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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names

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  • Sara L Uckelman
    ... They are different versions of of . The short guide is: is the of that is used with place names, e.g., is of Palermo . is the
    Message 1 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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      Quoth "Kristen":
      > Hello all, I have a quick question about Italian names. How are female names
      > constructed? I'm a little confused about the uses of di, da, and de. Do th
      > ese show that a surname is masculine and feminine? Or are they different ver
      > sions of "of"? I appreciate the help very much.

      They are different versions of "of". The short guide is:

      <da> is the "of" that is used with place names, e.g., <da Palermo>
      is "of Palermo".
      <di> is the "of" that is used with personal names to create a
      patronymic byname (i.e., one that says who your father was), e.g.,
      <di Giovanni> is "[child] of Giovanni".

      <de> is not Italian; it's the Latin preposition for "of", and
      when an Italian name is rendered in Latin, then it is used for
      both <da> and <di>.

      In general men and women used the same types of bynames in Italian --
      locative bynames (formed by <da> + <city name>), patronymic bynames
      (formed by <di> + <father's name), and family names (a catch all
      category for everything else). Locative and patronymic bynames
      do not have different forms for men and women. Some family names
      do, but most do not, so it's a case-by-case basis thing for them.

      -Aryanhwy



      --
      vita sine literis mors est
      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
    • Sara L Uckelman
      ... As I noted in my other email, this isn t quite right. Whether or is appropriate depends on the construction of the phrase that it s in, but not
      Message 2 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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        Quoth Maria Buchanan:
        > g of a family - dei Medici, etc.=A0 The di is used for men, so if you're lo=
        > oking at female names you need the da rather than the de.

        As I noted in my other email, this isn't quite right. Whether
        <da> or <di> is appropriate depends on the construction of
        the phrase that it's in, but not on the gender of the given name
        that phrase is modifying.

        -Aryanhwy

        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      • Sara L Uckelman
        ... Do you know of examples of bynames like ? I would have expected the patronymic based on to be without inflecting
        Message 3 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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          Quoth Coblaith Muimnech:
          > So while "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro", "dei Medici" means "of

          Do you know of examples of bynames like <di Silvestri>? I would
          have expected the patronymic based on <Silvestro> to be <di
          Silvestro> without inflecting the given name, and the family name
          based on <Silvestro> to be <Silvestri> without the preposition.

          -Aryanhwy


          --
          vita sine literis mors est
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
        • ciana_di_firenze
          Now I m confused! Why is it Eleonora *di* Toledo? (I really need to speak to a herald about whether or not my chosen name is registerable.) Ciana di Firenze/
          Message 4 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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            Now I'm confused! Why is it Eleonora *di* Toledo? (I really need to speak to a herald about whether or not my chosen name is registerable.)

            Ciana di Firenze/ Cindy

            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Maria Buchanan <scarlettmb@...> wrote:
            >
            > You use da for women.  If you're doing a name like Maria of Florence, it would be Maria da Firenze.  the de is actually dei and it's used for being of a family - dei Medici, etc.  The di is used for men, so if you're looking at female names you need the da rather than the de.
            > My best advice for you would be to find someone in your Kingdom who knows the heraldry rules for naming better than me.  I can tell you some simply because of the problems I had registering a name.
            > Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici (called Lady Maria)
            > Maria Bulgarelli Buchanan
            >
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... It s actually -- her name is Spanish, and in Spanish, the preposition for of is . -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est
            Message 5 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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              Quoth "ciana_di_firenze":
              > Now I'm confused! Why is it Eleonora *di* Toledo? (I really need to speak t=
              > o a herald about whether or not my chosen name is registerable.)

              It's actually <Leonor _de_ Toledo> -- her name is Spanish,
              and in Spanish, the preposition for "of" is <de>.

              -Aryanhwy


              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            • Coblaith Muimnech
              ... Now would I make up an example with all the lovely real names in the Medieval Names Archive? 15th Century Italian Men s Names
              Message 6 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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                I wrote:
                > "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro"

                Aryanhwy asked:
                > Do you know of examples of bynames like <di Silvestri>?

                Now would I make up an example with all the lovely real names in the
                Medieval Names Archive?

                "15th Century Italian Men's Names" <http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/
                italian15m.html> mentions one Boetio di Silvestri who was a doctor or
                scholar lecturing at the university of Ferrara in 1473 and/or 1474.


                Coblaith Muimnech
                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                Kingdom of Ansteorra
                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                <http://coblaith.net>
              • Sara L Uckelman
                ... Thanks for the citation. As the discussion notes, the usage of the prepositions in this set of names is abberent: It s noticeable that da is the normal
                Message 7 of 28 , May 8, 2009
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                  Quoth Coblaith Muimnech:
                  > I wrote:
                  > > "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro"
                  >
                  > Aryanhwy asked:
                  > > Do you know of examples of bynames like <di Silvestri>?
                  >
                  > "15th Century Italian Men's Names" <http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/
                  > italian15m.html> mentions one Boetio di Silvestri who was a doctor or
                  > scholar lecturing at the university of Ferrara in 1473 and/or 1474.

                  Thanks for the citation. As the discussion notes, the usage of
                  the prepositions in this set of names is abberent:

                  "It's noticeable that da is the normal locative pronoun, but see also
                  the names Ruberto di Girardin da Lendenara and Nicol�� de Girardin de
                  Lendenara: here we see normal Italian usage in the first name and
                  substitution of de for *both* prepositions in the second. In de
                  Bertolin, de Vi(n)cenzi, de Gilino, and de Marcho Galeotto the
                  preposition is probably patronymic, but de Piamonti is probably a
                  locative 'of Piemonte'. If the final a can be trusted, de Argentina is
                  probably metronymic. The name di Paxiti is clearly patronymic; the
                  source is a diminutive of the name Pace, from Latin pax 'peace'. The
                  name di Zirondi is more difficult to interpret. In this dialect Zirondi
                  should be from Gironde, the name of a French province. It appears that
                  either di is being used here with locative sense, or this is a
                  patronymic based on a byname."

                  So I would not take this data as typical or base any generalizations
                  on it.

                  -Aryanhwy



                  --
                  vita sine literis mors est
                  http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                  Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 10, 2009
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                    Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....


                    Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > They are different versions of "of". The short guide is:
                    >
                    > <da> is the "of" that is used with place names, e.g., <da Palermo>
                    > is "of Palermo".
                    > <di> is the "of" that is used with personal names to create a
                    > patronymic byname (i.e., one that says who your father was), e.g.,
                    > <di Giovanni> is "[child] of Giovanni".
                    >
                    > <de> is not Italian; it's the Latin preposition for "of", and
                    > when an Italian name is rendered in Latin, then it is used for
                    > both <da> and <di>.
                    >
                    > In general men and women used the same types of bynames in Italian --
                    > locative bynames (formed by <da> + <city name>), patronymic bynames
                    > (formed by <di> + <father's name), and family names (a catch all
                    > category for everything else). Locative and patronymic bynames
                    > do not have different forms for men and women. Some family names
                    > do, but most do not, so it's a case-by-case basis thing for them.
                    >
                    > -Aryanhwy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > vita sine literis mors est
                    > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    >
                  • Sara L Uckelman
                    ... The preposition is also used in matronymic bynames (i.e., ones indicating the bearer s mother s given name). -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 10, 2009
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                      Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                      > Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....

                      The preposition <di> is also used in matronymic bynames (i.e.,
                      ones indicating the bearer's mother's given name).

                      -Aryanhwy


                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    • Maria Buchanan
                      I didn t document the da versus di.  I tried to register Maria di Modena at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman s name.  I
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 10, 2009
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                        I didn't document the da versus di.  I tried to register Maria di Modena at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's name.  I was actually VERY confused about that at the time, because I had found women's names with di and couldn't figure out why they said that, but I also figured they knew more than me so I just took their word for that.  And I'm in Ansteorra so you'd have to ask the heralds who sent the name back after my local herald sent it in.  This happened way back in 1998 so I don't even know who they were. 

                        As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes the place if the i for some strange reason.  I can't figure out why.  But I've read the Medici names both ways - with dei and with de'.  I don't know the reasons, but since I have researched the Medici family VERY thouroughly (and have the name on my personal family tree) I happen to know that I'm right about the dei/de' thing.

                        If I'm wrong, I'm glad you pointed it out.  I was just passing on the information that I got way back when.
                        Maria

                        --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:
                        From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 5:38 PM

















                        Kristen wrote:

                        >

                        > I have a quick question about Italian names.. . .I'm a little

                        > confused about the uses of di, da, and de. Do these show that a

                        > surname is masculine and feminine? Or are they different versions

                        > of "of"?



                        Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici wrote:

                        > You use da for women. If you're doing a name like Maria of

                        > Florence, it would be Maria da Firenze.. . .The di is used for men,

                        > so if you're looking at female names you need the da rather than

                        > the de.



                        To what period and region have you documented these patterns?



                        In just a couple of minutes in the Medieval Names Archive guide to

                        Italian names <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/italian. shtml> I found

                        evidence of the use in feminine surnames of the preposition "di" in

                        14th-century Venice <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/arval/ venice14/>

                        and 15th-century Tuscany <http://s-gabriel. org/3052> <http://www.s-

                        gabriel.org/ names/juliana/ condado/> , of "de" in 15th-century Naples

                        <http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/ names/italian/ napleswomen. html>, and

                        of both "di" and "de" in 16th-century Venice <http://www.s-

                        gabriel.org/ names/juliana/ 16thcvenice. html>.



                        > . . .the de is actually dei and it's used for being of a family -

                        > dei Medici, etc.



                        "Dei" is an articulated preposition, formed by the combination of the

                        preposition "di" with a masculine plural definite article <http://

                        www.gwc.org. uk/ModernLang/ hotpot/Italian2/ prepsandarticpre ps.html>.

                        So while "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro", "dei Medici" means "of

                        the Medici". It is a late-period form. The earlier form was "degli"

                        <http://www.panix. com/~gabriel/ public-bin/ showfinal. cgi?3365>. "Dei"

                        is sometimes abbreviated "de'" (that's dee, ee, apostrophe), but is a

                        completely separate word from the preposition "de", which is used in

                        in patronymic and locative bynames from various parts of Italy at

                        various times in period (like in the 15th century, for example

                        <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ docs/italian15m. html>).



                        Coblaith Muimnech

                        Barony of Bryn Gwlad

                        Kingdom of Ansteorra

                        <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>


























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Maria Buchanan
                        Ok.  So that s the reason it was Maria da Modena.  Now it makes sense. ... From: Labhaoise O Beachain Subject: Re: [SCA
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 10, 2009
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                          Ok.  So that's the reason it was Maria da Modena.  Now it makes sense.

                          --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                          From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...>
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:22 AM

















                          Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....



                          Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                          >

                          > They are different versions of "of". The short guide is:

                          >

                          > <da> is the "of" that is used with place names, e.g., <da Palermo>

                          > is "of Palermo".

                          > <di> is the "of" that is used with personal names to create a

                          > patronymic byname (i.e., one that says who your father was), e.g.,

                          > <di Giovanni> is "[child] of Giovanni".

                          >

                          > <de> is not Italian; it's the Latin preposition for "of", and

                          > when an Italian name is rendered in Latin, then it is used for

                          > both <da> and <di>.

                          >

                          > In general men and women used the same types of bynames in Italian --

                          > locative bynames (formed by <da> + <city name>), patronymic bynames

                          > (formed by <di> + <father's name), and family names (a catch all

                          > category for everything else). Locative and patronymic bynames

                          > do not have different forms for men and women. Some family names

                          > do, but most do not, so it's a case-by-case basis thing for them.

                          >

                          > -Aryanhwy

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > --

                          > vita sine literis mors est

                          > http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/

                          >




























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Sara L Uckelman
                          ... If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed. Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don t go back quite far enough to see what
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 11, 2009
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                            Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                            > I didn't document the da versus di.=A0 I tried to register Maria di Modena =
                            > at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's=
                            > name.=

                            If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed.
                            Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don't
                            go back quite far enough to see what was actually said about
                            your submission when it was considered in kingdom; it had
                            already been changed to <da Modena> when it was sent to
                            external commentary, since that's the spelling that was
                            considered on the August 1999 LoAR
                            (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1999/08/lar.html).

                            > As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes =
                            > the place if the i for some strange reason.=A0 I can't figure out why.=A0 B=

                            The apostrophe represents an omitted letter (much like the apostrophe
                            in "don't" represents an omitted <o>). This practice of abbreviating
                            words by omitting specific letters was a way for scribes to save space
                            when copying manuscripts. In <de'>, the apostrophe is just an
                            indication that the <i> has been removed.

                            -Aryanhwy



                            --
                            vita sine literis mors est
                            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                          • Maria Buchanan
                            Aryanhwy, I saw your later post and figured that I probably misunderstood what they said.  You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 11, 2009
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                              Aryanhwy,
                              I saw your later post and figured that I probably misunderstood what they said.  You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena becomes Maria da Modena because Modena is a city in northern Italy.  I understand now why they changed it.  At the time I thought it was silly, because I didn't understand.  They just said it's a female name so it has to be da.  I thought they meant that the persona is female.  Apparently they meant that cities are famale so it needed to be changed. 
                              Thank you for explaining it to me though.  I don't know much about heraldry and only gave the information I thought I had. 
                              The dei thing.  I understood the whole concept of using the de' (with apostrophy to show the missing i) but didn't really understand why the i was replaced with the apostrophy since (at least in french which I took in High School a VERY long time ago) they wouldn't use it unless they had a vowel as the first letter in the next word.  (like le ecole becomes l'ecole). 
                              It didn't make sense WHY it was done in de' Medici rather than that it was done at all.
                              Thanks for explaining it all.  I'm just glad I understand all of it now.
                              Maria

                              --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                              From: Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
                              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:23 AM

















                              Quoth Maria Buchanan:

                              > I didn't document the da versus di.=A0 I tried to register Maria di Modena =

                              > at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's=

                              > name.=



                              If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed.

                              Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don't

                              go back quite far enough to see what was actually said about

                              your submission when it was considered in kingdom; it had

                              already been changed to <da Modena> when it was sent to

                              external commentary, since that's the spelling that was

                              considered on the August 1999 LoAR

                              (http://heraldry. sca.org/loar/ 1999/08/lar. html).



                              > As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes =

                              > the place if the i for some strange reason.=A0 I can't figure out why.=A0 B=



                              The apostrophe represents an omitted letter (much like the apostrophe

                              in "don't" represents an omitted <o>). This practice of abbreviating

                              words by omitting specific letters was a way for scribes to save space

                              when copying manuscripts. In <de'>, the apostrophe is just an

                              indication that the <i> has been removed.



                              -Aryanhwy



                              --

                              vita sine literis mors est

                              http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/


























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Sara L Uckelman
                              ... Actually, that wasn t me who said that (I m not sure who it was). This is not something I m familiar with (cities having gender), and I do not know if it
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 11, 2009
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                                Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                                > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=

                                Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                                This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                                and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                                Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.

                                -Aryanhwy


                                --
                                vita sine literis mors est
                                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                              • Maria Buchanan
                                Maybe it was Coblaith.  But someone said it.  You saw it.  Now I m getting crazy.  I was really tired last night when I was answering emails, so I don t
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 11, 2009
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                                  Maybe it was Coblaith.  But someone said it.  You saw it. 
                                  Now I'm getting crazy.  I was really tired last night when I was answering emails, so I don't remember too much.
                                  VERY long weekend.  But REALLY good.
                                  Maria

                                  --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                                  From: Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 7:44 AM








                                  Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                                  > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=

                                  Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                                  This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                                  and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                                  Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.

                                  -Aryanhwy

                                  --
                                  vita sine literis mors est
                                  http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                                  In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In some langauge, the concept IT is an alien one.... Labhaoise
                                  Message 16 of 28 , May 14, 2009
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                                    In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In some langauge, the concept IT is an alien one....
                                    Labhaoise

                                    Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                                    > > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=
                                    >
                                    > Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                                    > This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                                    > and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                                    > Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.
                                    >
                                    > -Aryanhwy
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > vita sine literis mors est
                                    > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                    >
                                  • Sara L Uckelman
                                    ... Note that there is a difference between the grammatical gender of a word in a language which inflects nouns and adjectives based on their gender, and the
                                    Message 17 of 28 , May 14, 2009
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                                      Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                                      > In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In so

                                      Note that there is a difference between the grammatical gender
                                      of a word in a language which inflects nouns and adjectives
                                      based on their gender, and the more general concept of
                                      anthropomorphic "gender" (such as the tendency to call ships
                                      "she"). Quite often, the grammatical gender does not agree
                                      with the expected anthropomorphic or sexual gender; for example,
                                      there are languages where the grammatical gender of animal
                                      names for both sexes are the same (usually both masculine).
                                      Thus, even if cities are anthropomorphized as being feminine,
                                      this does not entail that the grammatical gender of city names
                                      in inflected languages is always feminine. (For example, in
                                      Latin, you'll find city names which are masculine, feminine, and
                                      neuter in gender).

                                      -Aryanhwy





                                      --
                                      vita sine literis mors est
                                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
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