
          persona is. If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century
          and a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a problem, if
          you can document it them to within a few decades of one another you will
          probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100 years or more) could get
          the name rejected.
          I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Pomestnik about an earlier
          date making it OK, some names went out of fashion and stopped being used.
          Imagine in a few hundred years somebody recreating the 21st century and
          saying I can document the name Odnell to the 16th century
          (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/parishes/parishes.html) therefore
          they must have used it in the 21st century too. If you can document it to
          either side of the time period you're looking at (e.g. if you want to
          document a name to the 15th century but you can find it in the 14th and 16th
          century) you could probably make a case for it having existed in the
          meantime.
          HTH
          Elizabeth
          -----------------------------------------
          Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont
          Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
          http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/
        • Jessica
          That makes sense, thank you. ... From: christopher chastain Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: SCA New Comers
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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            That makes sense, thank you.

            --- On Thu, 6/4/09, christopher chastain <ckchastain@...> wrote:

            From: christopher chastain <ckchastain@...>
            Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
            To: "SCA New Comers" <scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 12:24 AM


            I believe if its before your date say 12th century and our 14th century then its ok, if your 12th century and the name is 14th then no. Makee sensee?





            Yours in Humble Service,
            Pomestnik Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
            "Man is not Lost!"





            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            From: jessg74@...
            Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:03:10 -0700
            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name







            Hello all,

            I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

            Thanks for your help,

            Jessica

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









            _________________________________________________________________
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            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





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          • Jessica
            Thanks ... From: Elizabeth Walpole Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Date:
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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              Thanks

              --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...> wrote:

              From: Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...>
              Subject: RE: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:01 AM

















              -----Original Message-----

              From: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com] On

              Behalf Of Jessica

              Sent: Thursday, 4 June 2009 2:03 PM

              To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name



              Hello all,



              I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.

              Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name

              approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For

              example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find

              documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to

              choose that name?



              Thanks for your help,



              Jessica



              ------------ --------- --------- ------

              So long as you can document both halves of your name (given name and

              byname/surname) to the same time and place the heralds won't ask what your

              persona is. If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century

              and a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a problem, if

              you can document it them to within a few decades of one another you will

              probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100 years or more) could get

              the name rejected.

              I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Pomestnik about an earlier

              date making it OK, some names went out of fashion and stopped being used.

              Imagine in a few hundred years somebody recreating the 21st century and

              saying I can document the name Odnell to the 16th century

              (http://heraldry. sca.org/names/ english/parishes /parishes. html) therefore

              they must have used it in the 21st century too. If you can document it to

              either side of the time period you're looking at (e.g. if you want to

              document a name to the 15th century but you can find it in the 14th and 16th

              century) you could probably make a case for it having existed in the

              meantime.

              HTH

              Elizabeth

              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --

              Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont

              Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac

              http://magpiecostum er.110mb. com/




























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Coblaith Muimnech
              ... There are two separate questions here. 1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot document to the period in which your persona is
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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                Jessica wrote:
                > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I
                > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th
                > century...is it ok to choose that name?

                There are two separate questions here.


                1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot
                document to the period in which your persona is set?

                Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to
                the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do
                persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name
                will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be
                made to determine whether it matches your clothes.


                2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a
                given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as
                part of the naming pool in some other?

                Maybe, if you get lucky.

                Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the
                name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names
                are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely
                used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the
                14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a
                favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",
                and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the
                U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not
                even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",
                which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20
                last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular
                from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then
                dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and
                shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/>

                This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to
                make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer
                readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods
                than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more
                solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there
                are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and
                thousands of records from another century, none of which include that
                name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not
                the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each
                period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not
                the other because it was used in one period and not the other or
                because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in
                one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between
                those extremes.


                Coblaith Muimnech
                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                Kingdom of Ansteorra
                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                <http://coblaith.net>




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jessica
                You re very helpful, thank you! ... From: Coblaith Muimnech Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name To:
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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                  You're very helpful, thank you!

                  --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:

                  From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:51 AM

















                  Jessica wrote:

                  > . . .if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I

                  > find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th

                  > century...is it ok to choose that name?



                  There are two separate questions here.



                  1) Can you register with the College of Arms a name that you cannot

                  document to the period in which your persona is set?



                  Yes. Whether the name and/or armory you submit are appropriate to

                  the persona you usually play (and, indeed, whether you even do

                  persona play) is irrelevant to the registration process. The name

                  will be evaluated for internal consistency, but no effort will be

                  made to determine whether it matches your clothes.



                  2) Can you put together a name that might plausibly been used in a

                  given period by selecting elements that your documentation shows as

                  part of the naming pool in some other?



                  Maybe, if you get lucky.



                  Names come in and out of fashion. New names are introduced to the

                  name pool, and old ones are dropped from it. Sometimes, old names

                  are re-introduced and become popular again. A name that was widely

                  used in the 12th century might have been completely unknown by the

                  14th, and one that had never been heard in the 14th might have been a

                  favorite a century later. Consider "Ethel", "Mildred", "Florence",

                  and "Edna", all among the 20 most popular names for girls born in the

                  U.S. in 1808 for whom Social Security numbers were issued and not

                  even in the top 1000 in 2008, or "Madison", "Alyssa", and "Alexis",

                  which weren't in the top 1000 a century ago and were among the top 20

                  last year. And then there's "Chloe", which was moderately popular

                  from the beginning of the century 'til about World War II, then

                  dropped out of the top thousand for 40 years before reappearing and

                  shooting up to the top 10. <http://www.ssa. gov/OACT/ babynames/>



                  This is another of those (many) situations in which you'll have to

                  make your own determination as to what's good enough. We have fewer

                  readily available sources of information on some cultures and periods

                  than others, and the more complete the record is, naturally, the more

                  solid are the conclusions we can draw based on that record. If there

                  are thousands of records with a given name in it from one century and

                  thousands of records from another century, none of which include that

                  name, it's pretty evident that the name belongs to the former and not

                  the latter. If only a handful of names are recorded from each

                  period, it's impossible to say whether a name is on one list and not

                  the other because it was used in one period and not the other or

                  because it just happened to be among the half dozen written down in

                  one and not the other. Most places and times fall somewhere between

                  those extremes.



                  Coblaith Muimnech

                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad

                  Kingdom of Ansteorra

                  <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>

                  <http://coblaith. net>



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Coblaith Muimnech
                  ... The Society s standards are a little looser than that. If a name contains name phrases that can t be documented closer than 300 years apart, it s
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 3, 2009
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                    Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
                    > If you decided that you want a first name from the 14th century and
                    > a surname from the 15th century there could potentially be a
                    > problem, if you can document it them to within a few decades of one
                    > another you will probably be OK but a large gap in date (e.g. 100
                    > years or more) could get the name rejected.

                    The Society's standards are a little looser than that. If a name
                    contains name phrases that can't be documented closer than 300 years
                    apart, it's described as being "one step from period practice". (The
                    precedent was set in 1993 <http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1993/03/
                    cvr.html>. The only thing that's changed since is the terminology;
                    it used to be called "a weirdness".) Names that are two steps from
                    period practice are returned for more work.


                    Coblaith Muimnech
                    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                    Kingdom of Ansteorra
                    <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                  • Sara L Uckelman
                    ... Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story is. If you check
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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                      Quoth Jessica:
                      > I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question.=
                      > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name a=
                      > pproved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?=A0 For exam=
                      > ple, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find docume=
                      > ntation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choo=
                      > se that name?

                      Yes. When you submit your name for registration, all that matters
                      is the documentation that you have, and not what your persona story
                      is. If you check the box requesting that your name be made authentic
                      for a particular time period and place, the commenters will try to
                      find information that will justify the name in your desired time
                      period and place, but if they cannot, and the name is appropriate for
                      an earlier or later period, then the discrepancy won't cause any
                      problems.

                      -Aryanhwy


                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    • Maria Buchanan
                      Jessica, As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 4, 2009
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                        Jessica,
                        As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                        That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                        Maria

                        --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@...> wrote:

                        From: Jessica <jessg74@...>
                        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

















                        Hello all,



                        I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?



                        Thanks for your help,



                        Jessica



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Callahan Patrick
                        Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                          Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you care to put as an SCA name on the membership form... I am there by Kreyze Padreyk. A name having nothing to do with anything historical or authentic to any culture or any time period. I admit fully that it is not submitted and not registered, but I did not have the troubles of registering it either, and there for my research could be minimal.

                          Lost And Confused

                          Patrick Callahan






                           
                          Re: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                          Thursday, 4 June, 2009 8:56 PM



                          From:

                          "Maria Buchanan" <scarlettmb@...>Add sender to Contacts



                          To:
                          scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com








                          Jessica,
                          As far as I know, you have to show documentation from at least close to the time period.  EG - if you want a late 15th C persona and the documentation you find on the name you want is from the early 16th C it's usually ok.  However, if you're talking about a 14th C Irish persona and the name is documented in 12th c that's a little too much time between them. 
                          That was the information I had at least.  I'm not a herald.
                          Maria

                          --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                          From: Jessica <jessg74@sbcglobal. net>
                          Subject: [SCA Newcomers] choosing an SCA name
                          To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 11:03 PM

                          Hello all,

                          I understand I have plenty of time to choose a name, but I have a question. Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your name approved, is it okay to show documentation from another century?  For example, if I want my persona to be from 14th century Ireland and I find documentation that a name was used in the 12th or 15th century...is it ok to choose that name?

                          Thanks for your help,

                          Jessica

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                        • Coblaith Muimnech
                          Jessica ... To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including Elizabeth,
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 7, 2009
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                            Jessica
                            >
                            > Since you must be able to provide proper documentation to have your
                            > name approved. . .

                            Patrick Callahan wrote:
                            > Just make up a name they will print anything on your card that you
                            > care to put as an SCA name on the membership form...

                            To clarify, having it on your membership card in no way makes a name
                            official. You can, indeed, have anything printed there, including
                            "Elizabeth, Queen of England" or "Dazzle Lips Sparklepony", because
                            it means absolutely nothing. You can also just leave it blank,
                            which is probably the best move if you haven't yet decided for sure
                            what you want your S.C.A. name to be. That way, if you've got your
                            mind made up in a month or six you can just write it in, and don't
                            have to wait for the old "Dazzle Lips" card to expire before you can
                            have one with the name you've chosen. So far as I know, the only
                            reason there'sa "known in the Society as" line on the membership
                            cards at all is because it makes it easier to communicate the correct
                            spelling to gate staff when you check in at events, to marshals
                            filling out warrant cards, etc.


                            Coblaith Muimnech
                            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                            Kingdom of Ansteorra
                            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                            <http://coblaith.net>
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