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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names

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  • Kristen Praiswater
    That makes sense, thank you very much Lady Maria.  I appreciate the information. Kristen ... From: Maria Buchanan Subject: Re: [SCA
    Message 1 of 28 , May 7 2:57 PM
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      That makes sense, thank you very much Lady Maria.  I appreciate the information.

      Kristen

      --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Maria Buchanan <scarlettmb@...> wrote:
      From: Maria Buchanan <scarlettmb@...>
      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 4:44 PM

















      You use da for women.  If you're doing a name like Maria of Florence, it would be Maria da Firenze.  the de is actually dei and it's used for being of a family - dei Medici, etc.  The di is used for men, so if you're looking at female names you need the da rather than the de.

      My best advice for you would be to find someone in your Kingdom who knows the heraldry rules for naming better than me.  I can tell you some simply because of the problems I had registering a name.

      Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici (called Lady Maria)

      Maria Bulgarelli Buchanan



      --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Kristen <spellsinger28@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: Kristen <spellsinger28@ yahoo.com>

      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names

      To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

      Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 4:22 PM



      Hello all, I have a quick question about Italian names. How are female names constructed? I'm a little confused about the uses of di, da, and de. Do these show that a surname is masculine and feminine? Or are they different versions of "of"? I appreciate the help very much.



      Thanks,



      Kristen























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • SidheMaiden
      I see Rosa, Rossa, Rosana and Rosanella in period but no Rosabella. This all from the Medieval Names Archive. Éva ... -- I believe in everything until it s
      Message 2 of 28 , May 7 3:10 PM
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        I see Rosa, Rossa, Rosana and Rosanella in period but no Rosabella. This
        all from the Medieval Names Archive.

        Éva

        Kristen Praiswater wrote:
        >
        >
        > O.k. I was looking at the 15th or 16th century in the tuscan region of
        > Italy, or maybe the Northern region. Here's why I'm asking. Our
        > Baron pulled a name out of the air and named me Rosabella on a thank
        > you card he gave us for helping with demo at our local renaissance
        > fair. I like the first name and would like to continue using it.
        >
        > Kristen
        >
        > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...
        > <mailto:Coblaith%40sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
        > From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...
        > <mailto:Coblaith%40sbcglobal.net>>
        > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
        > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scanewcomers%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 4:34 PM
        >
        > Kristen wrote:
        >
        > > . . .I have a quick question about Italian names. How are female
        >
        > > names constructed?
        >
        > You'll have to be more specific to get an accurate answer. How names
        >
        > were formed will depend on where as well as when they were
        >
        > constructed. What's now known as Italy wasn't culturally unified in
        >
        > our period.
        >
        > The Medieval Names Archive guide to Italian names <http://www.s-
        >
        > gabriel.org/ names/italian. shtml> is a good place to start your
        >
        > research. Several of the articles indexed there include information
        >
        > on patterns in feminine surnames from various periods and regions.
        >
        > Coblaith Muimnech
        >
        > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        >
        > Kingdom of Ansteorra
        >
        > <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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        --
        I believe in everything until it's disproved.
        So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if
        it's in your mind.
        Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and
        now? ~John Lennon
      • Kristen Praiswater
        Yeah I know I looked there too, so I m back to square one.  I looked it up on a site called behind the name and I m thinking it s a newer name.  At this
        Message 3 of 28 , May 7 3:19 PM
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          Yeah I know I looked there too, so I'm back to square one.  I looked it up on a site called behind the name and I'm thinking it's a newer name.  At this point I'm not sure if I like the other versions of Rose or just drop it and find something else.  Thanks for the help.

          Kristen



          --- On Thu, 5/7/09, SidheMaiden <sidhemaiden@...> wrote:
          From: SidheMaiden <sidhemaiden@...>
          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 5:10 PM

















          I see Rosa, Rossa, Rosana and Rosanella in period but no Rosabella. This

          all from the Medieval Names Archive.



          Éva



          Kristen Praiswater wrote:

          >

          >

          > O.k. I was looking at the 15th or 16th century in the tuscan region of

          > Italy, or maybe the Northern region. Here's why I'm asking. Our

          > Baron pulled a name out of the air and named me Rosabella on a thank

          > you card he gave us for helping with demo at our local renaissance

          > fair. I like the first name and would like to continue using it.

          >

          > Kristen

          >

          > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@sbcglobal. net

          > <mailto:Coblaith% 40sbcglobal. net>> wrote:

          > From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@sbcglobal. net

          > <mailto:Coblaith% 40sbcglobal. net>>

          > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names

          > To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:scanewcomer s%40yahoogroups. com>

          > Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 4:34 PM

          >

          > Kristen wrote:

          >

          > > . . .I have a quick question about Italian names. How are female

          >

          > > names constructed?

          >

          > You'll have to be more specific to get an accurate answer. How names

          >

          > were formed will depend on where as well as when they were

          >

          > constructed. What's now known as Italy wasn't culturally unified in

          >

          > our period.

          >

          > The Medieval Names Archive guide to Italian names <http://www.s-

          >

          > gabriel.org/ names/italian. shtml> is a good place to start your

          >

          > research. Several of the articles indexed there include information

          >

          > on patterns in feminine surnames from various periods and regions.

          >

          > Coblaith Muimnech

          >

          > Barony of Bryn Gwlad

          >

          > Kingdom of Ansteorra

          >

          > <mailto:Coblaith@ sbcglobal. net>

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          >

          >

          > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

          >

          >

          > No virus found in this incoming message.

          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

          > Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.21/2102 - Release Date: 05/07/09 05:57:00

          >

          >



          --

          I believe in everything until it's disproved.

          So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if

          it's in your mind.

          Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and

          now? ~John Lennon





























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Coblaith Muimnech
          ... To what period and region have you documented these patterns? In just a couple of minutes in the Medieval Names Archive guide to Italian names
          Message 4 of 28 , May 7 3:38 PM
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            Kristen wrote:
            >
            > I have a quick question about Italian names.. . .I'm a little
            > confused about the uses of di, da, and de. Do these show that a
            > surname is masculine and feminine? Or are they different versions
            > of "of"?

            Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici wrote:
            > You use da for women. If you're doing a name like Maria of
            > Florence, it would be Maria da Firenze.. . .The di is used for men,
            > so if you're looking at female names you need the da rather than
            > the de.

            To what period and region have you documented these patterns?

            In just a couple of minutes in the Medieval Names Archive guide to
            Italian names <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/italian.shtml> I found
            evidence of the use in feminine surnames of the preposition "di" in
            14th-century Venice <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/>
            and 15th-century Tuscany <http://s-gabriel.org/3052> <http://www.s-
            gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/>, of "de" in 15th-century Naples
            <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/napleswomen.html>, and
            of both "di" and "de" in 16th-century Venice <http://www.s-
            gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html>.

            > . . .the de is actually dei and it's used for being of a family -
            > dei Medici, etc.


            "Dei" is an articulated preposition, formed by the combination of the
            preposition "di" with a masculine plural definite article <http://
            www.gwc.org.uk/ModernLang/hotpot/Italian2/prepsandarticpreps.html>.
            So while "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro", "dei Medici" means "of
            the Medici". It is a late-period form. The earlier form was "degli"
            <http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?3365>. "Dei"
            is sometimes abbreviated "de'" (that's dee, ee, apostrophe), but is a
            completely separate word from the preposition "de", which is used in
            in patronymic and locative bynames from various parts of Italy at
            various times in period (like in the 15th century, for example
            <http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/italian15m.html>).



            Coblaith Muimnech
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
          • Coblaith Muimnech
            ... Well, Rosa and Bella were both in use as feminine given names in Florence in the 15th century , and
            Message 5 of 28 , May 7 3:52 PM
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              Kristen wrote:
              > I was looking at the 15th or 16th century in the tuscan region of
              > Italy. . .Our Baron pulled a name out of the air and named me
              > Rosabella . . .I like the first name and would like to continue
              > using it.

              Well, "Rosa" and "Bella" were both in use as feminine given names in
              Florence in the 15th century <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/
              catasto/>, and double given names were common (at least among the
              bourgeoisie) in Florence in the 14th through 16th centuries <http://s-
              gabriel.org/3225>, so there's a reasonable chance you'd be able to
              register "Rosa Bella [your favorite 15th-century Florentine byname]".

              Would that do?


              Coblaith Muimnech
              Barony of Bryn Gwlad
              Kingdom of Ansteorra
              <mailto:Coblaith@...>
              <http://coblaith.net>
            • Kristen Praiswater
              Yeah I think it would do, it just never occurred to me to separate the names.  Thank you for the suggestion.  Once I figure out how to make the surname I ll
              Message 6 of 28 , May 7 9:40 PM
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                Yeah I think it would do, it just never occurred to me to separate the names.  Thank you for the suggestion.  Once I figure out how to make the surname I'll give it a shot.  One can only try.  I'm still confused by all the di's, da's, and de's.  It reminds me of my high school Spanish and French classes where you have to put the right preposition in front of the word and change the ending to make it feminine.  I'll get it worked out though.  You guys are the greatest, I have know idea what I would do without you. 


                Kristen

                --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:
                From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 5:52 PM

















                Kristen wrote:

                > I was looking at the 15th or 16th century in the tuscan region of

                > Italy. . .Our Baron pulled a name out of the air and named me

                > Rosabella . . .I like the first name and would like to continue

                > using it.



                Well, "Rosa" and "Bella" were both in use as feminine given names in

                Florence in the 15th century <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/arval/

                catasto/>, and double given names were common (at least among the

                bourgeoisie) in Florence in the 14th through 16th centuries <http://s-

                gabriel.org/ 3225>, so there's a reasonable chance you'd be able to

                register "Rosa Bella [your favorite 15th-century Florentine byname]".



                Would that do?



                Coblaith Muimnech

                Barony of Bryn Gwlad

                Kingdom of Ansteorra

                <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>

                <http://coblaith. net>































                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Coblaith Muimnech
                ... There s no need to make a name. Just go to an article that lists bynames or complete names from your period (like the one at
                Message 7 of 28 , May 8 12:31 AM
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                  I wrote:
                  > there's a reasonable chance you'd be able to register "Rosa Bella
                  > [your favorite 15th-century Florentine byname]".

                  Kristen wrote:
                  > Once I figure out how to make the surname I'll give it a shot. One
                  > can only try. I'm still confused by all the di's, da's, and de's.

                  There's no need to make a name. Just go to an article that lists
                  bynames or complete names from your period (like the one at <http://
                  www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/completenames.html>, for
                  instance) and choose one off the list. See "Antonia di Nanni", be
                  "Rosa Bella di Nanni". So far as I can tell by looking at the names
                  lists and reading the articles on naming patterns, patronymic and
                  locative bynames from your period were not gender-specific. So if
                  you see a byname you like but it's used in the data with a masculine
                  given name, you can probably use it anyway. If you'll tell me what
                  you've got in mind, I can double-check it with some heralds who know
                  a lot about Florentine names to make sure you've got the details right.


                  Coblaith Muimnech
                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                  <http://coblaith.net>
                • Sara L Uckelman
                  ... They are different versions of of . The short guide is: is the of that is used with place names, e.g., is of Palermo . is the
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 8 1:05 AM
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                    Quoth "Kristen":
                    > Hello all, I have a quick question about Italian names. How are female names
                    > constructed? I'm a little confused about the uses of di, da, and de. Do th
                    > ese show that a surname is masculine and feminine? Or are they different ver
                    > sions of "of"? I appreciate the help very much.

                    They are different versions of "of". The short guide is:

                    <da> is the "of" that is used with place names, e.g., <da Palermo>
                    is "of Palermo".
                    <di> is the "of" that is used with personal names to create a
                    patronymic byname (i.e., one that says who your father was), e.g.,
                    <di Giovanni> is "[child] of Giovanni".

                    <de> is not Italian; it's the Latin preposition for "of", and
                    when an Italian name is rendered in Latin, then it is used for
                    both <da> and <di>.

                    In general men and women used the same types of bynames in Italian --
                    locative bynames (formed by <da> + <city name>), patronymic bynames
                    (formed by <di> + <father's name), and family names (a catch all
                    category for everything else). Locative and patronymic bynames
                    do not have different forms for men and women. Some family names
                    do, but most do not, so it's a case-by-case basis thing for them.

                    -Aryanhwy



                    --
                    vita sine literis mors est
                    http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                  • Sara L Uckelman
                    ... As I noted in my other email, this isn t quite right. Whether or is appropriate depends on the construction of the phrase that it s in, but not
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 8 1:07 AM
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                      Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                      > g of a family - dei Medici, etc.=A0 The di is used for men, so if you're lo=
                      > oking at female names you need the da rather than the de.

                      As I noted in my other email, this isn't quite right. Whether
                      <da> or <di> is appropriate depends on the construction of
                      the phrase that it's in, but not on the gender of the given name
                      that phrase is modifying.

                      -Aryanhwy

                      --
                      vita sine literis mors est
                      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                    • Sara L Uckelman
                      ... Do you know of examples of bynames like ? I would have expected the patronymic based on to be without inflecting
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 8 1:09 AM
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                        Quoth Coblaith Muimnech:
                        > So while "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro", "dei Medici" means "of

                        Do you know of examples of bynames like <di Silvestri>? I would
                        have expected the patronymic based on <Silvestro> to be <di
                        Silvestro> without inflecting the given name, and the family name
                        based on <Silvestro> to be <Silvestri> without the preposition.

                        -Aryanhwy


                        --
                        vita sine literis mors est
                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                      • ciana_di_firenze
                        Now I m confused! Why is it Eleonora *di* Toledo? (I really need to speak to a herald about whether or not my chosen name is registerable.) Ciana di Firenze/
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 8 8:08 AM
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                          Now I'm confused! Why is it Eleonora *di* Toledo? (I really need to speak to a herald about whether or not my chosen name is registerable.)

                          Ciana di Firenze/ Cindy

                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Maria Buchanan <scarlettmb@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > You use da for women.  If you're doing a name like Maria of Florence, it would be Maria da Firenze.  the de is actually dei and it's used for being of a family - dei Medici, etc.  The di is used for men, so if you're looking at female names you need the da rather than the de.
                          > My best advice for you would be to find someone in your Kingdom who knows the heraldry rules for naming better than me.  I can tell you some simply because of the problems I had registering a name.
                          > Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici (called Lady Maria)
                          > Maria Bulgarelli Buchanan
                          >
                        • Sara L Uckelman
                          ... It s actually -- her name is Spanish, and in Spanish, the preposition for of is . -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 8 8:25 AM
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                            Quoth "ciana_di_firenze":
                            > Now I'm confused! Why is it Eleonora *di* Toledo? (I really need to speak t=
                            > o a herald about whether or not my chosen name is registerable.)

                            It's actually <Leonor _de_ Toledo> -- her name is Spanish,
                            and in Spanish, the preposition for "of" is <de>.

                            -Aryanhwy


                            --
                            vita sine literis mors est
                            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                          • Coblaith Muimnech
                            ... Now would I make up an example with all the lovely real names in the Medieval Names Archive? 15th Century Italian Men s Names
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 8 9:46 AM
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                              I wrote:
                              > "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro"

                              Aryanhwy asked:
                              > Do you know of examples of bynames like <di Silvestri>?

                              Now would I make up an example with all the lovely real names in the
                              Medieval Names Archive?

                              "15th Century Italian Men's Names" <http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/
                              italian15m.html> mentions one Boetio di Silvestri who was a doctor or
                              scholar lecturing at the university of Ferrara in 1473 and/or 1474.


                              Coblaith Muimnech
                              Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                              Kingdom of Ansteorra
                              <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                              <http://coblaith.net>
                            • Sara L Uckelman
                              ... Thanks for the citation. As the discussion notes, the usage of the prepositions in this set of names is abberent: It s noticeable that da is the normal
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 8 11:19 AM
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                                Quoth Coblaith Muimnech:
                                > I wrote:
                                > > "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro"
                                >
                                > Aryanhwy asked:
                                > > Do you know of examples of bynames like <di Silvestri>?
                                >
                                > "15th Century Italian Men's Names" <http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/
                                > italian15m.html> mentions one Boetio di Silvestri who was a doctor or
                                > scholar lecturing at the university of Ferrara in 1473 and/or 1474.

                                Thanks for the citation. As the discussion notes, the usage of
                                the prepositions in this set of names is abberent:

                                "It's noticeable that da is the normal locative pronoun, but see also
                                the names Ruberto di Girardin da Lendenara and Nicol�� de Girardin de
                                Lendenara: here we see normal Italian usage in the first name and
                                substitution of de for *both* prepositions in the second. In de
                                Bertolin, de Vi(n)cenzi, de Gilino, and de Marcho Galeotto the
                                preposition is probably patronymic, but de Piamonti is probably a
                                locative 'of Piemonte'. If the final a can be trusted, de Argentina is
                                probably metronymic. The name di Paxiti is clearly patronymic; the
                                source is a diminutive of the name Pace, from Latin pax 'peace'. The
                                name di Zirondi is more difficult to interpret. In this dialect Zirondi
                                should be from Gironde, the name of a French province. It appears that
                                either di is being used here with locative sense, or this is a
                                patronymic based on a byname."

                                So I would not take this data as typical or base any generalizations
                                on it.

                                -Aryanhwy



                                --
                                vita sine literis mors est
                                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                              • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                                Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 10 6:22 AM
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                                  Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....


                                  Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > They are different versions of "of". The short guide is:
                                  >
                                  > <da> is the "of" that is used with place names, e.g., <da Palermo>
                                  > is "of Palermo".
                                  > <di> is the "of" that is used with personal names to create a
                                  > patronymic byname (i.e., one that says who your father was), e.g.,
                                  > <di Giovanni> is "[child] of Giovanni".
                                  >
                                  > <de> is not Italian; it's the Latin preposition for "of", and
                                  > when an Italian name is rendered in Latin, then it is used for
                                  > both <da> and <di>.
                                  >
                                  > In general men and women used the same types of bynames in Italian --
                                  > locative bynames (formed by <da> + <city name>), patronymic bynames
                                  > (formed by <di> + <father's name), and family names (a catch all
                                  > category for everything else). Locative and patronymic bynames
                                  > do not have different forms for men and women. Some family names
                                  > do, but most do not, so it's a case-by-case basis thing for them.
                                  >
                                  > -Aryanhwy
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > vita sine literis mors est
                                  > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                  >
                                • Sara L Uckelman
                                  ... The preposition is also used in matronymic bynames (i.e., ones indicating the bearer s mother s given name). -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est
                                  Message 16 of 28 , May 10 6:42 AM
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                                    Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                                    > Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....

                                    The preposition <di> is also used in matronymic bynames (i.e.,
                                    ones indicating the bearer's mother's given name).

                                    -Aryanhwy


                                    --
                                    vita sine literis mors est
                                    http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                  • Maria Buchanan
                                    I didn t document the da versus di.  I tried to register Maria di Modena at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman s name.  I
                                    Message 17 of 28 , May 10 6:51 PM
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                                      I didn't document the da versus di.  I tried to register Maria di Modena at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's name.  I was actually VERY confused about that at the time, because I had found women's names with di and couldn't figure out why they said that, but I also figured they knew more than me so I just took their word for that.  And I'm in Ansteorra so you'd have to ask the heralds who sent the name back after my local herald sent it in.  This happened way back in 1998 so I don't even know who they were. 

                                      As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes the place if the i for some strange reason.  I can't figure out why.  But I've read the Medici names both ways - with dei and with de'.  I don't know the reasons, but since I have researched the Medici family VERY thouroughly (and have the name on my personal family tree) I happen to know that I'm right about the dei/de' thing.

                                      If I'm wrong, I'm glad you pointed it out.  I was just passing on the information that I got way back when.
                                      Maria

                                      --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:
                                      From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 5:38 PM

















                                      Kristen wrote:

                                      >

                                      > I have a quick question about Italian names.. . .I'm a little

                                      > confused about the uses of di, da, and de. Do these show that a

                                      > surname is masculine and feminine? Or are they different versions

                                      > of "of"?



                                      Lady Elizabeta Maria dei Medici wrote:

                                      > You use da for women. If you're doing a name like Maria of

                                      > Florence, it would be Maria da Firenze.. . .The di is used for men,

                                      > so if you're looking at female names you need the da rather than

                                      > the de.



                                      To what period and region have you documented these patterns?



                                      In just a couple of minutes in the Medieval Names Archive guide to

                                      Italian names <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/italian. shtml> I found

                                      evidence of the use in feminine surnames of the preposition "di" in

                                      14th-century Venice <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/arval/ venice14/>

                                      and 15th-century Tuscany <http://s-gabriel. org/3052> <http://www.s-

                                      gabriel.org/ names/juliana/ condado/> , of "de" in 15th-century Naples

                                      <http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/ names/italian/ napleswomen. html>, and

                                      of both "di" and "de" in 16th-century Venice <http://www.s-

                                      gabriel.org/ names/juliana/ 16thcvenice. html>.



                                      > . . .the de is actually dei and it's used for being of a family -

                                      > dei Medici, etc.



                                      "Dei" is an articulated preposition, formed by the combination of the

                                      preposition "di" with a masculine plural definite article <http://

                                      www.gwc.org. uk/ModernLang/ hotpot/Italian2/ prepsandarticpre ps.html>.

                                      So while "di Silvestri" means "of Silvestro", "dei Medici" means "of

                                      the Medici". It is a late-period form. The earlier form was "degli"

                                      <http://www.panix. com/~gabriel/ public-bin/ showfinal. cgi?3365>. "Dei"

                                      is sometimes abbreviated "de'" (that's dee, ee, apostrophe), but is a

                                      completely separate word from the preposition "de", which is used in

                                      in patronymic and locative bynames from various parts of Italy at

                                      various times in period (like in the 15th century, for example

                                      <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ docs/italian15m. html>).



                                      Coblaith Muimnech

                                      Barony of Bryn Gwlad

                                      Kingdom of Ansteorra

                                      <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>


























                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Maria Buchanan
                                      Ok.  So that s the reason it was Maria da Modena.  Now it makes sense. ... From: Labhaoise O Beachain Subject: Re: [SCA
                                      Message 18 of 28 , May 10 7:10 PM
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                                        Ok.  So that's the reason it was Maria da Modena.  Now it makes sense.

                                        --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                                        From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:22 AM

















                                        Cities, by the way are feminine, and fathers are not.....



                                        Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                                        >

                                        > They are different versions of "of". The short guide is:

                                        >

                                        > <da> is the "of" that is used with place names, e.g., <da Palermo>

                                        > is "of Palermo".

                                        > <di> is the "of" that is used with personal names to create a

                                        > patronymic byname (i.e., one that says who your father was), e.g.,

                                        > <di Giovanni> is "[child] of Giovanni".

                                        >

                                        > <de> is not Italian; it's the Latin preposition for "of", and

                                        > when an Italian name is rendered in Latin, then it is used for

                                        > both <da> and <di>.

                                        >

                                        > In general men and women used the same types of bynames in Italian --

                                        > locative bynames (formed by <da> + <city name>), patronymic bynames

                                        > (formed by <di> + <father's name), and family names (a catch all

                                        > category for everything else). Locative and patronymic bynames

                                        > do not have different forms for men and women. Some family names

                                        > do, but most do not, so it's a case-by-case basis thing for them.

                                        >

                                        > -Aryanhwy

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        > --

                                        > vita sine literis mors est

                                        > http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/

                                        >




























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Sara L Uckelman
                                        ... If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed. Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don t go back quite far enough to see what
                                        Message 19 of 28 , May 11 1:23 AM
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                                          Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                                          > I didn't document the da versus di.=A0 I tried to register Maria di Modena =
                                          > at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's=
                                          > name.=

                                          If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed.
                                          Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don't
                                          go back quite far enough to see what was actually said about
                                          your submission when it was considered in kingdom; it had
                                          already been changed to <da Modena> when it was sent to
                                          external commentary, since that's the spelling that was
                                          considered on the August 1999 LoAR
                                          (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1999/08/lar.html).

                                          > As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes =
                                          > the place if the i for some strange reason.=A0 I can't figure out why.=A0 B=

                                          The apostrophe represents an omitted letter (much like the apostrophe
                                          in "don't" represents an omitted <o>). This practice of abbreviating
                                          words by omitting specific letters was a way for scribes to save space
                                          when copying manuscripts. In <de'>, the apostrophe is just an
                                          indication that the <i> has been removed.

                                          -Aryanhwy



                                          --
                                          vita sine literis mors est
                                          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                        • Maria Buchanan
                                          Aryanhwy, I saw your later post and figured that I probably misunderstood what they said.  You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena
                                          Message 20 of 28 , May 11 5:41 AM
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                                            Aryanhwy,
                                            I saw your later post and figured that I probably misunderstood what they said.  You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena becomes Maria da Modena because Modena is a city in northern Italy.  I understand now why they changed it.  At the time I thought it was silly, because I didn't understand.  They just said it's a female name so it has to be da.  I thought they meant that the persona is female.  Apparently they meant that cities are famale so it needed to be changed. 
                                            Thank you for explaining it to me though.  I don't know much about heraldry and only gave the information I thought I had. 
                                            The dei thing.  I understood the whole concept of using the de' (with apostrophy to show the missing i) but didn't really understand why the i was replaced with the apostrophy since (at least in french which I took in High School a VERY long time ago) they wouldn't use it unless they had a vowel as the first letter in the next word.  (like le ecole becomes l'ecole). 
                                            It didn't make sense WHY it was done in de' Medici rather than that it was done at all.
                                            Thanks for explaining it all.  I'm just glad I understand all of it now.
                                            Maria

                                            --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                                            From: Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                                            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:23 AM

















                                            Quoth Maria Buchanan:

                                            > I didn't document the da versus di.=A0 I tried to register Maria di Modena =

                                            > at one point and they told me that I had to use da because it was a woman's=

                                            > name.=



                                            If this is what you were told, then you were misinformed.

                                            Unfortunately, the Ansteorran heraldic records online don't

                                            go back quite far enough to see what was actually said about

                                            your submission when it was considered in kingdom; it had

                                            already been changed to <da Modena> when it was sent to

                                            external commentary, since that's the spelling that was

                                            considered on the August 1999 LoAR

                                            (http://heraldry. sca.org/loar/ 1999/08/lar. html).



                                            > As far as dei is concerned, when they print Lorenzo de' Medici the ' takes =

                                            > the place if the i for some strange reason.=A0 I can't figure out why.=A0 B=



                                            The apostrophe represents an omitted letter (much like the apostrophe

                                            in "don't" represents an omitted <o>). This practice of abbreviating

                                            words by omitting specific letters was a way for scribes to save space

                                            when copying manuscripts. In <de'>, the apostrophe is just an

                                            indication that the <i> has been removed.



                                            -Aryanhwy



                                            --

                                            vita sine literis mors est

                                            http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/


























                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Sara L Uckelman
                                            ... Actually, that wasn t me who said that (I m not sure who it was). This is not something I m familiar with (cities having gender), and I do not know if it
                                            Message 21 of 28 , May 11 5:44 AM
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                                              Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                                              > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=

                                              Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                                              This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                                              and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                                              Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.

                                              -Aryanhwy


                                              --
                                              vita sine literis mors est
                                              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                            • Maria Buchanan
                                              Maybe it was Coblaith.  But someone said it.  You saw it.  Now I m getting crazy.  I was really tired last night when I was answering emails, so I don t
                                              Message 22 of 28 , May 11 9:10 AM
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                                                Maybe it was Coblaith.  But someone said it.  You saw it. 
                                                Now I'm getting crazy.  I was really tired last night when I was answering emails, so I don't remember too much.
                                                VERY long weekend.  But REALLY good.
                                                Maria

                                                --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

                                                From: Sara L Uckelman <liana@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Italian names
                                                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 7:44 AM








                                                Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                                                > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=

                                                Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                                                This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                                                and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                                                Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.

                                                -Aryanhwy

                                                --
                                                vita sine literis mors est
                                                http://www.ellipsis .cx/~liana/















                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                                                In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In some langauge, the concept IT is an alien one.... Labhaoise
                                                Message 23 of 28 , May 14 11:34 AM
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                                                  In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In some langauge, the concept IT is an alien one....
                                                  Labhaoise

                                                  Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Quoth Maria Buchanan:
                                                  > > You said that cities are considered female, so Maria di Modena beco=
                                                  >
                                                  > Actually, that wasn't me who said that (I'm not sure who it was).
                                                  > This is not something I'm familiar with (cities having gender),
                                                  > and I do not know if it is something which is the case in Modern
                                                  > Italian only, or if is also found in medieval Italian.
                                                  >
                                                  > -Aryanhwy
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > vita sine literis mors est
                                                  > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                                  >
                                                • Sara L Uckelman
                                                  ... Note that there is a difference between the grammatical gender of a word in a language which inflects nouns and adjectives based on their gender, and the
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , May 14 12:22 PM
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                                                    Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                                                    > In most langauges, english being an exception, EVERYTHING has a gender. In so

                                                    Note that there is a difference between the grammatical gender
                                                    of a word in a language which inflects nouns and adjectives
                                                    based on their gender, and the more general concept of
                                                    anthropomorphic "gender" (such as the tendency to call ships
                                                    "she"). Quite often, the grammatical gender does not agree
                                                    with the expected anthropomorphic or sexual gender; for example,
                                                    there are languages where the grammatical gender of animal
                                                    names for both sexes are the same (usually both masculine).
                                                    Thus, even if cities are anthropomorphized as being feminine,
                                                    this does not entail that the grammatical gender of city names
                                                    in inflected languages is always feminine. (For example, in
                                                    Latin, you'll find city names which are masculine, feminine, and
                                                    neuter in gender).

                                                    -Aryanhwy





                                                    --
                                                    vita sine literis mors est
                                                    http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
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