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Just Introducing Myself

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  • Robert Bohler
    Hello, My name is Robert Bohler, and I m very new to SCA. Although not a full member yet, I ve been doing some research into persona names, and begun work on
    Message 1 of 10 , May 9, 2009
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      Hello,

      My name is Robert Bohler, and I'm very new to SCA. Although not a full member yet, I've been doing some research into persona names, and begun work on assembling appropriate garb.

      As for my persona name, I shall probably adopt the pseudonym "Ulrich von Bohlen", as I discovered exactly that person while researching my own ancestry. He was a knight of the second crusade, hailing from Austria.

      Something I do need help with is contacting my local SCA group. I live in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. Apparently there is a group here which I've tried to contact several times via email, with no reply. Does anyone know whether or not this group is still active?

      More later....

      Robert
    • tudorpot@gmail.com
      Hi there, I m in Petrea Thule- Peterborough. Have you been to the Ealdomere page? I attended an event in Kingston a month or so ago. Here are links to the
      Message 2 of 10 , May 9, 2009
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        Hi there,
        I'm in Petrea Thule- Peterborough. Have you been to the Ealdomere page?
        I attended an event in Kingston a month or so ago. Here are links to the
        local barony and the canton- Greyfells.
        It is not allowed to take the name of a real person in history- some
        variation on the name is allowed. A herald will be able to help you.

        http://skraeling.sca.org/

        http://ealdormere.ca/greyfells/


        Theodora

        Robert Bohler wrote:
        > Hello,
        >
        > My name is Robert Bohler, and I'm very new to SCA. Although not a full member yet, I've been doing some research into persona names, and begun work on assembling appropriate garb.
        >
        > As for my persona name, I shall probably adopt the pseudonym "Ulrich von Bohlen", as I discovered exactly that person while researching my own ancestry. He was a knight of the second crusade, hailing from Austria.
        >
        > Something I do need help with is contacting my local SCA group. I live in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. Apparently there is a group here which I've tried to contact several times via email, with no reply. Does anyone know whether or not this group is still active?
        >
        > More later....
        >
        > Robert
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Coblaith Muimnech
        ... You cannot purport to *be* a specific individual other than yourself, but it is acceptable for your persona name to be the same as the name of one or more
        Message 3 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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          Robert wrote:
          > As for my persona name, I shall probably adopt the pseudonym
          > "Ulrich von Bohlen", as I discovered exactly that person while
          > researching my own ancestry. He was a knight of the second
          > crusade, hailing from Austria.

          Theodora responded:
          > It is not allowed to take the name of a real person in history-
          > some variation on the name is allowed. A herald will be able to
          > help you.


          You cannot purport to *be* a specific individual other than yourself,
          but it is acceptable for your persona name to be the same as the name
          of one or more individuals who lived before 1600. In much of Europe
          for much of the S.C.A.'s core period pools of given names and types
          of bynames were very limited, so many, many complete names were used
          over and over again. It would make little sense for the College of
          Arms to say, "There was a real man in the Middle Ages named 'John
          Clerk', so even though 'John' was a common given name and 'Clerk' a
          common byname in that and other periods, no member of the S.C.A. can
          ever be 'John Clerk'." After all, there were at least three men
          named "John Clerk" just in Colchester between 1350 and 1373 <http://
          users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/m_intro.html>. One more would hardly
          have been noticed.

          The only time the fact that a name can be documented in its entirety
          is a problem is when it is uniquely associated in the modern mind
          with a particular person. Italy has produced many men named
          "Leonardo", for instance, and many men have been born in Vinci, but a
          certain one will leap to mind any time anyone says, "I'm Leonardo da
          Vinci". That name is, therefore, protected. Whether the Austrian
          knight to whom you refer is significant enough, historically,to have
          the same measure taken with his name is something the sovereigns at
          arms would ultimately decide if you submitted it.

          Of course, any name you wish to register must be submitted with
          evidence that it complies with all the Rules for Submissions <http://
          heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html>. That includes evidence
          that each name phrase ("Ulrich" and "von Bohlen", in this case) is in
          a form consistent with those used somewhere, at some time, in our
          period. A history book telling us that there once lived a man who is
          modernly known as "Ulrich von Bohlen" will not suffice. Such books
          are written for modern readers, and names in them are modernized and
          (if written in English) often Anglicized for the comfort of those
          readers. They don't tell us what the names looked and sounded like
          hundreds of years ago.

          It shouldn't be difficult to document a form of "Ulrich" appropriate
          to the period that interests you. It was a fairly common name in the
          Middle Ages and Renaissance. (In just a few minutes I found evidence
          of the spelling you used in Bavaria before 1240 <http://www.s-
          gabriel.org/names/talan/Early_German_Bynames.html> and in Silesia in
          the 13th and 14th centuries <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/
          bahlow/bahlowMasc.html>.) A good consulting herald with access to
          the right books could probably help you document it--or at least
          something very similar--to whatever century you like.

          You might have more trouble with "von Bohlen". The issue isn't
          proving the place existed in period, but that the place-name did (or
          can be justified as a plausible variant of one that did). I can't
          tell you what the name was for Bohlen in the period from which you'd
          like your name to be, but you will need to find out. Again, a good
          consulting herald should be able to help.

          Robert also wrote:
          > Something I do need help with is contacting my local SCA group. I
          > live in Kingston, Ontario, Canada.


          Contact your Kingdom Chatelaine <http://ealdormere.ca/Officers.htm>.
          Helping prospective members find their local groups is part of his
          duties. He should be able to put you in direct contact with someone
          from the nearest active branch.

          In the mean time, if you want help with your name I recommend you e-
          mail the Afon Fawr Herald <http://ecoh.wolfium.com/college.htm>.
          He's listed on the Ealdormere College of Heralds' website as being
          responsible for name research. He should either assist you himself
          or put you in touch with someone in your area who has the right
          resources to do so.


          Coblaith Muimnech
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
          <http://coblaith.net>
        • Robert Bohler
          Hello Ah, I see. So I can acceptably adopt the name Ulrich ( no worries there) as its a common name for the period. I ve found many other variants of my own
          Message 4 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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            Hello

            Ah, I see. So I can acceptably adopt the name Ulrich ( no worries there) as its a common name for the period.
            I've found many other variants of my own last name BOHLER while doing a search for my family history and coat of arms. These include : Bohlen, Boehlen, Boelen, Buehlens, Boehlers etc.... I assume any of those would be acceptable, unless of course there's a rule against emmulating one's own family history.

            As for contacting my Kingdom Chatelaine, and local senechal I've tried several times to make contact, with no reply. Perhaps my messages are being filtered out as spam and not getting through, but I will keep trying.

            Thanks for your help and advice.
            Robert

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Coblaith Muimnech
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:12 AM
            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] historic names (was: Just Introducing Myself)





            Robert wrote:
            > As for my persona name, I shall probably adopt the pseudonym
            > "Ulrich von Bohlen", as I discovered exactly that person while
            > researching my own ancestry. He was a knight of the second
            > crusade, hailing from Austria.

            Theodora responded:
            > It is not allowed to take the name of a real person in history-
            > some variation on the name is allowed. A herald will be able to
            > help you.

            You cannot purport to *be* a specific individual other than yourself,
            but it is acceptable for your persona name to be the same as the name
            of one or more individuals who lived before 1600. In much of Europe
            for much of the S.C.A.'s core period pools of given names and types
            of bynames were very limited, so many, many complete names were used
            over and over again. It would make little sense for the College of
            Arms to say, "There was a real man in the Middle Ages named 'John
            Clerk', so even though 'John' was a common given name and 'Clerk' a
            common byname in that and other periods, no member of the S.C.A. can
            ever be 'John Clerk'." After all, there were at least three men
            named "John Clerk" just in Colchester between 1350 and 1373 <http://
            users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/m_intro.html>. One more would hardly
            have been noticed.

            The only time the fact that a name can be documented in its entirety
            is a problem is when it is uniquely associated in the modern mind
            with a particular person. Italy has produced many men named
            "Leonardo", for instance, and many men have been born in Vinci, but a
            certain one will leap to mind any time anyone says, "I'm Leonardo da
            Vinci". That name is, therefore, protected. Whether the Austrian
            knight to whom you refer is significant enough, historically,to have
            the same measure taken with his name is something the sovereigns at
            arms would ultimately decide if you submitted it.

            Of course, any name you wish to register must be submitted with
            evidence that it complies with all the Rules for Submissions <http://
            heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html>. That includes evidence
            that each name phrase ("Ulrich" and "von Bohlen", in this case) is in
            a form consistent with those used somewhere, at some time, in our
            period. A history book telling us that there once lived a man who is
            modernly known as "Ulrich von Bohlen" will not suffice. Such books
            are written for modern readers, and names in them are modernized and
            (if written in English) often Anglicized for the comfort of those
            readers. They don't tell us what the names looked and sounded like
            hundreds of years ago.

            It shouldn't be difficult to document a form of "Ulrich" appropriate
            to the period that interests you. It was a fairly common name in the
            Middle Ages and Renaissance. (In just a few minutes I found evidence
            of the spelling you used in Bavaria before 1240 <http://www.s-
            gabriel.org/names/talan/Early_German_Bynames.html> and in Silesia in
            the 13th and 14th centuries <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/
            bahlow/bahlowMasc.html>.) A good consulting herald with access to
            the right books could probably help you document it--or at least
            something very similar--to whatever century you like.

            You might have more trouble with "von Bohlen". The issue isn't
            proving the place existed in period, but that the place-name did (or
            can be justified as a plausible variant of one that did). I can't
            tell you what the name was for Bohlen in the period from which you'd
            like your name to be, but you will need to find out. Again, a good
            consulting herald should be able to help.

            Robert also wrote:
            > Something I do need help with is contacting my local SCA group. I
            > live in Kingston, Ontario, Canada.

            Contact your Kingdom Chatelaine <http://ealdormere.ca/Officers.htm>.
            Helping prospective members find their local groups is part of his
            duties. He should be able to put you in direct contact with someone
            from the nearest active branch.

            In the mean time, if you want help with your name I recommend you e-
            mail the Afon Fawr Herald <http://ecoh.wolfium.com/college.htm>.
            He's listed on the Ealdormere College of Heralds' website as being
            responsible for name research. He should either assist you himself
            or put you in touch with someone in your area who has the right
            resources to do so.

            Coblaith Muimnech
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
            <http://coblaith.net>





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... None at all! In fact, a lot of people I know select elements from their own family history and ancestors when developing their names and personas. (For
            Message 5 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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              Quoth "Robert Bohler":
              > unless of course there's a rule against emmulating one's own family history.

              None at all! In fact, a lot of people I know select elements
              from their own family history and ancestors when developing
              their names and personas. (For example, my mom took the given
              name of one grandmother and the surname of another, and ended
              up with a lovely 14th C German name as a result.)

              -Aryanhwy


              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            • Labhaoise O'Beachain
              The problem arising when.... Your name is Luther, and you are, yes, direct decent from Martin, yeah that Martin. Even if YOUR name is Martin Luther the XIII,
              Message 6 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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                The problem arising when....

                Your name is Luther, and you are, yes, direct decent from Martin, yeah that Martin.

                Even if YOUR name is Martin Luther the XIII, you CANNOT use Martin Luther..... too well known.....

                Now if you wish to use only Martin, or only Luther, conjoiined with some other period name( family members included) AND they are NOT well known, then you can certainly use THAT name....
                Labhaoise

                Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                >
                > Quoth "Robert Bohler":
                > > unless of course there's a rule against emmulating one's own family history.
                >
                > None at all! In fact, a lot of people I know select elements
                > from their own family history and ancestors when developing
                > their names and personas. (For example, my mom took the given
                > name of one grandmother and the surname of another, and ended
                > up with a lovely 14th C German name as a result.)
                >
                > -Aryanhwy
                >
                >
                > --
                > vita sine literis mors est
                > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                >
              • Coblaith Muimnech
                ... As long as you can document its use before 1600, in a place and at a time compatible with the given name you ve chosen, there s no reason you couldn t
                Message 7 of 10 , May 10, 2009
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                  Robert wrote:
                  > I've found many other variants of my own last name BOHLER while
                  > doing a search for my family history and coat of arms. These
                  > include : Bohlen, Boehlen, Boelen, Buehlens, Boehlers etc.... I
                  > assume any of those would be acceptable, unless of course there's a
                  > rule against emmulating one's own family history.

                  As long as you can document its use before 1600, in a place and at a
                  time compatible with the given name you've chosen, there's no reason
                  you couldn't register one of them.

                  I don't know whether they are etymologically related to any of the
                  names you mentioned, but I can point you to evidence of:

                  "Boller" in Rottweil in 1441 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
                  german/rottweilsur.html>,

                  "Boler" in 1495, somewhere in Germany <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                  names/german/surnames1495a-g.html>, and

                  "Boland" in Nürnberg in 1497 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
                  german/surnamesnurna-m.html>.


                  Coblaith Muimnech
                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                  <http://coblaith.net>
                • Robert Bohler
                  Just doing some reading up on names. Apparently surnames didn t really come into common usage until after the 14th century, so I don t really need to select a
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 11, 2009
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                    Just doing some reading up on names. Apparently surnames didn't really come into common usage until after the 14th century, so I don't really need to select a surname at all do I? I could therefore choose a common first name, such as Ulrich, or Uther, and then adopt then addendum "of Greyfells" for example. I could be way off the mark were, but bear with me, I'm new at this.....


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Coblaith Muimnech
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:24 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] historic names





                    Robert wrote:
                    > I've found many other variants of my own last name BOHLER while
                    > doing a search for my family history and coat of arms. These
                    > include : Bohlen, Boehlen, Boelen, Buehlens, Boehlers etc.... I
                    > assume any of those would be acceptable, unless of course there's a
                    > rule against emmulating one's own family history.

                    As long as you can document its use before 1600, in a place and at a
                    time compatible with the given name you've chosen, there's no reason
                    you couldn't register one of them.

                    I don't know whether they are etymologically related to any of the
                    names you mentioned, but I can point you to evidence of:

                    "Boller" in Rottweil in 1441 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
                    german/rottweilsur.html>,

                    "Boler" in 1495, somewhere in Germany <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    names/german/surnames1495a-g.html>, and

                    "Boland" in Nürnberg in 1497 <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/
                    german/surnamesnurna-m.html>.

                    Coblaith Muimnech
                    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                    Kingdom of Ansteorra
                    <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                    <http://coblaith.net>





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sara L Uckelman
                    ... Here s a case where it s good to be precise about terminology. In most contexts, the term surname refers to surnames as they are used nowadays -- fixed,
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 11, 2009
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                      Quoth "Robert Bohler":
                      > Just doing some reading up on names. Apparently surnames didn't really com=
                      > e into common usage until after the 14th century, so I don't really need to=
                      > select a surname at all do I?

                      Here's a case where it's good to be precise about terminology.
                      In most contexts, the term 'surname' refers to surnames as they
                      are used nowadays -- fixed, inherited labels which do not generally
                      change from context to context. The wider, more general term is
                      'byname'. A byname is a type of descriptive which modifies a given
                      name, used to differentiate people with the same given name. In the
                      post-Roman world, bynames were rare in the early Middle Ages, but
                      by the 11th century they are commonplace in pretty much all European
                      cultures. These bynames were originally literal descriptives, e.g.,
                      "the Smith", "of London", "fat", "John's". Because they were generallly
                      literal descriptives of the person in question, they were not
                      generally inherited. However, they did develop into inherited surnames
                      over the course of our period; when this happened varied across
                      Europe (and it hadn't happened by the end of the SCA's period in some
                      cultures, such as Gaelic Ireland and Scotland, and Dutch-speakers in
                      the Low Countries). Inherited surnames were certainly in use in
                      the 15th C in Germany; I've seen many examples of sons having the
                      same byname as their father, and also wives and daughters using a
                      modified form of their husband's or father's byname (usually a feminine
                      form, but sometimes a possessive form). I would not be surprised at
                      all to see this custom in the 14th C in Germany, especially in urban
                      areas. Earlier than that, bynames were probably still generally
                      literal descriptives.

                      So while you're right that a German person living before the 14th C
                      probably wouldn't have had a surname in the sense of a fixed label
                      that he inherited from his father and would bequeath to his sons,
                      but he would more likely than not have had a byname, a literal
                      descriptive which could vary from context to context (e.g., Ulrich
                      could be <Ulrich Hans> in the context of his father's will,
                      indicating that his father's name was Hans, or <Ulrich Schmitt>
                      in the context of the taxation of the members of the guilds of the
                      city, or <Ulrich Esel> 'Ulrich the donkey' among his friends.)

                      -Aryanhwy


                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    • Coblaith Muimnech
                      ... It is possible to *register* a name consisting of a period given name and a locative byname constructed from the name of an S.C.A. branch. But such a name
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 11, 2009
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                        Robert Bohler wrote:
                        > . . .I don't really need to select a surname at all do I? I could
                        > therefore choose a common first name, such as Ulrich, or Uther, and
                        > then adopt then addendum "of Greyfells" for example.


                        It is possible to *register* a name consisting of a period given name
                        and a locative byname constructed from the name of an S.C.A. branch.
                        But such a name will very rarely be historically plausible.

                        If you're at all interested in creating a fully fleshed-out persona
                        (and some people aren't, and that's O.K.), you'll want to give him a
                        name that somebody living in your period of interest might really
                        have used. And even if you aren't really interested in persona play,
                        if you want the things you make or do in the S.C.A. to have firm
                        historic foundations, you will probably find yourself, after a while,
                        wanting a realistic medieval or Renaissance name to go with them.
                        Constructing such a name really isn't difficult. You could just
                        decide where and when you'd like to "be from", find a list of names
                        from that place and time, and pick a given name and a byname or
                        surname from the list. If you want a German name, the Medieval Names
                        Archive's guide to German names <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
                        german.shtml> is a good place to start. Several variants of "Ulrich"
                        are found in the article "German Names from Nürnberg, 1497" <http://
                        www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/nurnberg1497.html>, for
                        instance. So if you want "Ulrich" or something like it and want a
                        realistic late-15th-century High German name, all you have to do is
                        choose one from the extensive list of surnames in that article. It's
                        a 30-second process.


                        By the way, "Uther" wasn't a common name in period, and isn't
                        German. It's a literary name found in Sir Thomas Malory's "Le Morte
                        d'Arthur". It can be registered (with an appropriate byname) because
                        there is evidence of English and French parents giving their children
                        names out of Arthurian legend in certain places at certain times in
                        period <http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents/
                        CompiledNamePrecedents/MythicalAndLiteraryNames.html#Uther>. But if
                        you're looking to create a German name, it's not the best choice.



                        Coblaith Muimnech
                        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                        Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                        <http://coblaith.net>
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