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nautical personae (was: New to the group)

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  • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
    ... The details of your persona will depend greatly on the period and culture within which you set it. A Norse trader from the 10th century will be very
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 9, 2008
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      An Tir Lady wrote:
      > I am interested in information for developing a natical persona and
      > would appreciate any help on where to research this.

      The details of your persona will depend greatly on the period and
      culture within which you set it. A Norse trader from the 10th century
      will be very different from a 16th-century Spanish seaman, for example.
      Much of your research, therefore, will have to wait until you know
      more about whom you want to portray.

      The SCA-Nautical Yahoo! Group
      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Nautical/> might make a good place
      to start learning about the nautical aspects, and some of what you
      learn there might help you narrow down the place and time that fit for
      you. It looks like it used to be a very active group, but the list
      currently sees only moderate traffic.

      There is also a Society-wide guild for those who are interested in
      topics nautical, the Loyal Guild of Saint Erasmus. It was founded in
      An Tir, but the An Tirian website for it apparently went down when AOL
      Hometown shut down; I couldn't find a current one. The folks that run
      the East Kingdom site for the guild could probably get you in touch
      with folks in your area who share your interest, though. And their
      website does have the guild charter and some resources that might come
      in handy <http://members.iconn.net/~gedney/StErasmus.htm>.


      Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
      Kingdom of Ansteorra
      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
    • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      ... Let s be clear about one thing: You can *call yourself* anything you like (though if you chose something obscene you d probably face a good deal of social
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 9, 2008
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        An Tir Lady wrote:
        > . . .is Dierdre an acceptable first name for a persona?

        Let's be clear about one thing: You can *call yourself* anything you
        like (though if you chose something obscene you'd probably face a good
        deal of social censure). Where the rules come in is when you decide to
        register your name with the College of Arms. Registering a name serves
        two primary purposes. First, it makes that name yours and yours alone
        within the S.C.A. Second, it allows you to register armory--heraldic
        badges and a device. Additionally, in some kingdoms you can't get an
        official award scroll unless you have a registered name to go on it, so
        if you lack one and you are given an award you receive only a
        promissory note.

        That understood:

        "Dierdre" is a modern spelling for the name of a Gaelic literary
        character. The only evidence of its use before 1600, with any
        spelling, by a real person relates to a single woman in Scotland in the
        12th century <http://medievalscotland.org/problem/names/deirdre.shtml>,
        <http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/women/
        deirdre.shtml>. If you want to create a realistic medieval name using
        a variant of Dierdre, therefore, you should (1) choose a documented
        Middle Gaelic spelling (see the two articles I just mentioned), and
        combine it with an appropriate byname following the recommendations in
        "A Simple Guide to Constructing 12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names"
        <http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/
        simplescotgaelicnames12.shtml>, or (2) use "Derder" (the documented
        form from 12th-century Latin documents), combined with a Latinized
        version of a Gaelic or Anglian/Scoto-Norman byname, following the
        conventions for names written in Latin in Scotland in the 12th century.
        In the latter case, of course, you'd be creating a documentary form of
        the name, one that you could register and use when writing your name,
        but the vernacular (spoken) form would be Gaelic or Scoto-Norman.
        (There are many English men called "Iohannes", in Latin documents, for
        example, but their buddies wouldn't yell that across the street to get
        their attention. They'd just yell, "John!") You'd probably want to
        work with an experienced consulting herald to figure out what works
        best for your purposes. If you can't find one in your area, let me
        know, and I'll try to help. If you can find one, give her or him the
        URLs I mentioned. It'll help get things off to a running start.

        If you don't want to be from 12th-century Scotland, you'll find a lot
        of information on names from other periods and places in the Medieval
        Names Archive <http://s-gabriel.org/names/>. Start by reading,
        "Choosing a Society Name: Hints for Newcomers", and then move to the
        naming guide(s) for the culture(s) that interest you.


        Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        Kingdom of Ansteorra
        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      • Ciaran ui Cainnech
        The East Kingdom site for St Erasmus (from whom one should be able to obtain broader information) is: . Cheers,
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 9, 2008
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          The East Kingdom site for St Erasmus (from whom one should be able to obtain
          broader information) is: <http://members.iconn.net/~gedney/StErasmus.htm>.

          Cheers,
          Ciaran

          On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...
          > wrote:

          > An Tir Lady wrote:
          > > I am interested in information for developing a natical persona and
          > > would appreciate any help on where to research this.
          >
          > The details of your persona will depend greatly on the period and
          > culture within which you set it. A Norse trader from the 10th century
          > will be very different from a 16th-century Spanish seaman, for example.
          > Much of your research, therefore, will have to wait until you know
          > more about whom you want to portray.
          >
          > The SCA-Nautical Yahoo! Group
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Nautical/> might make a good place
          > to start learning about the nautical aspects, and some of what you
          > learn there might help you narrow down the place and time that fit for
          > you. It looks like it used to be a very active group, but the list
          > currently sees only moderate traffic.
          >
          > There is also a Society-wide guild for those who are interested in
          > topics nautical, the Loyal Guild of Saint Erasmus. It was founded in
          > An Tir, but the An Tirian website for it apparently went down when AOL
          > Hometown shut down; I couldn't find a current one. The folks that run
          > the East Kingdom site for the guild could probably get you in touch
          > with folks in your area who share your interest, though. And their
          > website does have the guild charter and some resources that might come
          > in handy <http://members.iconn.net/~gedney/StErasmus.htm<http://members.iconn.net/%7Egedney/StErasmus.htm>
          > >.
          >
          > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          > Kingdom of Ansteorra
          > <mailto:Coblaith@... <Coblaith%40sbcglobal.net>>
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeff Gedney
          ... to obtain ... . Thanks Ciaran! It s a little out of date, and I have to sit down and go over the links
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 9, 2008
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            > The East Kingdom site for St Erasmus (from whom one should be able
            to
            obtain
            > broader information) is:
            <http://members.iconn.net/~gedney/StErasmus.htm>.

            Thanks Ciaran!

            It's a little out of date, and I have to sit down and go over the
            links
            pages, but that's my baby.

            I am Capt Elias Gedney and I am happy to answer any specific
            questions
            you might have. I have done a fair amount of research and have taught
            several courses on creating believable and more or less accurate to
            place and time nautical personae.
            It is true that the mechanics of the nautical persona will vary by
            time
            and place, but there are wide swaths of overlap, where ship
            technologies or common dreess stayed relatively static over a largish
            chunk of time, but these steady states were punctuated by periods of
            intense change. Knowing when you live, and where is vital to creating
            a
            characterization that might have stepped out of a history book, as
            opposed to one that might have stepped off a Junior High School stage.

            So Please, do tell, what tiem and place are yoyu interested?

            Capt Elias Gedney
            East Kingdom
            Stratford, CT USA
          • antirlady
            I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven t decided the when yet.
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 11, 2008
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              I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I
              will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven't
              decided the when yet. I am looking into the history of women pirates at
              this time and while there werent many, there were a few.

              An Tir Lady
            • jeffthegeek1974
              If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I believe commanded
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 17, 2008
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                If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your
                flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I
                believe commanded a fleet of thousands of large junks and other
                smaller vessels. Vikings were also known to have some female Pirates.
                I don't know of many Scottish, but they might exist. I am by no means
                an expert.

                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "antirlady" <zsoka@...> wrote:
                >
                > I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I
                > will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven't
                > decided the when yet. I am looking into the history of women pirates at
                > this time and while there werent many, there were a few.
                >
                > An Tir Lady
                >
              • Otto von Schwyz
                There were a few female pirates around the east coast of the US; all out of period.  My suggestion is to look towards the Med and the Indian Ocean area.  You
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 17, 2008
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                  There were a few female pirates around the east coast of the US; all out of period.  My suggestion is to look towards the Med and the Indian Ocean area.  You might find some women pirates in the history books.
                   
                  Otto

                  --- On Mon, 11/17/08, jeffthegeek1974 <jeffthegeek1974@...> wrote:

                  From: jeffthegeek1974 <jeffthegeek1974@...>
                  Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: New to the group
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 11:58 AM






                  If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your
                  flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I
                  believe commanded a fleet of thousands of large junks and other
                  smaller vessels. Vikings were also known to have some female Pirates.
                  I don't know of many Scottish, but they might exist. I am by no means
                  an expert.

                  --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, "antirlady" <zsoka@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I
                  > will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven't
                  > decided the when yet. I am looking into the history of women pirates at
                  > this time and while there werent many, there were a few.
                  >
                  > An Tir Lady
                  >


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jeff Gedney
                  ... Sounds like you are referring to Ching Xie (Shih)... Alas she is, like nearly all female pirates, far outside of period. Ching Xie is late 19th century.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 17, 2008
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                    > If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your
                    > flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I
                    > believe commanded a fleet of thousands of large junks and other
                    > smaller vessels.

                    Sounds like you are referring to Ching Xie (Shih)...
                    Alas she is, like nearly all female pirates, far outside of period.
                    Ching Xie is late 19th century.

                    > Vikings were also known to have some female Pirates.
                    Nope.
                    the only one I have found any allusion to is not exactly a pirate, but
                    comes from a legend retold by the "historian" Saxo Germanicus.
                    The story of Alfhild. But if you read the ACTUAL story (not one of the
                    retwellings with the purpose of selling a feminist viewpoint, such as
                    Joan Druetts fevered reimagination of it in her book "She Captains")
                    you can quickly note the fantastical elements in the story.
                    the concordance of the the name AlfHild, (literally "elfgirl") and her
                    beau who crosses the seas to find her Alf (elf), for example, aslo
                    that she was so beautiful that he had to be kept locked up by her
                    father lest she drive all men mad with passion, and she was guarded by
                    two dragons, that Alf killed the drafons but she fled from him in mens'
                    clothes and went to seam, and that they fought a fierce battle upon an
                    ice floe, where he did not know she was a woman until he knocked her
                    helm away and then he instantly grabbed her and made love to her on the
                    spot and in which she was willingly taken and turned into the perfect
                    wife by his manhood. Bleah.
                    Myth.
                    not fact. Most Scholars place her in the same Eddic tradition of
                    Shieldmaidens as BrunHild, closely tied with the concept of Valkeries.


                    Keep in mind that what _we_ consider history and what Saxo Germanicus
                    considered history are vastly different things, and it is not well
                    considered to consider them of the same sort.

                    The problem with early "Historians" is that they nearly all of them
                    include myths into histories, since what they were recording was not
                    actual fact, but stories that went into making the social context of
                    the societies they are chronicalling.
                    For example, Herodotus included stories of Scythian Amazons in a
                    location where they were not known to exist because the people who
                    lived there used them as an illustration of their prowess in conquering
                    them as a part of their "founding story". He also included a number of
                    other tall tales that were pointedly false to fact. Yet he is
                    considered the "Father of History".
                    This is because there was no separation of a people's mythos and teh
                    structure of religious stories from the factual and prosaic recording
                    of events, which we consider history today.

                    > I don't know of many Scottish, but they might exist. I am by no means
                    > an expert.

                    If you are using as a source the book "She Captains" by by Joan Druett,
                    forget it, Joan Druett has a big personal axe to grind in that book and
                    she reinterprets data and often completely pulls data out of thin air
                    and presents it as fact (in the Alfhild chapter for example, she
                    creates, equips and presents as fact entire class of female viking
                    warrior that has no foundation in any thing other than her own hopeful
                    imagination).

                    Female pirates were EXCEEDINGLY rare.
                    Personally I know of none (that actually were Pirates as we think of
                    the term) that exist in the European Context _in the SCA's Covered
                    Period_.
                    Grania Omalley, for example, may never have gotten in the rowboats with
                    the men she sheltered and directed ( as the wife of the o'Malley) more
                    than a few time (Irish Sea Piracy was done in rowboats, all popular
                    fiction notwithstanding) She certainly never left the Irish Sea except
                    to go to England. I certainly dont regard her as a "pirate" in the
                    manner of Anne Bonney from two centuries later.

                    Most of the cited Stories of Female pirates in period are legendary, or
                    are stories of facilitors of piracy, such as Grania Omalley, or women
                    who had Storehouses set up or otherwise provided safe haven for male
                    pirates.

                    It sucks, but history is often unfair.

                    Capt Elias
                  • jeffthegeek1974
                    ... Sounds like what I recall, though I thought she was earlier. It was a long time ago that I looked at that stuff. ... Could have been Joan Druett I remember
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 18, 2008
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                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Gedney" <gedney@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > If you are just looking for a female pirate Chinese might be more your
                      > > flavour. There were scads of Chinese female pirates if I recall one I
                      > > believe commanded a fleet of thousands of large junks and other
                      > > smaller vessels.
                      >
                      > Sounds like you are referring to Ching Xie (Shih)...
                      > Alas she is, like nearly all female pirates, far outside of period.
                      > Ching Xie is late 19th century.
                      >

                      Sounds like what I recall, though I thought she was earlier. It was a
                      long time ago that I looked at that stuff.

                      > > Vikings were also known to have some female Pirates.
                      > Nope.
                      > the only one I have found any allusion to is not exactly a pirate, but
                      > comes from a legend retold by the "historian" Saxo Germanicus.
                      > The story of Alfhild. But if you read the ACTUAL story (not one of the
                      > retwellings with the purpose of selling a feminist viewpoint, such as
                      > Joan Druetts fevered reimagination of it in her book "She Captains")
                      > you can quickly note the fantastical elements in the story.
                      > the concordance of the the name AlfHild, (literally "elfgirl") and her
                      > beau who crosses the seas to find her Alf (elf), for example, aslo
                      > that she was so beautiful that he had to be kept locked up by her
                      > father lest she drive all men mad with passion, and she was guarded by
                      > two dragons, that Alf killed the drafons but she fled from him in mens'
                      > clothes and went to seam, and that they fought a fierce battle upon an
                      > ice floe, where he did not know she was a woman until he knocked her
                      > helm away and then he instantly grabbed her and made love to her on the
                      > spot and in which she was willingly taken and turned into the perfect
                      > wife by his manhood. Bleah.
                      > Myth.
                      > not fact. Most Scholars place her in the same Eddic tradition of
                      > Shieldmaidens as BrunHild, closely tied with the concept of Valkeries.
                      >
                      >
                      > Keep in mind that what _we_ consider history and what Saxo Germanicus
                      > considered history are vastly different things, and it is not well
                      > considered to consider them of the same sort.
                      >
                      > The problem with early "Historians" is that they nearly all of them
                      > include myths into histories, since what they were recording was not
                      > actual fact, but stories that went into making the social context of
                      > the societies they are chronicalling.
                      > For example, Herodotus included stories of Scythian Amazons in a
                      > location where they were not known to exist because the people who
                      > lived there used them as an illustration of their prowess in conquering
                      > them as a part of their "founding story". He also included a number of
                      > other tall tales that were pointedly false to fact. Yet he is
                      > considered the "Father of History".
                      > This is because there was no separation of a people's mythos and teh
                      > structure of religious stories from the factual and prosaic recording
                      > of events, which we consider history today.
                      >
                      > > I don't know of many Scottish, but they might exist. I am by no means
                      > > an expert.
                      >
                      > If you are using as a source the book "She Captains" by by Joan Druett,
                      > forget it, Joan Druett has a big personal axe to grind in that book and
                      > she reinterprets data and often completely pulls data out of thin air
                      > and presents it as fact (in the Alfhild chapter for example, she
                      > creates, equips and presents as fact entire class of female viking
                      > warrior that has no foundation in any thing other than her own hopeful
                      > imagination).
                      >

                      Could have been Joan Druett I remember reading ages ago, that was back
                      in highschool and that was a number of years ago.

                      > Female pirates were EXCEEDINGLY rare.
                      > Personally I know of none (that actually were Pirates as we think of
                      > the term) that exist in the European Context _in the SCA's Covered
                      > Period_.
                      > Grania Omalley, for example, may never have gotten in the rowboats with
                      > the men she sheltered and directed ( as the wife of the o'Malley) more
                      > than a few time (Irish Sea Piracy was done in rowboats, all popular
                      > fiction notwithstanding) She certainly never left the Irish Sea except
                      > to go to England. I certainly dont regard her as a "pirate" in the
                      > manner of Anne Bonney from two centuries later.
                      >
                      > Most of the cited Stories of Female pirates in period are legendary, or
                      > are stories of facilitors of piracy, such as Grania Omalley, or women
                      > who had Storehouses set up or otherwise provided safe haven for male
                      > pirates.
                      >
                      > It sucks, but history is often unfair.
                      >
                      > Capt Elias
                      >


                      Interesting info.
                    • Jeff Gedney
                      ... at ... If you are choosing a Scottish nautical persona, you have two directions to look in. Lowlander (Edinburgh and the Firth - Strong English influence)
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 18, 2008
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                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "antirlady" <zsoka@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I want to thank you all for your help in answering my questions. I
                        > will check out Scotland for developing my nautical persona. I haven't
                        > decided the when yet. I am looking into the history of women pirates
                        at
                        > this time and while there werent many, there were a few.
                        >
                        > An Tir Lady
                        >

                        If you are choosing a Scottish nautical persona, you have two
                        directions to look in. Lowlander (Edinburgh and the Firth - Strong
                        English influence) and Islander (Faroe Islands and similar northern
                        coasters - Strong Norse/Viking influence).
                        The Scottish Highlander is right out.
                        Is there a time period you are interested in?
                        Capt Elias
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