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An outdated can of worms

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  • Danel Fisher
    Greetings good gentles of the list; I started a long introduction but was afraid my question would be lost in the mess so I ll ask simply: What is the end of
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 10, 2008
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      Greetings good gentles of the list;

      I started a long introduction but was afraid my question would be lost
      in the mess so I'll ask simply:

      What is the end of period for the SCA? Is it 1600 or 1650? Is the
      cavalier styles of the english civil war era an SCA counter-culture or
      an acceptable garb and persona? Tall boots and broad brimmed hats are
      awesome, but are the legitimately 'authentic'?
    • Jibra'il `Attar
      ... Per Corpora, the end date is pre-1600 ....so 1600 would be the end date. The 1650 date is strictly for heraldic use, known as the gray area ...in which
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 10, 2008
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        Danel Fisher wrote:
        > Greetings good gentles of the list;
        >
        > I started a long introduction but was afraid my question would be lost
        > in the mess so I'll ask simply:
        >
        > What is the end of period for the SCA? Is it 1600 or 1650? Is the
        > cavalier styles of the english civil war era an SCA counter-culture or
        > an acceptable garb and persona? Tall boots and broad brimmed hats are
        > awesome, but are the legitimately 'authentic'?


        Per Corpora, the end date is "pre-1600"....so 1600 would be the end date.

        The 1650 date is strictly for heraldic use, known as the "gray
        area"...in which to document names. This comes from using sources such
        as marriage and death records from this gray area, that would show a
        name as being within period based on when the person cited in such
        records could possibly have been born.

        Jibra'il `Attar.
      • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        ... If you haven t downloaded the governing documents of the S.C.A. , you should. They definitively address all sorts of
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 11, 2008
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          Danel Fisher wrote:
          > What is the end of period for the SCA?

          If you haven't downloaded the governing documents of the S.C.A.
          <http://sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf>, you should. They definitively
          address all sorts of questions to which newcomers often get inaccurate
          or incomplete answers, including the above (which is covered in the
          introduction). There's just no substitute for going straight to the
          source. You never have to wonder what the right answer is after that.


          Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
        • Jeff Suzuki
          ... Actually, if you re talking intangibles (as opposed to things like garb and equipment) there s a lot of gray. Most of the English country dances come from
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 11, 2008
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            --- Jibra'il `Attar <jibrail.attar@...> wrote:

            > Per Corpora, the end date is "pre-1600"....so 1600
            > would be the end date.
            >
            > The 1650 date is strictly for heraldic use, known as
            > the "gray
            > area"...in which to document names.

            Actually, if you're talking intangibles (as opposed to
            things like garb and equipment) there's a lot of gray.
            Most of the English country dances come from Playford
            (1651), though some are even later. (And we won't
            even *talk* about Korobushka...) The most commonly
            used recipe for mead is from Digby (the 1660s), and
            "traditional" music is "older than the person who
            compiled the songbook."

            What's it all mean? Periodicity is a lot like
            Netiquette. Someone who's just joined the SCA is
            usually given a lot of leeway, since most of the
            people in the SCA are easygoing types. There are a
            few who will take offense, but they're the net
            equivalent of flamers and trolls, and the best thing
            to do is to ignore them. Likewise after you've been
            in for a while, you should stop responding to "Please
            forward this to everyone you know" emails and giving
            out your bank account numbers to someone who needs to
            deposit $10M "for just a short time".

            Jeffs/etc.
          • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
            As the others who replied stated... However, if you are interested in wearing garb that has cavalier elements, I ve found that many of the garments that
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 13, 2008
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              As the others who replied stated... However, if you are interested in wearing garb that has "cavalier" elements, I've found that many of the garments that are so-called "cavalier" can actually be shown to have existed in "period" - that is, before 1600 AD.

              For example, the wide-brimmed and heavily decorated hats can be found in the painting "Ball at the Valois Court" (detail) executed in 1580. I found this painting (photo of) in the book "French Art - The Renaissance 1430-1620" by Andre Chastel. [I used the comment from "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked" on page 201-202, "Women's hats (Figs 287 and 288) followed the masculine styles which Stubbes roundly condemned in his Anatomie of Abuses in 1583: ...Othersome be flat, and broad on the crowne, ..." to justify my creattion of a broad brimmed, flat-crowned hat that is strikingly similar to the hats worn by the male musicians in the above-mentioned painting. This style is typically considered "cavalier" by most people; however, it did exist "in period".

              As to the "falling collar" (which, in my opinion, would be much more comfortable to wear than the 'ruff'), I found the following - in the book "A Survey of Historic Costume" by Phyllis Tortora and Keith Eubank, on page 135, there is an [?woodcut or pencil?] illustration of a "Group of gentlemen, second half of the 16th century." (That's 1550-1600 - I've always had to mentally translate the "th's century"....) The caption continues "These gentlemen of the court of Queen Elizabeth I of England... Both ruffs and a square collar are visible". {Italics and underline mine - look at the fellow in the second row, between the gent facing right and the fellow looking at the illustrator over his left shoulder in a dark cape.}

              Hope this helps. If you are dealing with a group of "Argh" (anal retentive garb hotheads) you may want to carry a small packet of research (with illustrations!) around with you... Ziddina



              -------------- Original message --------------
              From: "Danel Fisher" <danel56@...>
              Greetings good gentles of the list;

              I started a long introduction but was afraid my question would be lost
              in the mess so I'll ask simply:

              What is the end of period for the SCA? Is it 1600 or 1650? Is the
              cavalier styles of the english civil war era an SCA counter-culture or
              an acceptable garb and persona? Tall boots and broad brimmed hats are
              awesome, but are the legitimately 'authentic'?




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Riff Raff
              A true Viking would never be caught dead wearing a hat like that!!!    :P ... From: Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net Subject: Re:
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 13, 2008
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                A true Viking would never be caught dead wearing a hat like that!!!    :P

                --- On Wed, 8/13/08, Ziddinaaitzumar@... <Ziddinaaitzumar@...> wrote:

                From: Ziddinaaitzumar@... <Ziddinaaitzumar@...>
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] An outdated can of worms
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 9:49 PM

                As the others who replied stated... However, if you are interested in
                wearing garb that has "cavalier" elements, I've found that many of
                the garments that are so-called "cavalier" can actually be shown to
                have existed in "period" - that is, before 1600 AD.

                For example, the wide-brimmed and heavily decorated hats can be found in the
                painting "Ball at the Valois Court" (detail) executed in 1580. I
                found this painting (photo of) in the book "French Art - The Renaissance
                1430-1620" by Andre Chastel. [I used the comment from "Queen
                Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked" on page 201-202, "Women's hats
                (Figs 287 and 288) followed the masculine styles which Stubbes roundly condemned
                in his Anatomie of Abuses in 1583: ...Othersome be flat, and broad on the
                crowne, ..." to justify my creattion of a broad brimmed, flat-crowned hat
                that is strikingly similar to the hats worn by the male musicians in the
                above-mentioned painting. This style is typically considered
                "cavalier" by most people; however, it did exist "in
                period".

                As to the "falling collar" (which, in my opinion, would be much more
                comfortable to wear than the 'ruff'), I found the following - in the
                book "A Survey of Historic Costume" by Phyllis Tortora and Keith
                Eubank, on page 135, there is an [?woodcut or pencil?] illustration of a
                "Group of gentlemen, second half of the 16th century." (That's
                1550-1600 - I've always had to mentally translate the "th's
                century"....) The caption continues "These gentlemen of the court of
                Queen Elizabeth I of England... Both ruffs and a square collar are
                visible". {Italics and underline mine - look at the fellow in the second
                row, between the gent facing right and the fellow looking at the illustrator
                over his left shoulder in a dark cape.}

                Hope this helps. If you are dealing with a group of "Argh" (anal
                retentive garb hotheads) you may want to carry a small packet of research (with
                illustrations!) around with you... Ziddina



                -------------- Original message --------------
                From: "Danel Fisher" <danel56@...>
                Greetings good gentles of the list;

                I started a long introduction but was afraid my question would be lost
                in the mess so I'll ask simply:

                What is the end of period for the SCA? Is it 1600 or 1650? Is the
                cavalier styles of the english civil war era an SCA counter-culture or
                an acceptable garb and persona? Tall boots and broad brimmed hats are
                awesome, but are the legitimately 'authentic'?




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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