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Native Personas

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  • oldstudent1955
    Good day gentle friends. Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have Iroquois and Lenani Lenape heritage and I m curious as to how that
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 25, 2008
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      Good day gentle friends.
      Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have
      Iroquois and Lenani Lenape heritage and I'm curious as to how that
      would work with a SCA persona based around the early 1500s. I
      currently am a Scottish highlander of that same time, but I'm exploring
      a change.
      Elzbeth
    • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
      There are gentles around with valid Native American personas. There s one (or used to be) in our group in Caerthe, but I don t remember his name. If I find
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 25, 2008
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        There are gentles around with valid Native American personas. There's one (or used to be) in our group in Caerthe, but I don't remember his name. If I find out more, I'll pass it along. Feel free to research and create your own; there were many native tribes in contact with Europeans during the SCA period - you could even base your persona on the contact between the lost Viking tribes that found America before Columbus and Native Americans! Ziddina

        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: "oldstudent1955" <bethgolds@...>
        Good day gentle friends.
        Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have
        Iroquois and Lenani Lenape heritage and I'm curious as to how that
        would work with a SCA persona based around the early 1500s. I
        currently am a Scottish highlander of that same time, but I'm exploring
        a change.
        Elzbeth




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dayspringacres
        What sources would one use to research? This sounds interesting. ... There s one (or used to be) in our group in Caerthe, but I don t remember his name. If I
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 26, 2008
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          What sources would one use to research? This sounds interesting.

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
          >
          > There are gentles around with valid Native American personas.
          There's one (or used to be) in our group in Caerthe, but I don't
          remember his name. If I find out more, I'll pass it along. Feel
          free to research and create your own; there were many native tribes
          in contact with Europeans during the SCA period - you could even
          base your persona on the contact between the lost Viking tribes that
          found America before Columbus and Native Americans! Ziddina
          >
          > -------------- Original message --------------
          > From: "oldstudent1955" <bethgolds@...>
          > Good day gentle friends.
          > Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have
          > Iroquois and Lenani Lenape heritage and I'm curious as to how that
          > would work with a SCA persona based around the early 1500s. I
          > currently am a Scottish highlander of that same time, but I'm
          exploring
          > a change.
          > Elzbeth
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • David Roland
          I know a Knight who has an Aztec persona, so yes you can play an indigenous persona in the SCA. Remember that in period the white folks of Europe such as the
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 26, 2008
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            I know a Knight who has an Aztec persona, so yes you can play an
            indigenous persona in the SCA. Remember that in period the white
            folks of Europe such as the Angles, Saxons, Roman, etc could all be
            considered native depending on when and where they are.

            Ian


            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "oldstudent1955" <bethgolds@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Good day gentle friends.
            > Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have
            > Iroquois and Lenani Lenape heritage and I'm curious as to how that
            > would work with a SCA persona based around the early 1500s. I
            > currently am a Scottish highlander of that same time, but I'm exploring
            > a change.
            > Elzbeth
            >
          • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
            I m guessing (not having researched the Native American tribes for a persona myself...) that one might start with Native American studies, researching the
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 26, 2008
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              I'm guessing (not having researched the Native American tribes for a persona myself...) that one might start with Native American studies, researching the history of the East Coast tribes, paying special attention to the tribes living in the north-eastern areas - perhaps even some tribes native to Canada??? Ziddina

              -------------- Original message --------------
              From: dayspringacres <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
              What sources would one use to research? This sounds interesting.

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
              >
              > There are gentles around with valid Native American personas.
              There's one (or used to be) in our group in Caerthe, but I don't
              remember his name. If I find out more, I'll pass it along. Feel
              free to research and create your own; there were many native tribes
              in contact with Europeans during the SCA period - you could even
              base your persona on the contact between the lost Viking tribes that
              found America before Columbus and Native Americans! Ziddina
              >
              > -------------- Original message --------------
              > From: "oldstudent1955" <bethgolds@...>
              > Good day gentle friends.
              > Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have
              > Iroquois and Lenani Lenape heritage and I'm curious as to how that
              > would work with a SCA persona based around the early 1500s. I
              > currently am a Scottish highlander of that same time, but I'm
              exploring
              > a change.
              > Elzbeth
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Otto von Schwyz
              I know of one personally that has a Cherokee persona and has successfully documented his name. I know of a few individuals that I have come across in the
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 26, 2008
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                I know of one personally that has a Cherokee persona and has successfully
                documented his name. I know of a few individuals that I have come across in
                the years that I have been playing; some with South American tribal personas
                but I haven't come across anyone form the US Northeastern tribes.



                Just like anyone that is interested in a time period and a culture; start
                doing some research in what you are interested in. Then ask the question,
                did the culture have enough interaction with Europeans in our time period.
                Most of the native people personas have some type of back story with
                interaction of the Spanish. Good luck.



                Otto



                -----Original Message-----
                From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of oldstudent1955
                Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:26 PM
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SPAM][SCA Newcomers] Native Personas



                Good day gentle friends.
                Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have Iroquois
                and Lenani Lenape heritage and I'm curious as to how that would work with a
                SCA persona based around the early 1500s. I currently am a Scottish
                highlander of that same time, but I'm exploring a change.
                Elzbeth



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • bethgolds@aol.com
                Thanks to all for the input. I live in Southwestern Canada, about 20 min drive from a wonderful university museum of Native Peoples, and about the same
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 27, 2008
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                  Thanks to all for the input. I live in Southwestern Canada, about 20 min
                  drive from a wonderful university museum of Native Peoples, and about the same
                  distance from a Iroquois recreated village. I'm also a professional
                  historian, so I have ideas of several resources both in print and online. If anyone
                  has any reputable websites that you've found, please let me know. I may work
                  on a persona from the Southwestern Ontario nations.



                  Yours in service,
                  Elzbeth

                  Elzbeth nee Gregor Goldsworthy
                  Shire of Trinovantia Nova

                  (Beth Goldsworthy, St. Thomas)
                  My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dog already thinks I am.
                  "Not knowing is bad, not wanting to know is worse."




                  **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
                  challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
                  calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Roland
                  ... time period. ... Answering yes to the above question in NO LONGER required to have a persona in the SCA. You may have a persona from anywhere you
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 27, 2008
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                    > Then ask the question,
                    > did the culture have enough interaction with Europeans in our
                    time > period.
                    > Most of the native people personas have some type of back story with
                    > interaction of the Spanish. Good luck.
                    > Otto

                    Answering "yes" to the above question in NO LONGER required to have a
                    persona in the SCA. You may have a persona from anywhere you wish
                    and anytime pre-1600.

                    Per SCA Corpora, December 5, 2006 Revision, Introduction (Pg 9 of
                    the .pdf http://www.sca.org/docs/pdf/govdocs.pdf)

                    "For Society members, most of the world, and all of the centuries
                    prior to the 17th, can serve as a source for personal research."

                    That said, it does go on to say, "However, the further you go from
                    the core of Medieval and Renaissance Europe, the less
                    the environment we offer will resemble what someone of your time and
                    country would find natural or homelike. For example, you can be an
                    Asian or African guest at a European court, but you cannot expect
                    others to share your special interests - like any long-term visitor
                    in a foreign land, you are the one who will have to adapt to the
                    customs you find around you. Since members have free choice of what
                    areas they will explore, it follows that Society branches cannot
                    decide to specialize in a specific time and place, since that
                    would make it hard for members there to pursue their own interests in
                    other times and places."

                    You can chooose any place in the world as well as anytime pre-1600
                    irregardless if that place had contact with europe in the pre-1600
                    period.

                    Ian the Green
                  • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                    Oooh, Boy! :) But one could create a Native American persona based on the (at this point, somewhat theoretical) contact between Canadian/Northern U.S.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 27, 2008
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                      Oooh, Boy! :)' But one could create a Native American persona based on the (at this point, somewhat theoretical) contact between Canadian/Northern U.S. tribes and the Vikings - Leif Erikson, and so on!! Also, just to be reeaaaally far-fetched, one could create a Pacific Northwest Native American persona based on tribes in those areas and the (at this point, somewhat theoretical) contact between the Chinese and that area...

                      Plus, I heard somewhere (Discovery Channel?? Nat'l Geographic??) about Sir Francis Drake putting in to port somewhere up in the Pacific Northwest??? Ziddina

                      -------------- Original message --------------
                      From: "Otto von Schwyz" <ottovonschwyz@...>
                      I know of one personally that has a Cherokee persona and has successfully
                      documented his name. I know of a few individuals that I have come across in
                      the years that I have been playing; some with South American tribal personas
                      but I haven't come across anyone form the US Northeastern tribes.

                      Just like anyone that is interested in a time period and a culture; start
                      doing some research in what you are interested in. Then ask the question,
                      did the culture have enough interaction with Europeans in our time period.
                      Most of the native people personas have some type of back story with
                      interaction of the Spanish. Good luck.

                      Otto

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of oldstudent1955
                      Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:26 PM
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SPAM][SCA Newcomers] Native Personas

                      Good day gentle friends.
                      Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have Iroquois
                      and Lenani Lenape heritage and I'm curious as to how that would work with a
                      SCA persona based around the early 1500s. I currently am a Scottish
                      highlander of that same time, but I'm exploring a change.
                      Elzbeth

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                      There are also Melungeon, we are from the same basic area that you find Eastern Nation Cherokee today. The mythology (one of them) is they are decended from a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 27, 2008
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                        There are also Melungeon, we are from the same basic area that you
                        find Eastern Nation Cherokee today. The mythology (one of them) is
                        they are decended from a Portugeuse ship blown off course.
                        Here is some:
                        http://tb2kfulltopic.yuku.com/topic/412
                        http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2002/06/53383
                        http://www.melungeons.com/articles/jun2004.htm

                        Sorry, I couldn't find some of the more "amusing" links.
                        Labhaoise

                        Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                        >
                        > There are gentles around with valid Native American personas.
                        There's one (or used to be) in our group in Caerthe, but I don't
                        remember his name. If I find out more, I'll pass it along. Feel
                        free to research and create your own; there were many native tribes
                        in contact with Europeans during the SCA period - you could even
                        base your persona on the contact between the lost Viking tribes that
                        found America before Columbus and Native Americans! Ziddina
                      • Ron Osceola
                        ... In Virginia we tend to think about european influence starting in the early 1600 s, but the Seminole people in South Florida experiences visitors in the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 27, 2008
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                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "oldstudent1955" <bethgolds@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Good day gentle friends.
                          > Has anyone ever created a persona based on Native peoples? I have
                          > Iroquois and Lenani Lenape heritage and I'm curious as to how that
                          > would work with a SCA persona based around the early 1500s. I
                          > currently am a Scottish highlander of that same time, but I'm exploring
                          > a change.
                          > Elzbeth
                          >

                          In Virginia we tend to think about european influence starting in the early 1600's, but the
                          Seminole people in South Florida experiences visitors in the 1400 and 1500's. I tend to think
                          that a strong case could be made that links the Iroquois people to a 14th century Knights
                          Templar fortification that was found in New England several years ago.
                        • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                          Fascinating! There s a mythology/serendipitous coincidence connecting my persona (North African Berber) with the Hawaiian Islands and the Polynesians - the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 28, 2008
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                            Fascinating! There's a mythology/serendipitous coincidence connecting my persona (North African Berber) with the Hawaiian Islands and the Polynesians - the Hawaiian word "Kahina" (for pretty girl) is the exact same identical word used by the Tuareg Berbers as the name of one of their great queens who fought against the invading Muslim forces. Since the Berbers had contact with the Phoenicians through Carthage, maybe some Berber made it all the way to Hawaii???? Really far-fetched, but fun to speculate about... Ziddina

                            -------------- Original message --------------
                            From: "Labhaoise O'Beachain" <labhaoise_obeachain@...>
                            There are also Melungeon, we are from the same basic area that you
                            find Eastern Nation Cherokee today. The mythology (one of them) is
                            they are decended from a Portugeuse ship blown off course.
                            Here is some:
                            http://tb2kfulltopic.yuku.com/topic/412
                            http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2002/06/53383
                            http://www.melungeons.com/articles/jun2004.htm

                            Sorry, I couldn't find some of the more "amusing" links.
                            Labhaoise

                            Ziddinaaitzumar@... wrote:
                            >
                            > There are gentles around with valid Native American personas.
                            There's one (or used to be) in our group in Caerthe, but I don't
                            remember his name. If I find out more, I'll pass it along. Feel
                            free to research and create your own; there were many native tribes
                            in contact with Europeans during the SCA period - you could even
                            base your persona on the contact between the lost Viking tribes that
                            found America before Columbus and Native Americans! Ziddina




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                            In a message dated 9/27/2008 10:53:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mystborne@yahoo.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 28, 2008
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                              In a message dated 9/27/2008 10:53:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                              mystborne@... writes:

                              <<You can chooose any place in the world as well as anytime pre-1600
                              irregardless if that place had contact with europe in the pre-1600
                              period.>>

                              I suppose you can interpret the wording of what you quoted that way.

                              But I guess my question then is, what is the fun in researching and
                              portraying a character that is so far out of the mainstream of the group that you are
                              unlikely ever to find another person who shares your interest? In always being
                              the outsider who is expected to behave as a guest?
                              I guess I feel that way because I find that the most fun I have is when I can
                              get down to some serious geeking with other people who share my specific
                              interest. If there wasn't anyone else who really cared what a 12th century woman
                              would have worn or eaten, I'd feel a bit out on a limb.
                              This is why I wonder if people who would like to pursue personas that are
                              outside of the mainstream of SCA time and place wouldn't be happier and be able
                              to go further with their portrayal if they were part of a different
                              re-enactment organization that provided more support and outlet for their area of
                              interest.

                              I admit freely to some selfishness as well. The 12th century often seems to
                              be a part of the SCA period (and a pretty central part at that) that gets
                              neglected a bit by the overall SCA, despite all sorts of interesting history and
                              fashion changes and such. If you do 14th century, you have multiple persona
                              specific events per year and several high quality merchants catering to you. In
                              18 years in the SCA, I've seen about three specific 12th century European
                              themed events, and the only merchant I know of that advertises 12th century
                              clothing doesn't so a very good job of it, in my opinion, because they are
                              following very outdated research for their patterns. But if we open the SCA to exotic
                              stuff like 12th century Japanese and Chinese and ancient Rome and Greece,
                              these take up time and resources that could be used for more 12th century
                              European stuff. There are only so many weekends in the year.

                              And before you ask why I don't join a more focused group, I've considered it.
                              But my husband has no interest in 12th century, and I have no interest in
                              14th century. If we each joined a focused group, we'd have to pursue our hobby
                              seperately instead of together, or spend each other's events being bored. At
                              least in the SCA we can participate together.


                              Brangwayna Morgan
                              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                              Lancaster, PA



                              **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
                              challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Giertrud Gyldenstierne
                              Try 16th c. Dano-Norwegian :) Past Viking times, That area of the world is rather overlooked. YIS, Giertrud Gyldenstierne [Non-text portions of this message
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 28, 2008
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                                Try 16th c. Dano-Norwegian :) Past Viking times,
                                That area of the world is rather overlooked.

                                YIS,

                                Giertrud Gyldenstierne


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                In a message dated 9/27/2008 9:35:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ronosceola@gmail.com writes:
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 28, 2008
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                                  In a message dated 9/27/2008 9:35:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                  ronosceola@... writes:

                                  <<I tend to think
                                  that a strong case could be made that links the Iroquois people to a 14th
                                  century Knights
                                  Templar fortification that was found in New England several years ago.>>

                                  I think I'd like to see the evidence that is interpreted as a Knight Templar
                                  center in New England in the 1300's (considering that I have heard of no other
                                  evidence suggesting that Europeans were active anywhere on the Eastern
                                  seaboard at that time, although there almost certainly was an isolated Norse
                                  expedition several hundred years before). I think that a "strong case" for this
                                  suggesting Iroqouis with links to Europe would only be as strong as the
                                  interpretation of whatever archaeological site they are dealing with. And that area has
                                  been subject to some extraordinarily bad archaeological interpretation over
                                  the years. Barry Fell has been particularly bad in this respect; if his name
                                  is associated in any way with this interpretation I would take it with a very
                                  large bucket of salt. Considering that the Knights Templar were firmly
                                  suppressed in Europe in 1307, I assume that this is supposed to be the site they fled
                                  to?


                                  Brangwayna Morgan
                                  Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                  Lancaster, PA



                                  **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
                                  challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
                                  calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Roland
                                  ... 1600 ... Actually that is not an interpretation. It is just about exactly what SCA inc. Corpora says. Period. But the points you made about being out of
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 29, 2008
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                                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > In a message dated 9/27/2008 10:53:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                    > mystborne@... writes:
                                    >
                                    > <<You can chooose any place in the world as well as anytime pre-
                                    1600
                                    > irregardless if that place had contact with europe in the pre-1600
                                    > period.>>
                                    >
                                    > I suppose you can interpret the wording of what you quoted that way.
                                    >

                                    Actually that is not an interpretation. It is just about exactly
                                    what SCA inc. Corpora says. Period.

                                    But the points you made about being out of the mainstream and not
                                    feeling like you fit in (no others of you around etc) also is made in
                                    SCA inc. Corpora.

                                    Why do it? Why not? Because it is an area of interest you have that
                                    is why.

                                    Ian
                                  • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                                    Right on, Ian! By the way, my persona, North African Berber, is so poorly known in the SCA (in spite of the fact that they had extensive contact with the
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 30, 2008
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                                      Right on, Ian! By the way, my persona, North African Berber, is so poorly known in the SCA (in spite of the fact that they had extensive contact with the Byzantine Empire, the Middle Eastern Muslims, actually ruled Spain for a hundred years, were pirates preying on the Italians in the Mediterranean, and other contacts...) that the SCA main Herald group passed my name without conflict because they had too little information on the subject to raise any serious objections!!

                                      Ziddina Ait Zumar (which, after subsequent research, should actually be Ziddina wt Zumar...)

                                      -------------- Original message --------------
                                      From: "David Roland" <mystborne@...>
                                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > In a message dated 9/27/2008 10:53:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                      > mystborne@... writes:
                                      >
                                      > <<You can chooose any place in the world as well as anytime pre-
                                      1600
                                      > irregardless if that place had contact with europe in the pre-1600
                                      > period.>>
                                      >
                                      > I suppose you can interpret the wording of what you quoted that way.
                                      >

                                      Actually that is not an interpretation. It is just about exactly
                                      what SCA inc. Corpora says. Period.

                                      But the points you made about being out of the mainstream and not
                                      feeling like you fit in (no others of you around etc) also is made in
                                      SCA inc. Corpora.

                                      Why do it? Why not? Because it is an area of interest you have that
                                      is why.

                                      Ian




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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