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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Heraldry question

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  • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
    ... So long as it s drawn carefully (so that it doesn t look like any reserved or restricted charge), an orle of ivy should be just fine. Several have been
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 30, 2008
      Caitilin inghean ui Cheallaigh wrote:
      > What are the rules for wreaths of ivy?

      So long as it's drawn carefully (so that it doesn't look like any
      reserved or restricted charge), an orle of ivy should be just fine.
      Several have been registered in the last 5 or 6 years
      <http://oanda.sca.org:80/oanda_bp.cgi?p=orle+of+ivy>.

      > Can I use an ivy vine as a line of separation?

      Only if you can find evidence that they were used so in the 16th
      century or before. Complex lines of division invented after our period
      are generally not allowed, because they contravene the requirement that
      all submissions be period in style and content
      <http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html>.

      > I found the templates for these on a site called Pennsic traceable
      > art, and would like to incorporate one or the other in my device.

      The Pennsic Traceable Art Project does offer a vine of ivy, but it's
      not a line of division, just a charge that can be used on the field
      like any other (including other line-like charges such as swords or
      arrows). Several of those have been registered recently, too
      <http://oanda.sca.org:80/oanda_bp.cgi?p=ivy+vine>, so a device
      incorporating one or more shouldn't cause a problem.


      Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
      Kingdom of Ansteorra
      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
    • Kristen Praiswater
      Thank you so much for the help and the explanations of everything, this helps quite a bit and answers all of my questions.  You are very much appreciated.
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 1 9:48 AM
        Thank you so much for the help and the explanations of everything, this helps quite a bit and answers all of my questions.  You are very much appreciated.

        Caitilin inghean ui Cheallaigh
        a.k.a
        Kristen

        --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...> wrote:
        From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Heraldry question
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:05 PM











        Caitilin inghean ui Cheallaigh wrote:

        > What are the rules for wreaths of ivy?



        So long as it's drawn carefully (so that it doesn't look like any

        reserved or restricted charge), an orle of ivy should be just fine.

        Several have been registered in the last 5 or 6 years

        <http://oanda. sca.org:80/ oanda_bp. cgi?p=orle+ of+ivy>.



        > Can I use an ivy vine as a line of separation?



        Only if you can find evidence that they were used so in the 16th

        century or before. Complex lines of division invented after our period

        are generally not allowed, because they contravene the requirement that

        all submissions be period in style and content

        <http://heraldry. sca.org/heraldry /laurel/rfs. html>.



        > I found the templates for these on a site called Pennsic traceable

        > art, and would like to incorporate one or the other in my device.



        The Pennsic Traceable Art Project does offer a vine of ivy, but it's

        not a line of division, just a charge that can be used on the field

        like any other (including other line-like charges such as swords or

        arrows). Several of those have been registered recently, too

        <http://oanda. sca.org:80/ oanda_bp. cgi?p=ivy+ vine>, so a device

        incorporating one or more shouldn't cause a problem.



        Coblaith Mhuimhneach

        Barony of Bryn Gwlad

        Kingdom of Ansteorra

        <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>





























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kristen
        Hi all, I have a question. I ve finally made up my mind about a persona, and working on a device. The quetions are. Can I intermix an English first name
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 6, 2009
          Hi all, I have a question. I've finally made up my mind about a persona, and working on a device. The quetions are. Can I intermix an English first name with a Lowland Scots last name. The name I want to use is Gillian Stewart. Now on to questions about a device. Can I put a fox proper on a colored field or do I need to put it on a metal? Thanks for all the help and advice, I look forward to seeing your answers.

          Kristen
        • nightflyer0ne
          Okay, I m really new at this, so take my advice with a large grain of salt...and compare it to other responses that you get. My understanding on the name issue
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 6, 2009
            Okay, I'm really new at this, so take my advice with a large grain of salt...and compare it to other responses that you get.

            My understanding on the name issue is that mixing is okay if the two areas had contact with each other during your chosen time period. I assume the Low Land Scots area is on the border with England, so I'd also assume that there would have been quite a bit of cross-border traffic. My guess would be that you are okay there.

            As for your fox, he is a dark color, and so would not show up well against another color. There isn't enough contrast there, unfortunately. You are better off choosing a metal field instead.

            Again, this is the advice of a total newbie, but I have been reading up on these things.

            Heather

            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" <spellsinger28@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi all, I have a question. I've finally made up my mind about a persona, and working on a device. The quetions are. Can I intermix an English first name with a Lowland Scots last name. The name I want to use is Gillian Stewart. Now on to questions about a device. Can I put a fox proper on a colored field or do I need to put it on a metal? Thanks for all the help and advice, I look forward to seeing your answers.
            >
            > Kristen
            >
          • Kristen Praiswater
            Thank you Heather, everything does make sense now that I m starting to hear it from another person.   Kristen ... From: nightflyer0ne
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 6, 2009
              Thank you Heather, everything does make sense now that I'm starting to hear it from another person.
               
              Kristen

              --- On Tue, 10/6/09, nightflyer0ne <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


              From: nightflyer0ne <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Heraldry question
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 2:58 PM


               



              Okay, I'm really new at this, so take my advice with a large grain of salt....and compare it to other responses that you get.

              My understanding on the name issue is that mixing is okay if the two areas had contact with each other during your chosen time period. I assume the Low Land Scots area is on the border with England, so I'd also assume that there would have been quite a bit of cross-border traffic. My guess would be that you are okay there.

              As for your fox, he is a dark color, and so would not show up well against another color. There isn't enough contrast there, unfortunately. You are better off choosing a metal field instead.

              Again, this is the advice of a total newbie, but I have been reading up on these things.

              Heather

              --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, "Kristen" <spellsinger28@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi all, I have a question. I've finally made up my mind about a persona, and working on a device. The quetions are. Can I intermix an English first name with a Lowland Scots last name. The name I want to use is Gillian Stewart. Now on to questions about a device. Can I put a fox proper on a colored field or do I need to put it on a metal? Thanks for all the help and advice, I look forward to seeing your answers.
              >
              > Kristen
              >
















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            • Coblaith Muimnech
              ... Some scholars consider Scots to be a language closely related to English, and others consider it to be in fact a dialect of English
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 6, 2009
                Kristen wrote:
                > Can I intermix an English first name with a Lowland Scots last name.

                Some scholars consider Scots to be a language closely related to
                English, and others consider it to be in fact a dialect of English
                <http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/
                scotnames101.shtml#footnote1>. Either way, its use in combination
                with English (other than Anglo-Saxon or Old English) is
                unexceptional, and will cause no difficulty with registration <http://
                www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/sca/weirdness_table.html>.

                > The name I want to use is Gillian Stewart.

                We can check to see if that's reasonable. . .

                "Gillian" is dated to 1273 in E.G. Withycombe's _The Oxford
                Dictionary of English Christian Names_ and to 1303 in P. H. Reaney
                and R. M. Wilson's _A Dictionary of English Surnames_, according to
                Talan Gwynek's "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English
                Surnames" <http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/
                reaneyintro.html>. It can also be found as a feminine given name in
                Latinized contexts in records from 1238 Devon <http://
                heraldry.sca.org/names/english/devonfem1238.html> and 1256
                Northumberland <http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/
                northumberland.html>, and in a marriage records from Glouchestershire
                from 1574 <http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/oldbury.html>. (The
                articles to which I gave URLs are all no-photocopy resource <http://
                heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIXH>, which means
                if you use one as a source you just need to cite it in the
                documentation summary on your name submission form, and don't have to
                print any part of it out for your supporting documents.)

                "Stewart" can be dated as a byname to c. 1370-88, 1423, and 1522,
                according to Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 1901 <http://www.s-
                gabriel.org/1901>. The earliest of these dates is temporally
                compatible with the earlier dates for "Gillian" and the latest with
                the Glouchestershire citation. (Academy of Saint Gabriel reports are
                also no-photocopy resources.) There are a few additional online
                articles dating "Stewart" to the 13th or 14th <http://www.s-
                gabriel.org/names/symonFreser/scottish14/scottish14.html> and the
                late 15th or 16th century <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ursula/
                ordermembers.html> <http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/lowland16/
                >. (If you use them, however, you will have to print them out and
                attach copies to your submission forms.)

                So, "Gillian Stewart" looks like a very plausible name for pretty
                much any period between the middle of the 13th century and the end of
                the 16th. (And you can prove it without making dozens of pages of
                photocopies, which is an all-around good thing.)

                By the way, "Stewart" is just a distinctively Scottish variant of the
                English byname "Steward", which is dated in that spelling to 1587 in
                Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 2610 <http://www.s-gabriel.org/
                2610>. That's temporally compatible with the Glouchestershire
                citation for "Gillian". So if you have an English persona, you could
                use the entirely English (and equally easy to document) "Gillian
                Steward".


                > Can I put a fox proper on a colored field or do I need to put it on
                > a metal?

                The table of conventional proper colorings in College of Arms'
                official Glossary of Terms <http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/
                coagloss.html#proper> defines a fox proper as, "[r]ed with black
                'socks' and white at tip of tail," and categorizes is as being part
                of the color tincture class. If foxes weren't covered in that table,
                you could determine what types of fields you could place one on by
                turning to Part VIII.2 of the Rules for Submissions of the College of
                Arms of the S.C.A. <http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/
                rfs.html#8.2>, where it says, "Good contrast exists between. . .[a]
                metal and a charge, blazoned as proper, that is predominantly dark,"
                and, "The field must have good contrast with every charge placed
                directly on it. . .."


                Coblaith Muimnech
                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                <http://coblaith.net>
              • Kristen Praiswater
                Has anyone ever told you that you re wonderful.  Thank you for everything, I really appreaciate all the help, advice, and all of the useful links.   Kristen
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 6, 2009
                  Has anyone ever told you that you're wonderful.  Thank you for everything, I really appreaciate all the help, advice, and all of the useful links.
                   
                  Kristen

                  --- On Tue, 10/6/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:


                  From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Heraldry question
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 5:15 PM


                   



                  Kristen wrote:
                  > Can I intermix an English first name with a Lowland Scots last name.

                  Some scholars consider Scots to be a language closely related to
                  English, and others consider it to be in fact a dialect of English
                  <http://www.medieval scotland. org/scotnames/
                  scotnames101. shtml#footnote1> . Either way, its use in combination
                  with English (other than Anglo-Saxon or Old English) is
                  unexceptional, and will cause no difficulty with registration <http://
                  www.ellipsis. cx/~liana/ sca/weirdness_ table.html> .

                  > The name I want to use is Gillian Stewart.

                  We can check to see if that's reasonable. . .

                  "Gillian" is dated to 1273 in E.G. Withycombe's _The Oxford
                  Dictionary of English Christian Names_ and to 1303 in P. H. Reaney
                  and R. M. Wilson's _A Dictionary of English Surnames_, according to
                  Talan Gwynek's "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English
                  Surnames" <http://heraldry. sca.org/heraldry /laurel/
                  reaneyintro. html>. It can also be found as a feminine given name in
                  Latinized contexts in records from 1238 Devon <http://
                  heraldry.sca. org/names/ english/devonfem 1238.html> and 1256
                  Northumberland <http://heraldry. sca.org/names/ english/
                  northumberland. html>, and in a marriage records from Glouchestershire
                  from 1574 <http://heraldry. sca.org/names/ english/oldbury. html>. (The
                  articles to which I gave URLs are all no-photocopy resource <http://
                  heraldry.sca. org/heraldry/ laurel/admin. html#APPENDIXH> , which means
                  if you use one as a source you just need to cite it in the
                  documentation summary on your name submission form, and don't have to
                  print any part of it out for your supporting documents.)

                  "Stewart" can be dated as a byname to c. 1370-88, 1423, and 1522,
                  according to Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 1901 <http://www.s-
                  gabriel.org/ 1901>. The earliest of these dates is temporally
                  compatible with the earlier dates for "Gillian" and the latest with
                  the Glouchestershire citation. (Academy of Saint Gabriel reports are
                  also no-photocopy resources.) There are a few additional online
                  articles dating "Stewart" to the 13th or 14th <http://www.s-
                  gabriel.org/ names/symonFrese r/scottish14/ scottish14. html> and the
                  late 15th or 16th century <http://www.s- gabriel.org/ names/ursula/
                  ordermembers. html> <http://medievalscot land.org/ scotnames/ lowland16/
                  >. (If you use them, however, you will have to print them out and
                  attach copies to your submission forms.)

                  So, "Gillian Stewart" looks like a very plausible name for pretty
                  much any period between the middle of the 13th century and the end of
                  the 16th. (And you can prove it without making dozens of pages of
                  photocopies, which is an all-around good thing.)

                  By the way, "Stewart" is just a distinctively Scottish variant of the
                  English byname "Steward", which is dated in that spelling to 1587 in
                  Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 2610 <http://www.s- gabriel.org/
                  2610>. That's temporally compatible with the Glouchestershire
                  citation for "Gillian". So if you have an English persona, you could
                  use the entirely English (and equally easy to document) "Gillian
                  Steward".

                  > Can I put a fox proper on a colored field or do I need to put it on
                  > a metal?

                  The table of conventional proper colorings in College of Arms'
                  official Glossary of Terms <http://heraldry. sca.org/heraldry /
                  coagloss.html# proper> defines a fox proper as, "[r]ed with black
                  'socks' and white at tip of tail," and categorizes is as being part
                  of the color tincture class. If foxes weren't covered in that table,
                  you could determine what types of fields you could place one on by
                  turning to Part VIII.2 of the Rules for Submissions of the College of
                  Arms of the S.C.A. <http://heraldry. sca.org/heraldry /laurel/
                  rfs.html#8.2> , where it says, "Good contrast exists between. . .[a]
                  metal and a charge, blazoned as proper, that is predominantly dark,"
                  and, "The field must have good contrast with every charge placed
                  directly on it. . .."

                  Coblaith Muimnech
                  <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
                  <http://coblaith. net>



















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