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rapier fencing gear

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  • Cailin Mac Ruadrhi
    Hey, just had a quick question about the legality of this fencing mask. http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/305 I don t really know anyone who s bought
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 10, 2008
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      Hey, just had a quick question about the legality of this fencing mask.

      http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/305

      I don't really know anyone who's bought from them so any info on the
      gear or the company would be greatly appreciated.
      YIS
      Cailin Mac Ruadhri
    • Kyla
      What is your question? Whether or not rapier gear is SCA legal may depend on which Kingdom you are in. The Society standards for rigid protection can be found
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 11, 2008
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        What is your question?

        Whether or not rapier gear is SCA legal may depend on which Kingdom you are
        in.
        The Society standards for rigid protection can be found in the Rapier
        Marshal's Handbook at:
        http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/rapier_handbook.pdf
        On pages 6 and 7, the rules state:

        PROTECTIVE GEAR
        1. TERMS
        A. Materials are listed in order of increasing resistance.
        B. Abrasion-resistant material: material that will withstand normal combat
        stresses (such as
        being snagged by an unbroken blade) without tearing. Examples include, but
        are not limited
        to:
        • broadcloth
        • a single layer of heavy poplin cloth (35% cotton, 65% polyester; "trigger"
        cloth)
        • sweat pants
        • opaque cotton, poly-cotton or lycra/spandex mix tights
        Nylon pantyhose and cotton gauze shirts are examples of unacceptable
        materials.
        C. Puncture-resistant material: any fabric or combination of fabrics that
        will predictably
        withstand puncture. Examples include, but are not limited to:
        • four-ounce (2 mm) leather
        • four layers of heavy poplin cloth
        • ballistic nylon rated to at least 550 Newtons
        • commercial fencing clothing rated to at least 550 Newtons
        Kevlar is not an acceptable material, as it degrades rapidly. These
        materials need only be
        tested at the marshal’s discretion; all other materials must be tested the
        first time new gear
        is used, or if no marshal on the field knows a given piece of gear to have
        been tested.
        (Refer to Appendix 1 on Testing Standards.)
        D. Rigid Material: puncture-resistant material that will not significantly
        flex, spread apart, or
        deform under pressure of 12 Kg applied by a standard mask tester, repeatedly
        to any single
        point. Examples of rigid material are:
        • 22 gauge stainless steel (0.8 mm)
        • 20 gauge mild steel (1.0 mm)
        • 16 gauge aluminum, copper, or brass (1.6 mm)
        • one layer of hardened heavy leather (8 ounce, 4 mm)

        Your kingdom may have additional requirements.
        In the Middle Kingdom, the Rapier Marshal's Handbook says this about
        protective armour (pages 8 - 12):

        PROTECTIVE GEAR
        1. TERMS
        A. In order of increasing resistance:
        B. Abrasion-resistant material: material that will withstand normal combat
        stresses (such as being snagged by an unbroken blade) without tearing.
        Examples include, but are not limited to:
        broadcloth
        a single layer of heavy poplin cloth (35% cotton, 65% polyester; "trigger"
        cloth)
        sweat pants
        opaque cotton, poly-cotton or lycra/spandex mix tights
        Nylon pantyhose and cotton gauze shirts are examples of unacceptable
        materials.
        C. Puncture-resistant material: any fabric or combination of fabrics that
        will predictably withstand puncture. Examples include, but are not limited
        to:
        Four-ounce (2 mm) leather;
        four layers of heavy poplin cloth;
        ballistic nylon rated to at least 550 Newtons;
        commercial fencing clothing rated to at least 550 Newtons.
        Kevlar is not an acceptable material, as it degrades rapidly. These
        materials need only be tested at the marshal’s discretion; all other
        materials must be tested the first time new gear is used, or if no marshal
        on the field knows a given piece of gear to have been tested. (Refer to
        Appendix 1 on Testing Standards.)
        D. Rigid Material: puncture-resistant material that will not significantly
        flex, spread apart, or deform under pressure of 12 Kg applied by a standard
        mask tester, repeatedly to any single point.
        Examples of rigid material are:
        22 gauge stainless steel (0.8 mm)
        20 gauge mild steel (1.0 mm)
        16 gauge aluminum, copper, or brass (1.6 mm)
        one layer of hardened heavy leather (8 ounce, 4 mm)
        2. ARMOR REQUIREMENTS
        A. The following are the Society norms for protective gear. Kingdoms
        enacting more stringent
        standards shall weigh the benefits of more rigorous penetration coverage
        against the risks of
        heat illness, exhaustion, and stroke due to heavier or more confining gear.
        B. HEAD AND NECK:
        i. The front and top of the head must be covered by rigid material to below
        the jaw line and behind the ears. Standard 12 kg fencing masks are known to
        meet this standard. If built to this standard, fencing helms are also
        acceptable.
        ii. The face must be covered by either 12 kilogram mesh (e.g, a standard
        fencing mask) or perforated metal. Such metal must not have holes larger
        than 1/8" (3 mm) in diameter, with a minimum offset of 3/16" (5 mm) and
        shall also meet the definition of rigid material.
        iii. Masks and helms must be secured to the fighter, so that they cannot be
        easily removed or dislodged during combat. The combination of snug fit and
        the spring-tongue in a conventional fencing mask is NOT sufficient, by
        itself, to secure the mask to the fighter.
        iv. Both modern fencing masks and rapier helms, when inspected, shall comply
        with the rigid material standard, provisions on facial coverage, and shall
        show no evidence of impending failure (e.g., rust which weakens the metal
        involved, dents or other defects which spread open mesh, broken weld points,
        etc). If there is concern about the face mesh of a modern fencing mask, it
        should be tested using a standard commercial 12kg mask
        punch. Marshals doing the testing shall be trained in the use of the punch.
        The Kingdom Rapier Marshals may elect to designate certain deputies to
        administer such testing.
        1M. Only marshals who have been trained in the use of a mask tester should
        test masks, remembering that this test should be done only every two years,
        unless requested by the participant or if the mask is in doubt of failure,
        as this test shortens the life of the mask.
        v. The rest of the head and neck must be covered by at least puncture
        resistant material.
        vi. For heavy rapier and cut and thrust rapier, additional throat protection
        is required; it shall consist of rigid material, as noted above, covering
        the entire throat, and shall be backed by either puncture resistant material
        (as a hood), one quarter inch (1/4") (6 mm) of open-cell foam, or their
        equivalents. The cervical vertebrae shall also be protected by rigid
        material, provided by some combination of gorget, helm, and/or hood insert.
        vii. For cut and thrust rapier, the back of the head must also be covered by
        rigid material, as noted above sufficient to protect against percussive
        cuts.

        http://news.midrealm.info/Marshal/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&
        gid=5&Itemid=26

        I did not look at your site, but with this information, you should now be
        able to tell whether those masks are SCA legal. If the site doesn't give
        the required info, then either contact them directly, or assume it is not
        safe to use.

        Tabitha Pennywarden
        Ravenslake, Midlands
        Middle Kingdom


        -----Original Message-----
        From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of Cailin Mac Ruadrhi
        Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:55 PM
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SCA Newcomers] rapier fencing gear


        Hey, just had a quick question about the legality of this fencing mask.

        http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/305

        I don't really know anyone who's bought from them so any info on the
        gear or the company would be greatly appreciated.
        YIS
        Cailin Mac Ruadhri






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        ... It may be possible for someone to tell you that this mask is unacceptable, based solely on Society-wide standards, but it s unlikely anyone will be able to
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 11, 2008
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          Cailin Mac Ruadrhi wrote:
          > Hey, just had a quick question about the legality of this fencing mask.
          >
          > http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/305

          It may be possible for someone to tell you that this mask is
          unacceptable, based solely on Society-wide standards, but it's unlikely
          anyone will be able to tell you for sure that it's acceptable without
          knowing in which kingdom(s) you plan to fight. Kingdom requirements
          are often stricter than Society requirements when it comes to safety
          gear.

          It's a good idea, by the way, to mention your location any time you
          send a question to the list. It will affect the answer more often than
          you would think, and leaving off the information will mean it takes
          longer for you to get a reliable, relevant response. If you make a
          habit of including at least the name of your kingdom in your signature
          every time you write to this group, you won't have to remember to add
          it when you have a query.


          Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
        • David Roland
          Greetings! Minimum Society wide standard is i. The front and top of the head must be covered by rigid material to below the jaw line and behind the ears.
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 12, 2008
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            Greetings! Minimum Society wide standard is "i. The front and top of
            the head must be covered by rigid material to below the jaw line and
            behind the ears. Standard 12 kg fencing masks are known to meet this
            standard. If built to this standard, fencing helms are also acceptable."
            per the "Society for Creative Anachronism, inc Rapier Marshal's
            Handbook" Pg. 7 Link to the handbook is below.

            http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/rapier_handbook.pdf

            However, as you have been told before, you're kingdom may have more
            stringent requirements. In other words you may need to have a better
            mask than the society minimum standard. The two kingdoms that I fence
            in regularly, Northshield and Middle Kingdom, both hold to the society
            standard.

            I am all for the beginner mantra of, "get the best equipment they can
            afford." Keep in mind though that while there is great cheap stuff out
            there that you check with a fully authorized marshal of your kingdom
            BEFORE purchasing anything if you are buying stuff for the first time.

            If you don't have a marshal nearby to ask, you should be able to e-mail
            a nearby marshal who has answers. Some examples of places to look for
            the appropriate marshal (rapier, heavy, thrown weapons etc.) Your local
            groups website, local barony or province's website, local principality's
            website and last, and certainly the kingdom authority, your kingdom
            rapier marshal should be able to be found on your kingdom website. Any
            of which will likely be happy to make sure you get good safe equipment
            in lines with the standards of your kingdom.

            Safety first. Always safety first. If you don't know, don't get it.
            It isn't worth getting hurt to get started sooner.

            Having looked at the website, I do not recognize it. Also I personally
            do not know if 400 newtons is equivalent to a 12 kg mask. I can say
            however that cloth fencing armor (commercial "spectra" not our handmade
            stuff) is required in Middle Kingdom to be a minimum of 500 newtons or
            more.

            Again, check with a marshal. Start as local as you can, and if you
            either can't find them or reach them, then go up the chain until you get
            an answer.

            Ian the Green


            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Cailin Mac Ruadrhi"
            <craig_prime@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey, just had a quick question about the legality of this fencing
            mask.
            >
            > http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/305
            >
            > I don't really know anyone who's bought from them so any info on the
            > gear or the company would be greatly appreciated.
            > YIS
            > Cailin Mac Ruadhri
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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