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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names

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  • Coblaith Muimnech
    ... Now would I make up an example with all the lovely real names in the Medieval Names Archive? 15th Century Italian Men s Names
    Message 1 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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      I wrote:
      > "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro"

      Aryanhwy asked:
      > Do you know of examples of bynames like <di Silvestri>?

      Now would I make up an example with all the lovely real names in the
      Medieval Names Archive?

      "15th Century Italian Men's Names" <http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/
      italian15m.html> mentions one Boetio di Silvestri who was a doctor or
      scholar lecturing at the university of Ferrara in 1473 and/or 1474.


      Coblaith Muimnech
      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
      Kingdom of Ansteorra
      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      <http://coblaith.net>
    • Sara L Uckelman
      ... Thanks for the citation. As the discussion notes, the usage of the prepositions in this set of names is abberent: It s noticeable that da is the normal
      Message 2 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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        Quoth Coblaith Muimnech:
        > I wrote:
        > > "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro"
        >
        > Aryanhwy asked:
        > > Do you know of examples of bynames like <di Silvestri>?
        >
        > "15th Century Italian Men's Names" <http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/
        > italian15m.html> mentions one Boetio di Silvestri who was a doctor or
        > scholar lecturing at the university of Ferrara in 1473 and/or 1474.

        Thanks for the citation. As the discussion notes, the usage of
        the prepositions in this set of names is abberent:

        "It's noticeable that da is the normal locative pronoun, but see also
        the names Ruberto di Girardin da Lendenara and Nicol�� de Girardin de
        Lendenara: here we see normal Italian usage in the first name and
        substitution of de for *both* prepositions in the second. In de
        Bertolin, de Vi(n)cenzi, de Gilino, and de Marcho Galeotto the
        preposition is probably patronymic, but de Piamonti is probably a
        locative 'of Piemonte'. If the final a can be trusted, de Argentina is
        probably metronymic. The name di Paxiti is clearly patronymic; the
        source is a diminutive of the name Pace, from Latin pax 'peace'. The
        name di Zirondi is more difficult to interpret. In this dialect Zirondi
        should be from Gironde, the name of a French province. It appears that
        either di is being used here with locative sense, or this is a
        patronymic based on a byname."

        So I would not take this data as typical or base any generalizations
        on it.

        -Aryanhwy



        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      • Labhaoise O'Beachain
        Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....
        Message 3 of 28 , May 10, 2009
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          Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....


          Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
          >
          > They are different versions of "of". The short guide is:
          >
          > <da> is the "of" that is used with place names, e.g., <da Palermo>
          > is "of Palermo".
          > <di> is the "of" that is used with personal names to create a
          > patronymic byname (i.e., one that says who your father was), e.g.,
          > <di Giovanni> is "[child] of Giovanni".
          >
          > <de> is not Italian; it's the Latin preposition for "of", and
          > when an Italian name is rendered in Latin, then it is used for
          > both <da> and <di>.
          >
          > In general men and women used the same types of bynames in Italian --
          > locative bynames (formed by <da> + <city name>), patronymic bynames
          > (formed by <di> + <father's name), and family names (a catch all
          > category for everything else). Locative and patronymic bynames
          > do not have different forms for men and women. Some family names
          > do, but most do not, so it's a case-by-case basis thing for them.
          >
          > -Aryanhwy
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > vita sine literis mors est
          > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          >
        • Sara L Uckelman
          ... The preposition is also used in matronymic bynames (i.e., ones indicating the bearer s mother s given name). -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est
          Message 4 of 28 , May 10, 2009
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            Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
            > Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....

            The preposition <di> is also used in matronymic bynames (i.e.,
            ones indicating the bearer's mother's given name).

            -Aryanhwy


            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          • Maria Buchanan
            I didn t document the da versus di.  I tried to register Maria di Modena at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman s name.  I
            Message 5 of 28 , May 10, 2009
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              I didn't document the da versus di.  I tried to register Maria di Modena at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's name.  I was actually VERY confused about that at the time, because I had found women's names with di and couldn't figure out why they said that, but I also figured they knew more than me so I just took their word for that.  And I'm in Ansteorra so you'd have to ask the heralds who sent the name back after my local herald sent it in.  This happened way back in 1998 so I don't even know who they were. 

              As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes the place if the i for some strange reason.  I can't figure out why.  But I've read the Medici names both ways - with dei and with de'.  I don't know the reasons, but since I have researched the Medici family VERY thouroughly (and have the name on my personal family tree) I happen to know that I'm right about the dei/de' thing.

              If I'm wrong, I'm glad you pointed it out.  I was just passing on the information that I got way back when.
              Maria

              --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:
              From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 5:38 PM

















              Kristen wrote:

              >

              > I have a quick question about Italian names.. . .I'm a little

              > confused about the uses of di, da, and de. Do these show that a

              > surname is masculine and feminine? Or are they different versions

              > of "of"?



              Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici wrote:

              > You use da for women. If you're doing a name like Maria of

              > Florence, it would be Maria da Firenze.. . .The di is used for men,

              > so if you're looking at female names you need the da rather than

              > the de.



              To what period and region have you documented these patterns?



              In just a couple of minutes in the Medieval Names Archive guide to

              Italian names <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/italian. shtml> I found

              evidence of the use in feminine surnames of the preposition "di" in

              14th-century Venice <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/arval/ venice14/>

              and 15th-century Tuscany <http://s-gabriel. org/3052> <http://www.s-

              gabriel.org/ names/juliana/ condado/> , of "de" in 15th-century Naples

              <http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/ names/italian/ napleswomen. html>, and

              of both "di" and "de" in 16th-century Venice <http://www.s-

              gabriel.org/ names/juliana/ 16thcvenice. html>.



              > . . .the de is actually dei and it's used for being of a family -

              > dei Medici, etc.



              "Dei" is an articulated preposition, formed by the combination of the

              preposition "di" with a masculine plural definite article <http://

              www.gwc.org. uk/ModernLang/ hotpot/Italian2/ prepsandarticpre ps.html>.

              So while "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro", "dei Medici" means "of

              the Medici". It is a late-period form. The earlier form was "degli"

              <http://www.panix. com/~gabriel/ public-bin/ showfinal. cgi?3365>. "Dei"

              is sometimes abbreviated "de'" (that's dee, ee, apostrophe), but is a

              completely separate word from the preposition "de", which is used in

              in patronymic and locative bynames from various parts of Italy at

              various times in period (like in the 15th century, for example

              <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ docs/italian15m. html>).



              Coblaith Muimnech

              Barony of Bryn Gwlad

              Kingdom of Ansteorra

              <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>


























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Maria Buchanan
              Ok.  So that s the reason it was Maria da Modena.  Now it makes sense. ... From: Labhaoise O Beachain Subject: Re: [SCA
              Message 6 of 28 , May 10, 2009
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                Ok.  So that's the reason it was Maria da Modena.  Now it makes sense.

                --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...>
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:22 AM

















                Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....



                Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                >

                > They are different versions of "of". The short guide is:

                >

                > <da> is the "of" that is used with place names, e.g., <da Palermo>

                > is "of Palermo".

                > <di> is the "of" that is used with personal names to create a

                > patronymic byname (i.e., one that says who your father was), e.g.,

                > <di Giovanni> is "[child] of Giovanni".

                >

                > <de> is not Italian; it's the Latin preposition for "of", and

                > when an Italian name is rendered in Latin, then it is used for

                > both <da> and <di>.

                >

                > In general men and women used the same types of bynames in Italian --

                > locative bynames (formed by <da> + <city name>), patronymic bynames

                > (formed by <di> + <father's name), and family names (a catch all

                > category for everything else). Locative and patronymic bynames

                > do not have different forms for men and women. Some family names

                > do, but most do not, so it's a case-by-case basis thing for them.

                >

                > -Aryanhwy

                >

                >

                >

                > --

                > vita sine literis mors est

                > http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/

                >




























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sara L Uckelman
                ... If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed. Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don t go back quite far enough to see what
                Message 7 of 28 , May 11, 2009
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                  Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                  > I didn't document the da versus di.=A0 I tried to register Maria di Modena =
                  > at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's=
                  > name.=

                  If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed.
                  Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don't
                  go back quite far enough to see what was actually said about
                  your submission when it was considered in kingdom; it had
                  already been changed to <da Modena> when it was sent to
                  external commentary, since that's the spelling that was
                  considered on the August 1999 LoAR
                  (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1999/08/lar.html).

                  > As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes =
                  > the place if the i for some strange reason.=A0 I can't figure out why.=A0 B=

                  The apostrophe represents an omitted letter (much like the apostrophe
                  in "don't" represents an omitted <o>). This practice of abbreviating
                  words by omitting specific letters was a way for scribes to save space
                  when copying manuscripts. In <de'>, the apostrophe is just an
                  indication that the <i> has been removed.

                  -Aryanhwy



                  --
                  vita sine literis mors est
                  http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                • Maria Buchanan
                  Aryanhwy, I saw your later post and figured that I probably misunderstood what they said.  You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 11, 2009
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                    Aryanhwy,
                    I saw your later post and figured that I probably misunderstood what they said.  You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena becomes Maria da Modena because Modena is a city in northern Italy.  I understand now why they changed it.  At the time I thought it was silly, because I didn't understand.  They just said it's a female name so it has to be da.  I thought they meant that the persona is female.  Apparently they meant that cities are famale so it needed to be changed. 
                    Thank you for explaining it to me though.  I don't know much about heraldry and only gave the information I thought I had. 
                    The dei thing.  I understood the whole concept of using the de' (with apostrophy to show the missing i) but didn't really understand why the i was replaced with the apostrophy since (at least in french which I took in High School a VERY long time ago) they wouldn't use it unless they had a vowel as the first letter in the next word.  (like le ecole becomes l'ecole). 
                    It didn't make sense WHY it was done in de' Medici rather than that it was done at all.
                    Thanks for explaining it all.  I'm just glad I understand all of it now.
                    Maria

                    --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                    From: Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
                    Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                    To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:23 AM

















                    Quoth Maria Buchanan:

                    > I didn't document the da versus di.=A0 I tried to register Maria di Modena =

                    > at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's=

                    > name.=



                    If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed.

                    Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don't

                    go back quite far enough to see what was actually said about

                    your submission when it was considered in kingdom; it had

                    already been changed to <da Modena> when it was sent to

                    external commentary, since that's the spelling that was

                    considered on the August 1999 LoAR

                    (http://heraldry. sca.org/loar/ 1999/08/lar. html).



                    > As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes =

                    > the place if the i for some strange reason.=A0 I can't figure out why.=A0 B=



                    The apostrophe represents an omitted letter (much like the apostrophe

                    in "don't" represents an omitted <o>). This practice of abbreviating

                    words by omitting specific letters was a way for scribes to save space

                    when copying manuscripts. In <de'>, the apostrophe is just an

                    indication that the <i> has been removed.



                    -Aryanhwy



                    --

                    vita sine literis mors est

                    http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/


























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sara L Uckelman
                    ... Actually, that wasn t me who said that (I m not sure who it was). This is not something I m familiar with (cities having gender), and I do not know if it
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 11, 2009
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                      Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                      > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=

                      Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                      This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                      and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                      Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.

                      -Aryanhwy


                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    • Maria Buchanan
                      Maybe it was Coblaith.  But someone said it.  You saw it.  Now I m getting crazy.  I was really tired last night when I was answering emails, so I don t
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 11, 2009
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                        Maybe it was Coblaith.  But someone said it.  You saw it. 
                        Now I'm getting crazy.  I was really tired last night when I was answering emails, so I don't remember too much.
                        VERY long weekend.  But REALLY good.
                        Maria

                        --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                        From: Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 7:44 AM








                        Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                        > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=

                        Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                        This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                        and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                        Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.

                        -Aryanhwy

                        --
                        vita sine literis mors est
                        http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                        In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In some langauge, the concept IT is an alien one.... Labhaoise
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 14, 2009
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                          In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In some langauge, the concept IT is an alien one....
                          Labhaoise

                          Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                          > > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=
                          >
                          > Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                          > This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                          > and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                          > Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.
                          >
                          > -Aryanhwy
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > vita sine literis mors est
                          > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                          >
                        • Sara L Uckelman
                          ... Note that there is a difference between the grammatical gender of a word in a language which inflects nouns and adjectives based on their gender, and the
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 14, 2009
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                            Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                            > In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In so

                            Note that there is a difference between the grammatical gender
                            of a word in a language which inflects nouns and adjectives
                            based on their gender, and the more general concept of
                            anthropomorphic "gender" (such as the tendency to call ships
                            "she"). Quite often, the grammatical gender does not agree
                            with the expected anthropomorphic or sexual gender; for example,
                            there are languages where the grammatical gender of animal
                            names for both sexes are the same (usually both masculine).
                            Thus, even if cities are anthropomorphized as being feminine,
                            this does not entail that the grammatical gender of city names
                            in inflected languages is always feminine. (For example, in
                            Latin, you'll find city names which are masculine, feminine, and
                            neuter in gender).

                            -Aryanhwy





                            --
                            vita sine literis mors est
                            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
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