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Re: [SCA Newcomers] historic names (was: Just Introducing Myself)

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  • Sara L Uckelman
    ... None at all! In fact, a lot of people I know select elements from their own family history and ancestors when developing their names and personas. (For
    Message 1 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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      Quoth "Robert Bohler":
      > unless of course there's a rule against emmulating one's own family history.

      None at all! In fact, a lot of people I know select elements
      from their own family history and ancestors when developing
      their names and personas. (For example, my mom took the given
      name of one grandmother and the surname of another, and ended
      up with a lovely 14th C German name as a result.)

      -Aryanhwy


      --
      vita sine literis mors est
      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
    • Labhaoise O'Beachain
      The problem arising when.... Your name is Luther, and you are, yes, direct decent from Martin, yeah that Martin. Even if YOUR name is Martin Luther the XIII,
      Message 2 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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        The problem arising when....

        Your name is Luther, and you are, yes, direct decent from Martin, yeah that Martin.

        Even if YOUR name is Martin Luther the XIII, you CANNOT use Martin Luther..... too well known.....

        Now if you wish to use only Martin, or only Luther, conjoiined with some other period name( family members included) AND they are NOT well known, then you can certainly use THAT name....
        Labhaoise

        Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
        >
        > Quoth "Robert Bohler":
        > > unless of course there's a rule against emmulating one's own family history.
        >
        > None at all! In fact, a lot of people I know select elements
        > from their own family history and ancestors when developing
        > their names and personas. (For example, my mom took the given
        > name of one grandmother and the surname of another, and ended
        > up with a lovely 14th C German name as a result.)
        >
        > -Aryanhwy
        >
        >
        > --
        > vita sine literis mors est
        > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
        >
      • Coblaith Muimnech
        ... As long as you can document its use before 1600, in a place and at a time compatible with the given name you ve chosen, there s no reason you couldn t
        Message 3 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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          Robert wrote:
          > I've found many other variants of my own last name BOHLER while
          > doing a search for my family history and coat of arms. These
          > include : Bohlen, Boehlen, Boelen, Buehlens, Boehlers etc.... I
          > assume any of those would be acceptable, unless of course there's a
          > rule against emmulating one's own family history.

          As long as you can document its use before 1600, in a place and at a
          time compatible with the given name you've chosen, there's no reason
          you couldn't register one of them.

          I don't know whether they are etymologically related to any of the
          names you mentioned, but I can point you to evidence of:

          "Boller" in Rottweil in 1441 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
          german/rottweilsur.html>,

          "Boler" in 1495, somewhere in Germany <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          names/german/surnames1495a-g.html>, and

          "Boland" in Nürnberg in 1497 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
          german/surnamesnurna-m.html>.


          Coblaith Muimnech
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
          <http://coblaith.net>
        • Robert Bohler
          Just doing some reading up on names. Apparently surnames didn t really come into common usage until after the 14th century, so I don t really need to select a
          Message 4 of 10 , May 11, 2009
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            Just doing some reading up on names. Apparently surnames didn't really come into common usage until after the 14th century, so I don't really need to select a surname at all do I? I could therefore choose a common first name, such as Ulrich, or Uther, and then adopt then addendum "of Greyfells" for example. I could be way off the mark were, but bear with me, I'm new at this.....


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Coblaith Muimnech
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:24 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] historic names





            Robert wrote:
            > I've found many other variants of my own last name BOHLER while
            > doing a search for my family history and coat of arms. These
            > include : Bohlen, Boehlen, Boelen, Buehlens, Boehlers etc.... I
            > assume any of those would be acceptable, unless of course there's a
            > rule against emmulating one's own family history.

            As long as you can document its use before 1600, in a place and at a
            time compatible with the given name you've chosen, there's no reason
            you couldn't register one of them.

            I don't know whether they are etymologically related to any of the
            names you mentioned, but I can point you to evidence of:

            "Boller" in Rottweil in 1441 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
            german/rottweilsur.html>,

            "Boler" in 1495, somewhere in Germany <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            names/german/surnames1495a-g.html>, and

            "Boland" in Nürnberg in 1497 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
            german/surnamesnurna-m.html>.

            Coblaith Muimnech
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
            <http://coblaith.net>





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... Here s a case where it s good to be precise about terminology. In most contexts, the term surname refers to surnames as they are used nowadays -- fixed,
            Message 5 of 10 , May 11, 2009
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              Quoth "Robert Bohler":
              > Just doing some reading up on names. Apparently surnames didn't really com=
              > e into common usage until after the 14th century, so I don't really need to=
              > select a surname at all do I?

              Here's a case where it's good to be precise about terminology.
              In most contexts, the term 'surname' refers to surnames as they
              are used nowadays -- fixed, inherited labels which do not generally
              change from context to context. The wider, more general term is
              'byname'. A byname is a type of descriptive which modifies a given
              name, used to differentiate people with the same given name. In the
              post-Roman world, bynames were rare in the early Middle Ages, but
              by the 11th century they are commonplace in pretty much all European
              cultures. These bynames were originally literal descriptives, e.g.,
              "the Smith", "of London", "fat", "John's". Because they were generallly
              literal descriptives of the person in question, they were not
              generally inherited. However, they did develop into inherited surnames
              over the course of our period; when this happened varied across
              Europe (and it hadn't happened by the end of the SCA's period in some
              cultures, such as Gaelic Ireland and Scotland, and Dutch-speakers in
              the Low Countries). Inherited surnames were certainly in use in
              the 15th C in Germany; I've seen many examples of sons having the
              same byname as their father, and also wives and daughters using a
              modified form of their husband's or father's byname (usually a feminine
              form, but sometimes a possessive form). I would not be surprised at
              all to see this custom in the 14th C in Germany, especially in urban
              areas. Earlier than that, bynames were probably still generally
              literal descriptives.

              So while you're right that a German person living before the 14th C
              probably wouldn't have had a surname in the sense of a fixed label
              that he inherited from his father and would bequeath to his sons,
              but he would more likely than not have had a byname, a literal
              descriptive which could vary from context to context (e.g., Ulrich
              could be <Ulrich Hans> in the context of his father's will,
              indicating that his father's name was Hans, or <Ulrich Schmitt>
              in the context of the taxation of the members of the guilds of the
              city, or <Ulrich Esel> 'Ulrich the donkey' among his friends.)

              -Aryanhwy


              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            • Coblaith Muimnech
              ... It is possible to *register* a name consisting of a period given name and a locative byname constructed from the name of an S.C.A. branch. But such a name
              Message 6 of 10 , May 11, 2009
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                Robert Bohler wrote:
                > . . .I don't really need to select a surname at all do I? I could
                > therefore choose a common first name, such as Ulrich, or Uther, and
                > then adopt then addendum "of Greyfells" for example.


                It is possible to *register* a name consisting of a period given name
                and a locative byname constructed from the name of an S.C.A. branch.
                But such a name will very rarely be historically plausible.

                If you're at all interested in creating a fully fleshed-out persona
                (and some people aren't, and that's O.K.), you'll want to give him a
                name that somebody living in your period of interest might really
                have used. And even if you aren't really interested in persona play,
                if you want the things you make or do in the S.C.A. to have firm
                historic foundations, you will probably find yourself, after a while,
                wanting a realistic medieval or Renaissance name to go with them.
                Constructing such a name really isn't difficult. You could just
                decide where and when you'd like to "be from", find a list of names
                from that place and time, and pick a given name and a byname or
                surname from the list. If you want a German name, the Medieval Names
                Archive's guide to German names <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
                german.shtml> is a good place to start. Several variants of "Ulrich"
                are found in the article "German Names from Nürnberg, 1497" <http://
                www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/nurnberg1497.html>, for
                instance. So if you want "Ulrich" or something like it and want a
                realistic late-15th-century High German name, all you have to do is
                choose one from the extensive list of surnames in that article. It's
                a 30-second process.


                By the way, "Uther" wasn't a common name in period, and isn't
                German. It's a literary name found in Sir Thomas Malory's "Le Morte
                d'Arthur". It can be registered (with an appropriate byname) because
                there is evidence of English and French parents giving their children
                names out of Arthurian legend in certain places at certain times in
                period <http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents/
                CompiledNamePrecedents/MythicalAndLiteraryNames.html#Uther>. But if
                you're looking to create a German name, it's not the best choice.



                Coblaith Muimnech
                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                Kingdom of Ansteorra
                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                <http://coblaith.net>
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