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Re: [SCA Newcomers] nautical personae (was: New to the group)

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  • Jeff Gedney
    ... to obtain ... . Thanks Ciaran! It s a little out of date, and I have to sit down and go over the links
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 9, 2008
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      > The East Kingdom site for St Erasmus (from whom one should be able
      to
      obtain
      > broader information) is:
      <http://members.iconn.net/~gedney/StErasmus.htm>.

      Thanks Ciaran!

      It's a little out of date, and I have to sit down and go over the
      links
      pages, but that's my baby.

      I am Capt Elias Gedney and I am happy to answer any specific
      questions
      you might have. I have done a fair amount of research and have taught
      several courses on creating believable and more or less accurate to
      place and time nautical personae.
      It is true that the mechanics of the nautical persona will vary by
      time
      and place, but there are wide swaths of overlap, where ship
      technologies or common dreess stayed relatively static over a largish
      chunk of time, but these steady states were punctuated by periods of
      intense change. Knowing when you live, and where is vital to creating
      a
      characterization that might have stepped out of a history book, as
      opposed to one that might have stepped off a Junior High School stage.

      So Please, do tell, what tiem and place are yoyu interested?

      Capt Elias Gedney
      East Kingdom
      Stratford, CT USA
    • antirlady
      I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven t decided the when yet.
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 11, 2008
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        I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I
        will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven't
        decided the when yet. I am looking into the history of women pirates at
        this time and while there werent many, there were a few.

        An Tir Lady
      • jeffthegeek1974
        If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I believe commanded
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 17, 2008
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          If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your
          flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I
          believe commanded a fleet of thousands of large junks and other
          smaller vessels. Vikings were also known to have some female Pirates.
          I don't know of many Scottish, but they might exist. I am by no means
          an expert.

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "antirlady" <zsoka@...> wrote:
          >
          > I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I
          > will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven't
          > decided the when yet. I am looking into the history of women pirates at
          > this time and while there werent many, there were a few.
          >
          > An Tir Lady
          >
        • Otto von Schwyz
          There were a few female pirates around the east coast of the US; all out of period.  My suggestion is to look towards the Med and the Indian Ocean area.  You
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 17, 2008
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            There were a few female pirates around the east coast of the US; all out of period.  My suggestion is to look towards the Med and the Indian Ocean area.  You might find some women pirates in the history books.
             
            Otto

            --- On Mon, 11/17/08, jeffthegeek1974 <jeffthegeek1974@...> wrote:

            From: jeffthegeek1974 <jeffthegeek1974@...>
            Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: New to the group
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 11:58 AM






            If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your
            flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I
            believe commanded a fleet of thousands of large junks and other
            smaller vessels. Vikings were also known to have some female Pirates.
            I don't know of many Scottish, but they might exist. I am by no means
            an expert.

            --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, "antirlady" <zsoka@...> wrote:
            >
            > I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I
            > will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven't
            > decided the when yet. I am looking into the history of women pirates at
            > this time and while there werent many, there were a few.
            >
            > An Tir Lady
            >


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeff Gedney
            ... Sounds like you are referring to Ching Xie (Shih)... Alas she is, like nearly all female pirates, far outside of period. Ching Xie is late 19th century.
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 17, 2008
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              > If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your
              > flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I
              > believe commanded a fleet of thousands of large junks and other
              > smaller vessels.

              Sounds like you are referring to Ching Xie (Shih)...
              Alas she is, like nearly all female pirates, far outside of period.
              Ching Xie is late 19th century.

              > Vikings were also known to have some female Pirates.
              Nope.
              the only one I have found any allusion to is not exactly a pirate, but
              comes from a legend retold by the "historian" Saxo Germanicus.
              The story of Alfhild. But if you read the ACTUAL story (not one of the
              retwellings with the purpose of selling a feminist viewpoint, such as
              Joan Druetts fevered reimagination of it in her book "She Captains")
              you can quickly note the fantastical elements in the story.
              the concordance of the the name AlfHild, (literally "elfgirl") and her
              beau who crosses the seas to find her Alf (elf), for example, aslo
              that she was so beautiful that he had to be kept locked up by her
              father lest she drive all men mad with passion, and she was guarded by
              two dragons, that Alf killed the drafons but she fled from him in mens'
              clothes and went to seam, and that they fought a fierce battle upon an
              ice floe, where he did not know she was a woman until he knocked her
              helm away and then he instantly grabbed her and made love to her on the
              spot and in which she was willingly taken and turned into the perfect
              wife by his manhood. Bleah.
              Myth.
              not fact. Most Scholars place her in the same Eddic tradition of
              Shieldmaidens as BrunHild, closely tied with the concept of Valkeries.


              Keep in mind that what _we_ consider history and what Saxo Germanicus
              considered history are vastly different things, and it is not well
              considered to consider them of the same sort.

              The problem with early "Historians" is that they nearly all of them
              include myths into histories, since what they were recording was not
              actual fact, but stories that went into making the social context of
              the societies they are chronicalling.
              For example, Herodotus included stories of Scythian Amazons in a
              location where they were not known to exist because the people who
              lived there used them as an illustration of their prowess in conquering
              them as a part of their "founding story". He also included a number of
              other tall tales that were pointedly false to fact. Yet he is
              considered the "Father of History".
              This is because there was no separation of a people's mythos and teh
              structure of religious stories from the factual and prosaic recording
              of events, which we consider history today.

              > I don't know of many Scottish, but they might exist. I am by no means
              > an expert.

              If you are using as a source the book "She Captains" by by Joan Druett,
              forget it, Joan Druett has a big personal axe to grind in that book and
              she reinterprets data and often completely pulls data out of thin air
              and presents it as fact (in the Alfhild chapter for example, she
              creates, equips and presents as fact entire class of female viking
              warrior that has no foundation in any thing other than her own hopeful
              imagination).

              Female pirates were EXCEEDINGLY rare.
              Personally I know of none (that actually were Pirates as we think of
              the term) that exist in the European Context _in the SCA's Covered
              Period_.
              Grania Omalley, for example, may never have gotten in the rowboats with
              the men she sheltered and directed ( as the wife of the o'Malley) more
              than a few time (Irish Sea Piracy was done in rowboats, all popular
              fiction notwithstanding) She certainly never left the Irish Sea except
              to go to England. I certainly dont regard her as a "pirate" in the
              manner of Anne Bonney from two centuries later.

              Most of the cited Stories of Female pirates in period are legendary, or
              are stories of facilitors of piracy, such as Grania Omalley, or women
              who had Storehouses set up or otherwise provided safe haven for male
              pirates.

              It sucks, but history is often unfair.

              Capt Elias
            • jeffthegeek1974
              ... Sounds like what I recall, though I thought she was earlier. It was a long time ago that I looked at that stuff. ... Could have been Joan Druett I remember
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 18, 2008
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                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Gedney" <gedney@...> wrote:
                >
                > > If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your
                > > flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I
                > > believe commanded a fleet of thousands of large junks and other
                > > smaller vessels.
                >
                > Sounds like you are referring to Ching Xie (Shih)...
                > Alas she is, like nearly all female pirates, far outside of period.
                > Ching Xie is late 19th century.
                >

                Sounds like what I recall, though I thought she was earlier. It was a
                long time ago that I looked at that stuff.

                > > Vikings were also known to have some female Pirates.
                > Nope.
                > the only one I have found any allusion to is not exactly a pirate, but
                > comes from a legend retold by the "historian" Saxo Germanicus.
                > The story of Alfhild. But if you read the ACTUAL story (not one of the
                > retwellings with the purpose of selling a feminist viewpoint, such as
                > Joan Druetts fevered reimagination of it in her book "She Captains")
                > you can quickly note the fantastical elements in the story.
                > the concordance of the the name AlfHild, (literally "elfgirl") and her
                > beau who crosses the seas to find her Alf (elf), for example, aslo
                > that she was so beautiful that he had to be kept locked up by her
                > father lest she drive all men mad with passion, and she was guarded by
                > two dragons, that Alf killed the drafons but she fled from him in mens'
                > clothes and went to seam, and that they fought a fierce battle upon an
                > ice floe, where he did not know she was a woman until he knocked her
                > helm away and then he instantly grabbed her and made love to her on the
                > spot and in which she was willingly taken and turned into the perfect
                > wife by his manhood. Bleah.
                > Myth.
                > not fact. Most Scholars place her in the same Eddic tradition of
                > Shieldmaidens as BrunHild, closely tied with the concept of Valkeries.
                >
                >
                > Keep in mind that what _we_ consider history and what Saxo Germanicus
                > considered history are vastly different things, and it is not well
                > considered to consider them of the same sort.
                >
                > The problem with early "Historians" is that they nearly all of them
                > include myths into histories, since what they were recording was not
                > actual fact, but stories that went into making the social context of
                > the societies they are chronicalling.
                > For example, Herodotus included stories of Scythian Amazons in a
                > location where they were not known to exist because the people who
                > lived there used them as an illustration of their prowess in conquering
                > them as a part of their "founding story". He also included a number of
                > other tall tales that were pointedly false to fact. Yet he is
                > considered the "Father of History".
                > This is because there was no separation of a people's mythos and teh
                > structure of religious stories from the factual and prosaic recording
                > of events, which we consider history today.
                >
                > > I don't know of many Scottish, but they might exist. I am by no means
                > > an expert.
                >
                > If you are using as a source the book "She Captains" by by Joan Druett,
                > forget it, Joan Druett has a big personal axe to grind in that book and
                > she reinterprets data and often completely pulls data out of thin air
                > and presents it as fact (in the Alfhild chapter for example, she
                > creates, equips and presents as fact entire class of female viking
                > warrior that has no foundation in any thing other than her own hopeful
                > imagination).
                >

                Could have been Joan Druett I remember reading ages ago, that was back
                in highschool and that was a number of years ago.

                > Female pirates were EXCEEDINGLY rare.
                > Personally I know of none (that actually were Pirates as we think of
                > the term) that exist in the European Context _in the SCA's Covered
                > Period_.
                > Grania Omalley, for example, may never have gotten in the rowboats with
                > the men she sheltered and directed ( as the wife of the o'Malley) more
                > than a few time (Irish Sea Piracy was done in rowboats, all popular
                > fiction notwithstanding) She certainly never left the Irish Sea except
                > to go to England. I certainly dont regard her as a "pirate" in the
                > manner of Anne Bonney from two centuries later.
                >
                > Most of the cited Stories of Female pirates in period are legendary, or
                > are stories of facilitors of piracy, such as Grania Omalley, or women
                > who had Storehouses set up or otherwise provided safe haven for male
                > pirates.
                >
                > It sucks, but history is often unfair.
                >
                > Capt Elias
                >


                Interesting info.
              • Jeff Gedney
                ... at ... If you are choosing a Scottish nautical persona, you have two directions to look in. Lowlander (Edinburgh and the Firth - Strong English influence)
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 18, 2008
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                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "antirlady" <zsoka@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I
                  > will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven't
                  > decided the when yet. I am looking into the history of women pirates
                  at
                  > this time and while there werent many, there were a few.
                  >
                  > An Tir Lady
                  >

                  If you are choosing a Scottish nautical persona, you have two
                  directions to look in. Lowlander (Edinburgh and the Firth - Strong
                  English influence) and Islander (Faroe Islands and similar northern
                  coasters - Strong Norse/Viking influence).
                  The Scottish Highlander is right out.
                  Is there a time period you are interested in?
                  Capt Elias
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