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RE: [SCA Newcomers] rapier fencing gear

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  • Kyla
    What is your question? Whether or not rapier gear is SCA legal may depend on which Kingdom you are in. The Society standards for rigid protection can be found
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 11, 2008
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      What is your question?

      Whether or not rapier gear is SCA legal may depend on which Kingdom you are
      in.
      The Society standards for rigid protection can be found in the Rapier
      Marshal's Handbook at:
      http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/rapier_handbook.pdf
      On pages 6 and 7, the rules state:

      PROTECTIVE GEAR
      1. TERMS
      A. Materials are listed in order of increasing resistance.
      B. Abrasion-resistant material: material that will withstand normal combat
      stresses (such as
      being snagged by an unbroken blade) without tearing. Examples include, but
      are not limited
      to:
      • broadcloth
      • a single layer of heavy poplin cloth (35% cotton, 65% polyester; "trigger"
      cloth)
      • sweat pants
      • opaque cotton, poly-cotton or lycra/spandex mix tights
      Nylon pantyhose and cotton gauze shirts are examples of unacceptable
      materials.
      C. Puncture-resistant material: any fabric or combination of fabrics that
      will predictably
      withstand puncture. Examples include, but are not limited to:
      • four-ounce (2 mm) leather
      • four layers of heavy poplin cloth
      • ballistic nylon rated to at least 550 Newtons
      • commercial fencing clothing rated to at least 550 Newtons
      Kevlar is not an acceptable material, as it degrades rapidly. These
      materials need only be
      tested at the marshal’s discretion; all other materials must be tested the
      first time new gear
      is used, or if no marshal on the field knows a given piece of gear to have
      been tested.
      (Refer to Appendix 1 on Testing Standards.)
      D. Rigid Material: puncture-resistant material that will not significantly
      flex, spread apart, or
      deform under pressure of 12 Kg applied by a standard mask tester, repeatedly
      to any single
      point. Examples of rigid material are:
      • 22 gauge stainless steel (0.8 mm)
      • 20 gauge mild steel (1.0 mm)
      • 16 gauge aluminum, copper, or brass (1.6 mm)
      • one layer of hardened heavy leather (8 ounce, 4 mm)

      Your kingdom may have additional requirements.
      In the Middle Kingdom, the Rapier Marshal's Handbook says this about
      protective armour (pages 8 - 12):

      PROTECTIVE GEAR
      1. TERMS
      A. In order of increasing resistance:
      B. Abrasion-resistant material: material that will withstand normal combat
      stresses (such as being snagged by an unbroken blade) without tearing.
      Examples include, but are not limited to:
      broadcloth
      a single layer of heavy poplin cloth (35% cotton, 65% polyester; "trigger"
      cloth)
      sweat pants
      opaque cotton, poly-cotton or lycra/spandex mix tights
      Nylon pantyhose and cotton gauze shirts are examples of unacceptable
      materials.
      C. Puncture-resistant material: any fabric or combination of fabrics that
      will predictably withstand puncture. Examples include, but are not limited
      to:
      Four-ounce (2 mm) leather;
      four layers of heavy poplin cloth;
      ballistic nylon rated to at least 550 Newtons;
      commercial fencing clothing rated to at least 550 Newtons.
      Kevlar is not an acceptable material, as it degrades rapidly. These
      materials need only be tested at the marshal’s discretion; all other
      materials must be tested the first time new gear is used, or if no marshal
      on the field knows a given piece of gear to have been tested. (Refer to
      Appendix 1 on Testing Standards.)
      D. Rigid Material: puncture-resistant material that will not significantly
      flex, spread apart, or deform under pressure of 12 Kg applied by a standard
      mask tester, repeatedly to any single point.
      Examples of rigid material are:
      22 gauge stainless steel (0.8 mm)
      20 gauge mild steel (1.0 mm)
      16 gauge aluminum, copper, or brass (1.6 mm)
      one layer of hardened heavy leather (8 ounce, 4 mm)
      2. ARMOR REQUIREMENTS
      A. The following are the Society norms for protective gear. Kingdoms
      enacting more stringent
      standards shall weigh the benefits of more rigorous penetration coverage
      against the risks of
      heat illness, exhaustion, and stroke due to heavier or more confining gear.
      B. HEAD AND NECK:
      i. The front and top of the head must be covered by rigid material to below
      the jaw line and behind the ears. Standard 12 kg fencing masks are known to
      meet this standard. If built to this standard, fencing helms are also
      acceptable.
      ii. The face must be covered by either 12 kilogram mesh (e.g, a standard
      fencing mask) or perforated metal. Such metal must not have holes larger
      than 1/8" (3 mm) in diameter, with a minimum offset of 3/16" (5 mm) and
      shall also meet the definition of rigid material.
      iii. Masks and helms must be secured to the fighter, so that they cannot be
      easily removed or dislodged during combat. The combination of snug fit and
      the spring-tongue in a conventional fencing mask is NOT sufficient, by
      itself, to secure the mask to the fighter.
      iv. Both modern fencing masks and rapier helms, when inspected, shall comply
      with the rigid material standard, provisions on facial coverage, and shall
      show no evidence of impending failure (e.g., rust which weakens the metal
      involved, dents or other defects which spread open mesh, broken weld points,
      etc). If there is concern about the face mesh of a modern fencing mask, it
      should be tested using a standard commercial 12kg mask
      punch. Marshals doing the testing shall be trained in the use of the punch.
      The Kingdom Rapier Marshals may elect to designate certain deputies to
      administer such testing.
      1M. Only marshals who have been trained in the use of a mask tester should
      test masks, remembering that this test should be done only every two years,
      unless requested by the participant or if the mask is in doubt of failure,
      as this test shortens the life of the mask.
      v. The rest of the head and neck must be covered by at least puncture
      resistant material.
      vi. For heavy rapier and cut and thrust rapier, additional throat protection
      is required; it shall consist of rigid material, as noted above, covering
      the entire throat, and shall be backed by either puncture resistant material
      (as a hood), one quarter inch (1/4") (6 mm) of open-cell foam, or their
      equivalents. The cervical vertebrae shall also be protected by rigid
      material, provided by some combination of gorget, helm, and/or hood insert.
      vii. For cut and thrust rapier, the back of the head must also be covered by
      rigid material, as noted above sufficient to protect against percussive
      cuts.

      http://news.midrealm.info/Marshal/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&
      gid=5&Itemid=26

      I did not look at your site, but with this information, you should now be
      able to tell whether those masks are SCA legal. If the site doesn't give
      the required info, then either contact them directly, or assume it is not
      safe to use.

      Tabitha Pennywarden
      Ravenslake, Midlands
      Middle Kingdom


      -----Original Message-----
      From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
      Behalf Of Cailin Mac Ruadrhi
      Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:55 PM
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] rapier fencing gear


      Hey, just had a quick question about the legality of this fencing mask.

      http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/305

      I don't really know anyone who's bought from them so any info on the
      gear or the company would be greatly appreciated.
      YIS
      Cailin Mac Ruadhri






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      ... It may be possible for someone to tell you that this mask is unacceptable, based solely on Society-wide standards, but it s unlikely anyone will be able to
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 11, 2008
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        Cailin Mac Ruadrhi wrote:
        > Hey, just had a quick question about the legality of this fencing mask.
        >
        > http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/305

        It may be possible for someone to tell you that this mask is
        unacceptable, based solely on Society-wide standards, but it's unlikely
        anyone will be able to tell you for sure that it's acceptable without
        knowing in which kingdom(s) you plan to fight. Kingdom requirements
        are often stricter than Society requirements when it comes to safety
        gear.

        It's a good idea, by the way, to mention your location any time you
        send a question to the list. It will affect the answer more often than
        you would think, and leaving off the information will mean it takes
        longer for you to get a reliable, relevant response. If you make a
        habit of including at least the name of your kingdom in your signature
        every time you write to this group, you won't have to remember to add
        it when you have a query.


        Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        Kingdom of Ansteorra
        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      • David Roland
        Greetings! Minimum Society wide standard is i. The front and top of the head must be covered by rigid material to below the jaw line and behind the ears.
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 12, 2008
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          Greetings! Minimum Society wide standard is "i. The front and top of
          the head must be covered by rigid material to below the jaw line and
          behind the ears. Standard 12 kg fencing masks are known to meet this
          standard. If built to this standard, fencing helms are also acceptable."
          per the "Society for Creative Anachronism, inc Rapier Marshal's
          Handbook" Pg. 7 Link to the handbook is below.

          http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/rapier_handbook.pdf

          However, as you have been told before, you're kingdom may have more
          stringent requirements. In other words you may need to have a better
          mask than the society minimum standard. The two kingdoms that I fence
          in regularly, Northshield and Middle Kingdom, both hold to the society
          standard.

          I am all for the beginner mantra of, "get the best equipment they can
          afford." Keep in mind though that while there is great cheap stuff out
          there that you check with a fully authorized marshal of your kingdom
          BEFORE purchasing anything if you are buying stuff for the first time.

          If you don't have a marshal nearby to ask, you should be able to e-mail
          a nearby marshal who has answers. Some examples of places to look for
          the appropriate marshal (rapier, heavy, thrown weapons etc.) Your local
          groups website, local barony or province's website, local principality's
          website and last, and certainly the kingdom authority, your kingdom
          rapier marshal should be able to be found on your kingdom website. Any
          of which will likely be happy to make sure you get good safe equipment
          in lines with the standards of your kingdom.

          Safety first. Always safety first. If you don't know, don't get it.
          It isn't worth getting hurt to get started sooner.

          Having looked at the website, I do not recognize it. Also I personally
          do not know if 400 newtons is equivalent to a 12 kg mask. I can say
          however that cloth fencing armor (commercial "spectra" not our handmade
          stuff) is required in Middle Kingdom to be a minimum of 500 newtons or
          more.

          Again, check with a marshal. Start as local as you can, and if you
          either can't find them or reach them, then go up the chain until you get
          an answer.

          Ian the Green


          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Cailin Mac Ruadrhi"
          <craig_prime@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey, just had a quick question about the legality of this fencing
          mask.
          >
          > http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/305
          >
          > I don't really know anyone who's bought from them so any info on the
          > gear or the company would be greatly appreciated.
          > YIS
          > Cailin Mac Ruadhri
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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