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  • mistrisofdark
    Hello group. Newcomer to scanewcomers. Im part of the shire of arenal which is in meridias. I joined a little over a year ago and was re- assured that there
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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      Hello group. Newcomer to scanewcomers. Im part of the shire of arenal
      which is in meridias. I joined a little over a year ago and was re-
      assured that there was no rush to jump and pick a persona and name.
      Well its been a year now and I am still no closer to choosing a name
      etc. I am sure this is something everyone struggled with and I was
      hoping someone could give me a tip or two.
      I want nothing grandious. My fiance and his family who persuaded me to
      join are potraying Normans. Nothing wrong with that but I chafe at that
      choice.
      I suppose so much rests on the individual and what they wish to be seen
      as. One Lady suggested I do early North American trapper. Not a
      colonist she said french?? I think, but when i started researching
      starting with 1498 and John Calbot I found it seems they started
      pushing the Native American Indians away and fighting them. I was
      hoping to find otherwise as I had in my head an Indian friendly
      trapper. Long story, again based on my actual personality and heritage.
      I know im fretting and getting to ocd over this but thats me.
      Also has anyone had bad results from choosing a persona so late in the
      sca timeframe?
      Something tells me just choose english peasant and be done with it but
      i can't.
      I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am trying
      to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont really
      want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
      choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.
      Crown list is coming up next month for us and I so wish to atleast have
      a name chosen instead of that awkward pause when I introduce myself at
      events. But name hinges on period and place eh? Aye what a conundrum.
      Help please and thank you.
    • Nicole E. Miller
      Welcome to the list. I have been playing for a little over a year and a half myself, so I know exactly where you are. I had very similar ideas about what I
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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        Welcome to the list.

        I have been playing for a little over a year and a half myself, so I know exactly where you are. I had very similar ideas about what I wanted. Tunics and pants (I hate to wear dresses in real life, why do it I in my hobby). I also knew I wanted to do heavy fighting. I started by doing some research about historical women in armor/fighting, etc. Everyone knows about Joan of Arc, and most people have seen the Cate Blanchet movie about Elizabeth (the second one where she puts on full plate) but I was just not interested in those time periods. As I went back in time, I found several cultures where a woman would often take up a sword to protect her family and land when her husband was away. I began to focus on the 1100-1300 Norse/Celtic cultures (Scots, Danish, Norse, etc) In some older Norse sagas there was a term that caught my eye....swordmaiden. After some deeper searching I found some artwork depicting such a person. Guess what, she was wearing what the guys wore to fight in. It was about the same time I learned of House Ironrose and other things dedicated to furthering the female fighter within the SCA. Now There are lots of people in my area who do a Norse/Viking persona, so I wanted to do something a bit different, but keep the same type of persona. I went Welsh. The Welsh had lots and lots of Norse influence into their culture from centuries of trading, including a few references to female fighters. I rolled it into a persona story of being the only child of a wealth Danish trader who married a Welsh nobleman's daughter.

        If you want a way to tie your story into that of your fiance's, the Normans did conquer England and whose to say he didn't take a wife after coming over from Normandy (you didn't mention his time period, but they have been in England for a long time). You can really use the history (wars, travel routes, etc) to very plausibly expand the cultures of your family group. Lots of couple are from different cultures that might have been in contact at some point during history.

        Lady Sian verch Gwilim ap Lewelin
        Atlantia

        ---- mistrisofdark <mistrisofdark@...> wrote:

        =============
        Hello group. Newcomer to scanewcomers. Im part of the shire of arenal
        which is in meridias. I joined a little over a year ago and was re-
        assured that there was no rush to jump and pick a persona and name.
        Well its been a year now and I am still no closer to choosing a name
        etc. I am sure this is something everyone struggled with and I was
        hoping someone could give me a tip or two.
        I want nothing grandious. My fiance and his family who persuaded me to
        join are potraying Normans. Nothing wrong with that but I chafe at that
        choice.
        I suppose so much rests on the individual and what they wish to be seen
        as. One Lady suggested I do early North American trapper. Not a
        colonist she said french?? I think, but when i started researching
        starting with 1498 and John Calbot I found it seems they started
        pushing the Native American Indians away and fighting them. I was
        hoping to find otherwise as I had in my head an Indian friendly
        trapper. Long story, again based on my actual personality and heritage.
        I know im fretting and getting to ocd over this but thats me.
        Also has anyone had bad results from choosing a persona so late in the
        sca timeframe?
        Something tells me just choose english peasant and be done with it but
        i can't.
        I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am trying
        to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont really
        want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
        choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.
        Crown list is coming up next month for us and I so wish to atleast have
        a name chosen instead of that awkward pause when I introduce myself at
        events. But name hinges on period and place eh? Aye what a conundrum.
        Help please and thank you.
      • Sara L Uckelman
        ... What is your modern name? Depending on what it is, you could use that as a guide to period and place. -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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          Quoth "mistrisofdark":
          > a name chosen instead of that awkward pause when I introduce myself at
          > events. But name hinges on period and place eh? Aye what a conundrum.
          > Help please and thank you.

          What is your modern name? Depending on what it is, you could use
          that as a guide to period and place.

          -Aryanhwy


          --
          vita sine literis mors est
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
        • Jeff Gedney
          ... name ... Wonderful. That makes it easier. You see, Names were generally just as non-grandiose in period as they are today. The difficulites we as Heralds
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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            > Well its been a year now and I am still no closer to choosing a
            name
            > etc. I am sure this is something everyone struggled with and I was
            > hoping someone could give me a tip or two.
            > I want nothing grandious.

            Wonderful.
            That makes it easier.
            You see, Names were generally just as non-grandiose in period as
            they are today.
            The difficulites we as Heralds face is when people insist on
            grandiosity in their names.

            > My fiance and his family who persuaded me to
            > join are potraying Normans. Nothing wrong with that but I chafe at
            > that choice.

            There is no obligation to have even compatible personae.
            People will know you are a couple just by the fact that you come out
            of the same tent in the mornings, or by your arriving and leaving
            together, or by public displays of affection. You know, the usual
            way we pick that out in modern social settings.

            My wife portrays an 11th century Viking. I am protraying an
            Elizabethan Ships Captain. The only thing our personae might have
            had in common was that we both may have wet our tootsies in the
            North Sea at some point.

            Yet our friends and even casual acquaintances have no difficulty
            acknowleging out relationship.

            All to often I see all sorts of improbable and even patently
            impossible stories to explain the full resume of a person's
            interests, naming, and SCA family.

            Things like Arabic and Irish travellers meeting up in Japan, and
            travelling to byzantium together, and having a daughter who maries a
            Russian lord. It's patent nonsense, historically.
            But people feel compelled to make thier story reflect their
            interests as if they have to excuse them.
            It is just not necessary.

            An Elizabethan ship's captain would probably never make furniture or
            bind books, cook feasts, weave cloth, black smith, or make japanese
            clothing. Yet these are all things that I enjoy doing, and doing in
            the SCA context.
            I do not have to apologize for them in my persona story. I simply
            state "I just like doing these things too". and people are fine with
            leaving it at that.

            The Problem you will have with "Resume persona stories" lies in the
            very nature of the SCA.
            It's a dilletantes paradise.
            If you are involved, actively, for more than a few years, the
            chances that you will still be doing the things you started out
            doing are slim to none.
            You will grow and change, and so will your list of SCA related
            activities.

            When I started in the SCA I was interested in Heavy fighting with
            Axe and Shield, archery, and smithying. Now I fence, actively
            research and teach about period boats and sailing and do a hundred
            other things.

            The same mistake is made with names and also with arms... you dont
            have to reflect your resume in those.
            Arms and name are just ways to identify people.
            Labels.
            John Smith's as a mundane name no more reflects the scope of a
            person's career then it did for MOST of period.
            The most famous John smith in History never picked up a hammer and
            tongs in his life!

            If I was concerned with the concordance of my varying and changing
            interests to my name, story or arms, I'd be changing them so often
            that nobody would know me by name at all, and I'd just be
            called "Hey you, the Scruffy one!"
            ( which I am called now and then, anyway )

            > One Lady suggested I do early North American trapper. Not a
            > colonist she said french??

            Although the french fur trade started with the founding of Quebec
            around 1600, and Champlain's explorations in 1603, French Trapping
            really took off in the mid to late 1600's and all of it is pretty
            much is out of period. The only period French presence in North
            America was Ribault's aborted attempt at colonizing the Jacksonville
            Florida area in the 1560's/ and they were all male, except for a few
            Indian girls they married in, and pretty much they were wiped out by
            the Spanish by about 1570.

            > I know im fretting and getting to ocd over this but thats me.
            > Also has anyone had bad results from choosing a persona so late in
            the
            > sca timeframe?

            no. Mine is 1594... that is almost at the end of it all
            (period in the SCA ends with 1601 - all our "official" docs spell
            out, when they do spell out a time, "preseventeenth century", rumor
            to the contrary is rife but not to the point.)

            > I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am
            trying
            > to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont
            really
            > want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
            > choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.

            So?
            wear what you like.
            there have been, in period, groups of renegade women that insisted
            on wearing male clothing. We have a group in the East Kingdom of
            ladies who do exactly this and they have researched the concept a
            lot.

            Additionally when women have gone to war or on ships, they have
            disguised as male.
            Shakespeare loved to work with that concept in his Comedies.

            Heck you can even have a male persona.
            One of the male Barons in the East is in fact, biologically, a
            female. She wears male clothing and a false beard.
            I know of a couple of ladies who do that.

            > But name hinges on period and place eh? Aye what a conundrum.

            A lot of names, like Richard, John, Mary, Elizabeth, etc are common
            over a wide range of places and times, with only minor variations.

            Pick a name like that, say Elizabeth of (local sca group), and then
            you when you feel like you have found a focus for your persona you
            can just adapt it to fit, and formalize it.

            Capt Elias
            Dragonship Haven, East
            Stratford, CT
          • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
            ... On the contrary. I know people who ve been in the S.C.A. for a decade or more who wear generic medieval clothing (or dress to suit each event s theme,
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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              mistrisofdark wrote:
              > Im part of the shire of arenal which is in meridias. I joined a little
              > over a year ago and was re-assured that there was no rush to jump and
              > pick a persona and name. Well its been a year now and I am still no
              > closer to choosing a name etc.. . .

              > I know im fretting and getting to ocd over this but thats me. Also has
              > anyone had bad results from choosing a persona so late in the sca
              > timeframe?

              On the contrary. I know people who've been in the S.C.A. for a decade
              or more who wear "generic medieval" clothing (or dress to suit each
              event's theme, or the weather, or a whim) and have picked only a first
              name (usually one of the Norman ones, or a Biblical one--something that
              translates well from culture to culture, like William/Guillaume/Wilhelm
              or Mary/Marie/Maria, because they, too are sort of "generic medieval").
              Some of them even have titles, given to them under those first names
              with "of [their local SCA branch]" as a last name.

              You should feel no pressure *at all* to pick a persona. If you're not
              yet ready to settle on something, don't. Just enjoy learning about the
              things that interest you. Eventually you may discover that you've
              settled into a pattern--that you like German clothes, German food,
              German names, and German heraldry, for instance, or that you find a
              particular 15th-century figure fascinating and want to immerse yourself
              in the politics, history, and material culture that surrounded him--and
              realize that a persona that fits that pattern just makes sense. Or you
              may never be interested enough in any single culture and period to want
              to research them and put together a name and gear specific to them.
              Either way, it's O.K.

              Persona play is just one of the many things one can do in the S.C.A.
              And like all the others, it's only meant to be a pleasure for those who
              enjoy it, never a burden to those who don't.


              Coblaith Mhuimhneach
              Barony of Bryn Gwlad
              Kingdom of Ansteorra
              <mailto:Coblaith@...>
            • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
              ... Sometimes one s name comes from one s persona. Sometimes it s the other way around. And sometimes one just picks a name one likes and uses it, without
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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                mistrisofdark wrote:
                > Im part of the shire of arenal which is in meridias. I joined a little
                > over a year ago and was re-assured that there was no rush to jump and
                > pick a persona and name. Well its been a year now and I am still no
                > closer to choosing a name etc.

                > Crown list is coming up next month for us and I so wish to atleast
                > have a name chosen instead of that awkward pause when I introduce
                > myself at events. But name hinges on period and place eh?

                Sometimes one's name comes from one's persona. Sometimes it's the
                other way around. And sometimes one just picks a name one likes and
                uses it, without worrying about persona. Since you don't have a
                persona in mind yet, I say ignore that question and focus on picking a
                name you'll be happy to use and to answer to.

                Start by reading, "Choosing a Society Name: Hints for Newcomers"
                <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/dietmar/hints.html>. That'll get you
                ready to think about names in the right way, and help you avoid the
                mistakes new members commonly make in choosing one.

                Then go to the Medieval Names Archive <http://s-gabriel.org/names/> and
                look at the naming guides for the cultures that interest you. If
                you've always liked the sound of Spanish names, look at the guide for
                those. If you just want a simple name you can pronounce, check out the
                English ones. Look at as many as you like. If there is a "how to"
                article for a particular language, read that first. (For instance, if
                you're considering choosing a Scottish name, read "Scottish Names
                101".) Then look at lists of names, and see if you can find one (or a
                few) you really like. Once you've settled on a personal name (the
                equivalent of a first name in modern America), just look at the bynames
                (equivalent to last name) in the same document, and put them together
                the way the guide suggests. Or, if you don't want to bother with that
                just yet, go by the personal name alone unless and until you decide you
                need a second name.

                Don't be too freaked out about whether your name will be perfect for
                you, for ever and ever, either. If you later decide to develop a
                persona from a different culture, you *can* change it. Lots of people
                change S.C.A. names, at some point. Or you can keep it as an alternate
                name. Some people even develop full-fledged multiple personae, each
                with its own name.

                The important thing is that you are happy with your name, and that it
                serves the purposes for which you chose it. If all you want is
                something to call yourself at Crown, that's all you need.


                Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                Kingdom of Ansteorra
                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
              • Sarah
                Greetings from the Shire of Afonlyn in the Middle Kingdom :) (ie Indiana ) My (real, not SCA) grandmother is the result of a French trapper who got cozy with
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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                  Greetings from the Shire of Afonlyn in the Middle Kingdom :)
                  (ie "Indiana")

                  My (real, not SCA) grandmother is the result of a French trapper who
                  got cozy with a local lady (ie "Indian" or Native American) and
                  settled down and had a *lot* of fun. ;) So don't let ~that~
                  particular issue dissuade you if that's the angle you want to pursue
                  for now.

                  I think it's better to "run generic" for a while rather than go the
                  opposite extreme, which is an easy trap to fall into, and invest a
                  *HUGE* am,ount of time/energy/effort/time/resources/esp.money in
                  something that *seems* cool and you later decide you really don't
                  like that much AFTER all.......

                  I personally started off the spouse of a Landsknecht (talk about frou-
                  frou....) and decided that that was*REALLY* not fun. My own
                  interests lie in herbalism and cooking of the commonly referred
                  to "Viking era" so I ditched the slash-n-pooooooof and went Norse and
                  never regretted it. If I wanted (or needed for some elaborate court
                  function, should I choose) I could come up with a relatively schnazzy
                  dress, but I like the simplicty of my garb, and it's WAY more
                  effective for campsite cooking, which is my true love. ;)

                  Most of all, remember it's supposed to be ~fun~, not cause you to
                  experience an ulcer from the stress. ;)

                  Best of luck!



                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "mistrisofdark"
                  <mistrisofdark@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello group. Newcomer to scanewcomers. Im part of the shire of
                  arenal
                  > which is in meridias. I joined a little over a year ago and was re-
                  > assured that there was no rush to jump and pick a persona and name.
                  > Well its been a year now and I am still no closer to choosing a
                  name
                  > etc. I am sure this is something everyone struggled with and I was
                  > hoping someone could give me a tip or two.
                  > I want nothing grandious. My fiance and his family who persuaded me
                  to
                  > join are potraying Normans. Nothing wrong with that but I chafe at
                  that
                  > choice.
                  > I suppose so much rests on the individual and what they wish to be
                  seen
                  > as. One Lady suggested I do early North American trapper. Not a
                  > colonist she said french?? I think, but when i started researching
                  > starting with 1498 and John Calbot I found it seems they started
                  > pushing the Native American Indians away and fighting them. I was
                  > hoping to find otherwise as I had in my head an Indian friendly
                  > trapper. Long story, again based on my actual personality and
                  heritage.
                  > I know im fretting and getting to ocd over this but thats me.
                  > Also has anyone had bad results from choosing a persona so late in
                  the
                  > sca timeframe?
                  > Something tells me just choose english peasant and be done with it
                  but
                  > i can't.
                  > I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am
                  trying
                  > to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont
                  really
                  > want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
                  > choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.
                  > Crown list is coming up next month for us and I so wish to atleast
                  have
                  > a name chosen instead of that awkward pause when I introduce myself
                  at
                  > events. But name hinges on period and place eh? Aye what a
                  conundrum.
                  > Help please and thank you.
                  >
                • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                  ... The first point I feel I should make is that it is very common and *perfectly accepted* in the S.C.A. for an individual to take on a persona of the sex
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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                    mistrisofdark wrote:
                    > I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am trying
                    > to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont really
                    > want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
                    > choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.

                    The first point I feel I should make is that it is very common and
                    *perfectly accepted* in the S.C.A. for an individual to take on a
                    persona of the sex opposite her own. A lot of women, especially, take
                    on male personae for fighting. Some of them have alternate, female
                    persona that they adopt off the field. Some don't. If you choose to
                    call yourself "Charles" or "Gaspar" or something and wear male garb,
                    nobody will balk at it. The important thing is that you be
                    comfortable.

                    That said, pants are not all that common even for men in the S.C.A.'s
                    core period. At most places, most men wore hosen of some sort or went
                    bare-legged. If you're interested in an early-period persona from
                    north-western Europe (a Viking-Age Saxon, Nord, or Gael, for instance),
                    they might be an option for a male persona. But I've never seen any
                    convincing evidence that women--including women who fought--regularly
                    dressed in them.

                    On the other hands, if your primary concern is with simplicity in
                    clothing, full-length tunics are an excellent choice. They're not just
                    easy to make. They're about as straightforward a garment to wear as
                    you could ask for. For a more active or less high-ranking persona,
                    skirts that end just above the feet are appropriate--they don't have to
                    trail on the ground. If they have enough volume, they won't get in
                    your way during most activities. And you needn't decorate your tunics
                    elaborately or wear a lot of accessories.


                    Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                    Kingdom of Ansteorra
                    <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                  • Briana Delaney
                    I haven t registered my name yet, but it hinges on an interest I already had. Giertrud [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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                      I haven't registered my name yet, but it hinges on an interest I already
                      had.

                      Giertrud


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jeff Gedney
                      ... already ... Let me bang this drum a little louder for a sec... Once again, A name in the SCA does _not_ have to relate or convey your SCA interests. It
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 11, 2008
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                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Briana Delaney"
                        <briana.delaney@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I haven't registered my name yet, but it hinges on an interest I
                        already
                        > had.
                        >
                        > Giertrud
                        >
                        >

                        Let me bang this drum a little louder for a sec...

                        Once again, A name in the SCA does _not_ have to relate or convey
                        your SCA interests.
                        It may, but it does not have to, so you don't have to get all
                        wrapped up in getting the "right" name to reflect what you do.

                        Let me turn this around by asking "where did you get your modern,
                        mundane name?"

                        If you are like most people, the name you carry was given to you not
                        based on what you do, but was given to you by your parents when you
                        were born. YOu got your first name because that was what they code
                        to call you, and your surname from your family. That was also true
                        for most people throughout nearly ALL of period.

                        the modern person Dennis Taylor does not have that name because he
                        was supposed to be a priest of Dionysius that sews clothing.

                        the same is also true of a medieval man named Dennis Taylor

                        Name =/= fame
                        Your fame in the SCA is what you do in the SCA, your SCA name is
                        just what people call you when they talk about what you do.

                        Try to think of your SCA name as your SCA name, not your SCA
                        fame,and it will relieve a lot of pressure about coming up with
                        the "right" name to show what you do and explain the scope of your
                        interests.


                        Capt Elias Gedney
                      • kathyg@hiwaay.net
                        I would like to get some other folks opion on this small item that is related to this thread. When a female takes on a persona of the opposite sex, is dresses
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 12, 2008
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                          I would like to get some other folks opion on this small item that is related
                          to this thread.

                          When a female takes on a persona of the opposite sex, is dresses as the
                          opposite sex, is takening part in activities as the opposite sex, then do they
                          expect / prefer to be addressed as Lord or Lady?

                          Does the person speaking to them, overlook the body and address to persona? Or
                          does the person speaking address the body reguardless of what the person is
                          wearing?

                          Thank you,

                          Alara / Kathy



                          Quoting Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>:

                          > mistrisofdark wrote:
                          > > I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am trying
                          >
                          > > to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont really
                          > > want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
                          > > choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.
                          >
                          > The first point I feel I should make is that it is very common and
                          > *perfectly accepted* in the S.C.A. for an individual to take on a
                          > persona of the sex opposite her own. A lot of women, especially, take
                          > on male personae for fighting. Some of them have alternate, female
                          > persona that they adopt off the field. Some don't. If you choose to
                          > call yourself "Charles" or "Gaspar" or something and wear male garb,
                          > nobody will balk at it. The important thing is that you be
                          > comfortable.
                          >
                          > That said, pants are not all that common even for men in the S.C.A.'s
                          > core period. At most places, most men wore hosen of some sort or went
                          > bare-legged. If you're interested in an early-period persona from
                          > north-western Europe (a Viking-Age Saxon, Nord, or Gael, for instance),
                          >
                          > they might be an option for a male persona. But I've never seen any
                          > convincing evidence that women--including women who fought--regularly
                          > dressed in them.
                          >
                          > On the other hands, if your primary concern is with simplicity in
                          > clothing, full-length tunics are an excellent choice. They're not just
                          >
                          > easy to make. They're about as straightforward a garment to wear as
                          > you could ask for. For a more active or less high-ranking persona,
                          > skirts that end just above the feet are appropriate--they don't have to
                          >
                          > trail on the ground. If they have enough volume, they won't get in
                          > your way during most activities. And you needn't decorate your tunics
                          > elaborately or wear a lot of accessories.
                          >
                          >
                          > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                          > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                          > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                          > <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                          >
                          >
                        • David Roland
                          Greetings and well met unto you, Square One. I am a big believer in folks taking their time to pick out a person, name, device etc. So much so I wrote the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Apr 12, 2008
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                            Greetings and well met unto you, Square One.

                            I am a big believer in folks taking their time to pick out a person,
                            name, device etc. So much so I wrote the developed the Don't Speech and
                            occasionally post it here on this list.
                            http://ianthegreen01.googlepages.com/newcomeradviceonthesca

                            When my newcomers ask me how to pick their persona I give what advice I
                            can, which is to say very general advice only that hopefully helps them
                            to focus a little.

                            1 - What region or area of the world do you think is pretty cool? Go to
                            your local library and check out a book or three and check out the
                            history. I you still think its pretty cool, you might want to think
                            about being from there. Yes, you can do this kind of research online
                            but BE CAREFUL and make sure to use reputable resources.

                            2 - When is a time period that think is pretty cool? You might run
                            across this in your research of of history of where. If you're worried
                            that a when will limit you don't be. When is much, much more mutable in
                            the SCA than where.

                            3 - What kind of activities do you like doing in the SCA? This may
                            guide you to a when and where but don't limit youself because of these
                            things. After all I am a 13th century Scott and I fence and do Italian
                            Court dances (which are only documentable, to my knowledge, pretty much
                            post 1600). Just use them as a way to guide you.

                            4 - What kind of clothing do you like? You may get this idea from
                            others you've seen in the SCA, you may get this from movies (not the
                            best resource but hey its _pretty_), you may get this from you research
                            of where, and you may get this from one of those 20,000 years of
                            clothing books that are out there.

                            And just because something bad or good was typical for the culture in
                            the area doesn't mean you're locked into it for the SCA. Remember we
                            recreate the FUN parts of the pre 17th century world. We ignore things
                            like people being chattel (mobile property), drawing and quartering
                            people, and massive outbreaks of the plague (indoor sanitary plumbing is
                            a good thing).

                            Pick something that you will enjoy doing, even if this means you ignore
                            a few things. Don't worry about coming up with a back ground story
                            right away either. That will grow into your persona eventually as well.
                            If in the end you still can't find something, don't worry about it,
                            either something will come or it won't. But do keep having fun in the
                            SCA.

                            Just my thoughts

                            Ian the Green
                            Chatelain - Shire of Grey Gargoyles
                          • David Roland
                            I always address the person with their appropriate sex specific title. If they are female it is M lady, if they are male it is M lord. Quick anthropological
                            Message 13 of 30 , Apr 12, 2008
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                              I always address the person with their appropriate sex specific title.
                              If they are female it is M'lady, if they are male it is M'lord.

                              Quick anthropological aside here folks

                              sex = what your plumbing is. Male or Female

                              gender = What role you play in your society and which sex usually, but
                              not always, plays that role (IE old stereo type of man goes and works
                              and women stays home. If the man stays home his sex is still male but
                              his gender role is now female in this old stereotypical viewpoint).

                              Anthropological aside over.

                              I had a newcomer who was born Sarah and in the SCA ALWAYS wanted to be
                              referred to as Thomas. And so upon introducing her I introduced her
                              as M'lord Thomas. Should she get her AoA she will want to be called
                              Lord Thomas. She enjoys the male gender role in the SCA.

                              So when in doubt and you do not know the person, call the person by
                              they, apparent, sex they are first. If they wish to be called by a
                              different gender role, they will let you know. And just put that into
                              your memory bank for future knowledge for when you meet them again.
                              No big deal.

                              This also goes for people who have physically changed what sex they
                              are. (Yes, people who have made this choice are in the SCA just as in
                              everywhere else). Call that individual by their apparent sex and if
                              they correct you to their preferred gender call them by their
                              preferred gender.

                              Just my thoughts.

                              Ian the Green



                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, kathyg@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > I would like to get some other folks opion on this small item that
                              is related
                              > to this thread.
                              >
                              > When a female takes on a persona of the opposite sex, is dresses as the
                              > opposite sex, is takening part in activities as the opposite sex,
                              then do they
                              > expect / prefer to be addressed as Lord or Lady?
                              >
                              > Does the person speaking to them, overlook the body and address to
                              persona? Or
                              > does the person speaking address the body reguardless of what the
                              person is
                              > wearing?
                              >
                              > Thank you,
                              >
                              > Alara / Kathy
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Quoting Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>:
                              >
                              > > mistrisofdark wrote:
                              > > > I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am
                              trying
                              > >
                              > > > to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont
                              really
                              > > > want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
                              > > > choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.
                              > >
                              > > The first point I feel I should make is that it is very common and
                              > > *perfectly accepted* in the S.C.A. for an individual to take on a
                              > > persona of the sex opposite her own. A lot of women, especially,
                              take
                              > > on male personae for fighting. Some of them have alternate, female
                              > > persona that they adopt off the field. Some don't. If you choose to
                              > > call yourself "Charles" or "Gaspar" or something and wear male garb,
                              > > nobody will balk at it. The important thing is that you be
                              > > comfortable.
                              > >
                              > > That said, pants are not all that common even for men in the S.C.A.'s
                              > > core period. At most places, most men wore hosen of some sort or
                              went
                              > > bare-legged. If you're interested in an early-period persona from
                              > > north-western Europe (a Viking-Age Saxon, Nord, or Gael, for
                              instance),
                              > >
                              > > they might be an option for a male persona. But I've never seen any
                              > > convincing evidence that women--including women who fought--regularly
                              > > dressed in them.
                              > >
                              > > On the other hands, if your primary concern is with simplicity in
                              > > clothing, full-length tunics are an excellent choice. They're not
                              just
                              > >
                              > > easy to make. They're about as straightforward a garment to wear as
                              > > you could ask for. For a more active or less high-ranking persona,
                              > > skirts that end just above the feet are appropriate--they don't
                              have to
                              > >
                              > > trail on the ground. If they have enough volume, they won't get in
                              > > your way during most activities. And you needn't decorate your
                              tunics
                              > > elaborately or wear a lot of accessories.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                              > > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                              > > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                              > > <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • julian wilson
                              ... I would like to get some other folks opion on this small item that is related to this thread. When a female takes on a persona of the opposite sex, is
                              Message 14 of 30 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                --- On Sat, 12/4/08, kathyg@... <kathyg@...> wrote:

                                I would like to get some other folks opion on this small item that is related to this thread.

                                When a female takes on a persona of the opposite sex, is dresses as the opposite sex, is takening part in activities as the opposite sex, then do they expect / prefer to be addressed as Lord or Lady?

                                Does the person speaking to them, overlook the body and address to persona? Or does the person speaking address the body reguardless of what the person is wearing?SNIPPED


                                RESPONSE

                                Kathy,

                                you need to take a look at the website for "House Iron Rose" to get an informed answer on this one.

                                Under Links on their menu, there is a List for the SCA "Ladies of The Chivalry" - some of whom have been "fighting heavy" since the 1970's - or at least were "Knighted" that far back, even if they don't "don their harness" any more.

                                It seems to be a matter of choice for ladies who fight "heavy" as to whether they use male or female Titles - especially after being dubbed into the SCA "Order of Chivalry".

                                I've not seen any Society or Kingdom Rules on this one.

                                And, of course, if they gain other Titles then those will take Precedence. For example - Tobi Beck [Elina of Beckenham - I hope I have that right, your Grace?] gained her Duchess' Title "by the strength of her own arms", in the field, not as someone's Consort.

                                Other fighting ladies have done the same.



                                In service to the Light, to The Dream, and unto Drachenwald also,

                                Matthew Baker,

                                dwelling in "old" Jersey
                              • kathyg@hiwaay.net
                                Ian, M lord, you have made some good points, but I disagree. When addressing a knight / cornet / crown, then is the persona being addressed rather than the
                                Message 15 of 30 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                  Ian,

                                  M'lord, you have made some good points, but I disagree.

                                  When addressing a knight / cornet / crown, then is the persona being addressed
                                  rather than the person?

                                  If so, then why should the sex of the peson under the costume be assumed and
                                  address? For times in the SCA and in costume, and if the person goes to the
                                  trouble of dressing and behaving as the opposite sex, then should they not be
                                  addressed as such? If they dress and behave as the opposite sex, then such
                                  they not be addressed as such?

                                  The statement of sex being a person's plumbing is correct.

                                  I do not agree with the statement about gender. As I understand it, gender
                                  is "between the ears" or a mental state of self image.

                                  In the anthropological that you gave is some what correct. Yes, there are
                                  times and situations where the standard stereo roles are changed. But, the
                                  role a person plays in scoiety starts with their mental state and how they wish
                                  to present them self to society.

                                  In the example given:

                                  what if the girl grew up working the farm and hunting with her father, so she
                                  prefered to be outside?

                                  what if the boy as a child was sickly / handicappied, so he was at home with
                                  his mother a lot of the time, and so took on the domasticed role.

                                  While their "plumbing" would remain the same, but they identify with the group
                                  that they were with to the point of taking on a name, and dressing as part of
                                  that group, and in general "behaving" as a part of that group?

                                  With some garb, it is hard to tell which the person is, but when the person is
                                  clearly dressed one way or the other, and presenting themselves as a member of
                                  that group, then should they be addressed according to the garb / persona, at
                                  lest while they are that way? Then, when they change to mundane clothes, then
                                  their address can change too?

                                  Would it be better to address the way the person is presenting themselves
                                  rather than to guess / assume what their sex is? If a not-so-pretty,
                                  mascialing looking woman is wearing a dress, then, would addressing her as a
                                  Lord not be insulting and degradeing? Yes, from time to time, mistakes can be
                                  made, but why continue to re-enforce the ideal to that person that a female who
                                  is not atractive, and accepted by socity, then they can not be accepted for
                                  being the person that they are?

                                  So, my policy is to address the person as they present themselve, whither in
                                  garb or mundanes, and whither their clothing matches their physical plumbing or
                                  not.

                                  Just my view,

                                  Alara / Kathy


                                  Quoting David Roland <mystborne@...>:

                                  > I always address the person with their appropriate sex specific title.
                                  > If they are female it is M'lady, if they are male it is M'lord.
                                  >
                                  > Quick anthropological aside here folks
                                  >
                                  > sex = what your plumbing is. Male or Female
                                  >
                                  > gender = What role you play in your society and which sex usually, but
                                  > not always, plays that role (IE old stereo type of man goes and works
                                  > and women stays home. If the man stays home his sex is still male but
                                  > his gender role is now female in this old stereotypical viewpoint).
                                  >
                                  > Anthropological aside over.
                                  >
                                  > I had a newcomer who was born Sarah and in the SCA ALWAYS wanted to be
                                  > referred to as Thomas. And so upon introducing her I introduced her
                                  > as M'lord Thomas. Should she get her AoA she will want to be called
                                  > Lord Thomas. She enjoys the male gender role in the SCA.
                                  >
                                  > So when in doubt and you do not know the person, call the person by
                                  > they, apparent, sex they are first. If they wish to be called by a
                                  > different gender role, they will let you know. And just put that into
                                  > your memory bank for future knowledge for when you meet them again.
                                  > No big deal.
                                  >
                                  > This also goes for people who have physically changed what sex they
                                  > are. (Yes, people who have made this choice are in the SCA just as in
                                  > everywhere else). Call that individual by their apparent sex and if
                                  > they correct you to their preferred gender call them by their
                                  > preferred gender.
                                  >
                                  > Just my thoughts.
                                  >
                                  > Ian the Green
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, kathyg@... wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I would like to get some other folks opion on this small item that
                                  > is related
                                  > > to this thread.
                                  > >
                                  > > When a female takes on a persona of the opposite sex, is dresses as
                                  > the
                                  > > opposite sex, is takening part in activities as the opposite sex,
                                  > then do they
                                  > > expect / prefer to be addressed as Lord or Lady?
                                  > >
                                  > > Does the person speaking to them, overlook the body and address to
                                  > persona? Or
                                  > > does the person speaking address the body reguardless of what the
                                  > person is
                                  > > wearing?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you,
                                  > >
                                  > > Alara / Kathy
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Quoting Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>:
                                  > >
                                  > > > mistrisofdark wrote:
                                  > > > > I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am
                                  > trying
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont
                                  > really
                                  > > > > want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
                                  >
                                  > > > > choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The first point I feel I should make is that it is very common and
                                  > > > *perfectly accepted* in the S.C.A. for an individual to take on a
                                  > > > persona of the sex opposite her own. A lot of women, especially,
                                  > take
                                  > > > on male personae for fighting. Some of them have alternate, female
                                  >
                                  > > > persona that they adopt off the field. Some don't. If you choose
                                  > to
                                  > > > call yourself "Charles" or "Gaspar" or something and wear male garb,
                                  >
                                  > > > nobody will balk at it. The important thing is that you be
                                  > > > comfortable.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That said, pants are not all that common even for men in the
                                  > S.C.A.'s
                                  > > > core period. At most places, most men wore hosen of some sort or
                                  > went
                                  > > > bare-legged. If you're interested in an early-period persona from
                                  > > > north-western Europe (a Viking-Age Saxon, Nord, or Gael, for
                                  > instance),
                                  > > >
                                  > > > they might be an option for a male persona. But I've never seen any
                                  >
                                  > > > convincing evidence that women--including women who
                                  > fought--regularly
                                  > > > dressed in them.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On the other hands, if your primary concern is with simplicity in
                                  > > > clothing, full-length tunics are an excellent choice. They're not
                                  > just
                                  > > >
                                  > > > easy to make. They're about as straightforward a garment to wear as
                                  >
                                  > > > you could ask for. For a more active or less high-ranking persona,
                                  >
                                  > > > skirts that end just above the feet are appropriate--they don't
                                  > have to
                                  > > >
                                  > > > trail on the ground. If they have enough volume, they won't get in
                                  >
                                  > > > your way during most activities. And you needn't decorate your
                                  > tunics
                                  > > > elaborately or wear a lot of accessories.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                  > > > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                  > > > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                  > > > <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                  ... I think the answer to this is going to depend on where in the Known World you are. If you want to know what s typical in your area, you ll have to ask
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                    Alara / Kathy wrote:
                                    > When a female takes on a persona of the opposite sex, is dresses as
                                    > the opposite sex, is takening part in activities as the opposite sex,
                                    > then do they expect / prefer to be addressed as Lord or Lady?
                                    >
                                    > Does the person speaking to them, overlook the body and address to
                                    > persona? Or does the person speaking address the body reguardless of
                                    > what the person is wearing?

                                    I think the answer to this is going to depend on where in the Known
                                    World you are. If you want to know what's typical in your area, you'll
                                    have to ask someone who lives there.


                                    The answer will also depend on whether the women in question are merely
                                    dressed as men or are portraying male personae.

                                    We've got a number of female SCAdians with male personae in my area.
                                    There's no "Lady Gunther" or "Mistress Peter". Wouldn't make sense.
                                    When they're in their male personae's clothing and using their male
                                    personae's names, we treat them as though they're male.

                                    We also have a number of female SCAdians who put on masculine clothing
                                    to fight, but who don't change personae. In this case, we treat them
                                    as we normally would. No "Lord Mathilda" or "Master Gilian". The only
                                    masculine title that might apply is "Sir", which many female knights
                                    choose to use in preference to "Dame". (We also don't treat them as
                                    though they're cross-dressing and we've got medieval minds, of course.
                                    Like I said before, there's no stigma attached to the practice in the
                                    S.C.A.)

                                    If you don't know which approach the woman to whom you're speaking is
                                    taking, the default here is probably to go with "m'lady" or something
                                    gender-neutral (like "good gentles" to address a group or "pardon me"
                                    if you're trying to get her attention). If she's playing a male
                                    persona, she may correct a "m'lady" either off-handedly (by, for
                                    instance, just holding out her hand to shake and stating her name with
                                    a masculine title) or in persona (by, for instance, feigning startled
                                    insult and saying, "'Lady'! What do you mean by that?"), depending on
                                    how much fun she thinks the latter would be.


                                    By the way, because there are practical reasons for women--especially
                                    fighters--to put on masculine clothing, the
                                    female-persona-in-male-clothes thing is pretty common. There are even
                                    some women whose personae might have really done it, who stay deeply in
                                    persona while so dressed. (There was a notorious group of tourney
                                    groupies that used to dress like men, fight and spit and generally act
                                    like boys, to the intense disapproval of their elders, at one
                                    particular time and place, for instance.) But you can pretty much
                                    assume, if you see a man in unquestionably female clothing, that he's
                                    playing a female persona. Just don't confuse a floor-length tunic with
                                    flowing skirts for women's clothing. Those were as unisex in the
                                    Middle Ages as a t-shirt is today.


                                    Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                    Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                    Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                    <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                                  • David Roland
                                    ... When addressing a knight / cornet / crown, then is the persona being addressed rather than the person? No and yes. That person earned those titles and
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Apr 13, 2008
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                                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, kathyg@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Ian,
                                      >
                                      > M'lord, you have made some good points, but I disagree.
                                      >
                                      "When addressing a knight / cornet / crown, then is the persona being
                                      addressed rather than the person?"

                                      No and yes. That person earned those titles and so you are addressing
                                      the person. This of course gets into the realm of discussing persona
                                      play and therefor has lots of "fuzzy area". A discussion I am most
                                      willing to have off list. In short I will continue to recommend
                                      people address someone as their sex first.

                                      "If so, then why should the sex of the peson under the costume be
                                      assumed and address?

                                      Because we are modern people recreating the fun parts of the pre-17th
                                      century world. If someone chooses to play a gender different from
                                      their sex they can correct us politely and we can politely accept that
                                      and politely remember it for next time.

                                      "For times in the SCA and in costume, and if the person goes to the
                                      trouble of dressing and behaving as the opposite sex, then should they
                                      not be addressed as such?"

                                      Again we have the fact that we are modern people with modern
                                      sensibilities. Women may way shorts, pants, shirts that button on the
                                      right (though many still button on the left) etc. I can hardly call
                                      it "going through the trouble" of dressing as a man for a women. And
                                      I can imagine should I meet someone whom I don't know that is
                                      obviously male in obviously female garb that I would introduce myself
                                      thusly, "Greetings, I am Ian the Green, may I have the pleasure of
                                      knowing the name of the person I am addressing?" Carefully clipping
                                      out such gender specific titles. Why? Oh because the SCA is full of
                                      folks who enjoy doing silly things. One of which I have been witness
                                      too at several different events, not a LOT mind you, is a guy dressing
                                      up as a girl because he is playing the persona of a guy dressing up as
                                      a girl. NOT the persona of a female. Again, I am most willing to
                                      stand there and be corrected and remember it for later.


                                      If they dress and behave as the opposite sex, then such they not be
                                      addressed as such?

                                      Behave as the opposite sex? Coming from this modern world and
                                      entering into this SCA one, men sew, cook, clean, some bows look close
                                      to curtsys should I therefor call them by female titles first? I
                                      think that might be a touch presumptuous and land one in all sorts of
                                      trouble. Taking away the identity of a female who has no wish to be
                                      addressed as a man simply because she is in armor that is what we may
                                      think of as obviously male could be considered very cruel indeed to
                                      our modern sensibilities.

                                      "The statement of sex being a person's plumbing is correct."

                                      Thank you.

                                      "I do not agree with the statement about gender. As I understand it,
                                      gender is "between the ears" or a mental state of self image."

                                      That is a psychological definition, not an anthropological one. And
                                      so we now have competing definitions for the same word. Both are correct.

                                      "In the anthropological that you gave is some what correct. Yes,
                                      there are times and situations where the standard stereo roles are
                                      changed. But, the role a person plays in scoiety starts with their
                                      mental state and how they wish to present them self to society.

                                      In the example given:

                                      "what if the girl grew up working the farm and hunting with her
                                      father, so she prefered to be outside?

                                      "what if the boy as a child was sickly / handicappied, so he was at
                                      home with his mother a lot of the time, and so took on the domasticed
                                      role.

                                      While their "plumbing" would remain the same, but they identify with
                                      the group that they were with to the point of taking on a name, and
                                      dressing as part of that group, and in general "behaving" as a part of
                                      that group?"

                                      Psychologically they are what they choose to identify them self to be.
                                      (respectively to the examples) However, anthropologically they are
                                      playing the opposite gender role even if they dress accordingly to
                                      their sex. Again we have two different and correct definitions going
                                      on here and so we have the wonderfully interesting situation of both
                                      being correct but from different perspectives.

                                      And again in the SCA I recommend you address the sex first and let
                                      yourself be politely corrected and to politely accept that correction
                                      and remember that for next time.

                                      "With some garb, it is hard to tell which the person is, but when the
                                      person is clearly dressed one way or the other, and presenting
                                      themselves as a member of that group, then should they be addressed
                                      according to the garb / persona, at lest while they are that way?"

                                      See example above of a guy playing a guy persona who was dressing as
                                      an obvious female and wished to be addressed as a guy. Seen more than
                                      once and by different guys. Weird? Your call on that one but no more
                                      so than anything else I've seen in the SCA.

                                      "Then, when they change to mundane clothes, then their address can
                                      change too?"

                                      If that is their wish and I know it to be their wish then I will
                                      certainly comply with that wish. But you can't know until you are
                                      told. And it is this exact situation/issue that has me make the
                                      choice to address the sex first and then if corrected switch.


                                      "Would it be better to address the way the person is presenting
                                      themselves rather than to guess / assume what their sex is?"

                                      No, not in my mind for various reasons previously given.

                                      "If a not-so-pretty, mascialing looking woman is wearing a dress,
                                      then, would addressing her as a Lord not be insulting and degradeing?

                                      Funny you should mention that. No really its a funny story. My
                                      promised is a pretty no so masculine looking woman. Blond, blue eyed
                                      but is 5 feet 11 inches tall and has a bosom that is less than
                                      proportionate to her height. She and I both fence. One day she was
                                      taking a fencing class, was in armor, had her hood on but not her mask
                                      and was sitting down as was most of the class. The instructor asked
                                      in her general direction, M'lord can I have your assistance, asked
                                      again and addressing her, she finally figured out, as M'lord and she
                                      stood up and corrected him to M'lady. He apologized, she laughed and
                                      everything moved on. She still laughs about it. She has a fantastic,
                                      if slightly ill fitting dress that leaves no doubts as to her being a
                                      lady even from 50 feet away. Insulting? Only if people are so rude
                                      as to keep calling her M'lord after knowing better. Mistakes happen,
                                      we are a chivalrous society, we apologize, forgive and move on with
                                      honest mistakes.

                                      "Yes, from time to time, mistakes can be made, but why continue to
                                      re-enforce the ideal to that person that a female who is not
                                      attractive, and accepted by society, then they can not be accepted for
                                      being the person that they are?"

                                      I know several unattractive females in and outside the SCA. There is
                                      absolutely no excuse whatsoever to not be accepting of them and
                                      accepting of them as female if they choose to be identified as female,
                                      which most do. To do otherwise is to be a Cad. And so should they be
                                      dressed in something that we might think of as masculine clothing, I
                                      will call them by the appropriate female title. Unless they correct
                                      me otherwise of course.

                                      "So, my policy is to address the person as they present themselve,
                                      whither in garb or mundanes, and whither their clothing matches their
                                      physical plumbing or not.

                                      Just my view,

                                      Alara / Kathy"

                                      And I shall agree to disagree with you as pleasantly as we may. :-)

                                      Ian the Green
                                    • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 4/12/2008 9:22:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kathyg@hiwaay.net writes:
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Apr 13, 2008
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                                        In a message dated 4/12/2008 9:22:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                        kathyg@... writes:

                                        <<When a female takes on a persona of the opposite sex, is dresses as the
                                        opposite sex, is takening part in activities as the opposite sex, then do
                                        they
                                        expect / prefer to be addressed as Lord or Lady?

                                        Does the person speaking to them, overlook the body and address to persona?
                                        Or
                                        does the person speaking address the body reguardless of what the person is
                                        wearing?>>

                                        This really depends on WHY the person is cross-dressing. If they are
                                        cross-dressing because they seriously want to portray a member of the opposite sex
                                        accurately, then of course one should refer to them by the name of the person
                                        a they are dressed as.

                                        If, on the other hand, they are simply wearing the clothes they feel
                                        comfortable or find appropriate to the task they are dong, but aren't behaving any
                                        differently than they would if they were in their own gender's clothing, then
                                        I don't think it is such a big issue.

                                        Sometime it may also depend on whether you are having a private conversation
                                        with a person you know well, or if you are speaking to them publicly. An
                                        example from the event we were at yesterday, where my husband's apprentice
                                        brother was dressed in drag (an established secondary persona for him). When
                                        speaking to him in private, we used his male name, but when he was called into
                                        court, it was under the name of the female persona he was dressed as.


                                        Brangwayna Morgan
                                        Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                        Lancaster, PA



                                        **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money &
                                        Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • kathyg@hiwaay.net
                                        Ian & others, Thank you for discussing this with me. It has been very helpful and interesting to get a different view on this subject. I will keep your wise
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Apr 15, 2008
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                                          Ian & others,

                                          Thank you for discussing this with me.

                                          It has been very helpful and interesting to get a different view on this
                                          subject.

                                          I will keep your wise words in mind as I and others go forth to play in the SCA
                                          in "non-routine" clothing.

                                          Sincerely,

                                          Lady Alara

                                          ( mka Kathy )



                                          Quoting David Roland <mystborne@...>:

                                          > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, kathyg@... wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Ian,
                                          > >
                                          > > M'lord, you have made some good points, but I disagree.
                                          > >
                                          > "When addressing a knight / cornet / crown, then is the persona being
                                          > addressed rather than the person?"
                                          >
                                          > No and yes. That person earned those titles and so you are addressing
                                          > the person. This of course gets into the realm of discussing persona
                                          > play and therefor has lots of "fuzzy area". A discussion I am most
                                          > willing to have off list. In short I will continue to recommend
                                          > people address someone as their sex first.
                                          >
                                          > "If so, then why should the sex of the peson under the costume be
                                          > assumed and address?
                                          >
                                          > Because we are modern people recreating the fun parts of the pre-17th
                                          > century world. If someone chooses to play a gender different from
                                          > their sex they can correct us politely and we can politely accept that
                                          > and politely remember it for next time.
                                          >
                                          > "For times in the SCA and in costume, and if the person goes to the
                                          > trouble of dressing and behaving as the opposite sex, then should they
                                          > not be addressed as such?"
                                          >
                                          > Again we have the fact that we are modern people with modern
                                          > sensibilities. Women may way shorts, pants, shirts that button on the
                                          > right (though many still button on the left) etc. I can hardly call
                                          > it "going through the trouble" of dressing as a man for a women. And
                                          > I can imagine should I meet someone whom I don't know that is
                                          > obviously male in obviously female garb that I would introduce myself
                                          > thusly, "Greetings, I am Ian the Green, may I have the pleasure of
                                          > knowing the name of the person I am addressing?" Carefully clipping
                                          > out such gender specific titles. Why? Oh because the SCA is full of
                                          > folks who enjoy doing silly things. One of which I have been witness
                                          > too at several different events, not a LOT mind you, is a guy dressing
                                          > up as a girl because he is playing the persona of a guy dressing up as
                                          > a girl. NOT the persona of a female. Again, I am most willing to
                                          > stand there and be corrected and remember it for later.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > If they dress and behave as the opposite sex, then such they not be
                                          > addressed as such?
                                          >
                                          > Behave as the opposite sex? Coming from this modern world and
                                          > entering into this SCA one, men sew, cook, clean, some bows look close
                                          > to curtsys should I therefor call them by female titles first? I
                                          > think that might be a touch presumptuous and land one in all sorts of
                                          > trouble. Taking away the identity of a female who has no wish to be
                                          > addressed as a man simply because she is in armor that is what we may
                                          > think of as obviously male could be considered very cruel indeed to
                                          > our modern sensibilities.
                                          >
                                          > "The statement of sex being a person's plumbing is correct."
                                          >
                                          > Thank you.
                                          >
                                          > "I do not agree with the statement about gender. As I understand it,
                                          > gender is "between the ears" or a mental state of self image."
                                          >
                                          > That is a psychological definition, not an anthropological one. And
                                          > so we now have competing definitions for the same word. Both are
                                          > correct.
                                          >
                                          > "In the anthropological that you gave is some what correct. Yes,
                                          > there are times and situations where the standard stereo roles are
                                          > changed. But, the role a person plays in scoiety starts with their
                                          > mental state and how they wish to present them self to society.
                                          >
                                          > In the example given:
                                          >
                                          > "what if the girl grew up working the farm and hunting with her
                                          > father, so she prefered to be outside?
                                          >
                                          > "what if the boy as a child was sickly / handicappied, so he was at
                                          > home with his mother a lot of the time, and so took on the domasticed
                                          > role.
                                          >
                                          > While their "plumbing" would remain the same, but they identify with
                                          > the group that they were with to the point of taking on a name, and
                                          > dressing as part of that group, and in general "behaving" as a part of
                                          > that group?"
                                          >
                                          > Psychologically they are what they choose to identify them self to be.
                                          > (respectively to the examples) However, anthropologically they are
                                          > playing the opposite gender role even if they dress accordingly to
                                          > their sex. Again we have two different and correct definitions going
                                          > on here and so we have the wonderfully interesting situation of both
                                          > being correct but from different perspectives.
                                          >
                                          > And again in the SCA I recommend you address the sex first and let
                                          > yourself be politely corrected and to politely accept that correction
                                          > and remember that for next time.
                                          >
                                          > "With some garb, it is hard to tell which the person is, but when the
                                          > person is clearly dressed one way or the other, and presenting
                                          > themselves as a member of that group, then should they be addressed
                                          > according to the garb / persona, at lest while they are that way?"
                                          >
                                          > See example above of a guy playing a guy persona who was dressing as
                                          > an obvious female and wished to be addressed as a guy. Seen more than
                                          > once and by different guys. Weird? Your call on that one but no more
                                          > so than anything else I've seen in the SCA.
                                          >
                                          > "Then, when they change to mundane clothes, then their address can
                                          > change too?"
                                          >
                                          > If that is their wish and I know it to be their wish then I will
                                          > certainly comply with that wish. But you can't know until you are
                                          > told. And it is this exact situation/issue that has me make the
                                          > choice to address the sex first and then if corrected switch.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > "Would it be better to address the way the person is presenting
                                          > themselves rather than to guess / assume what their sex is?"
                                          >
                                          > No, not in my mind for various reasons previously given.
                                          >
                                          > "If a not-so-pretty, mascialing looking woman is wearing a dress,
                                          > then, would addressing her as a Lord not be insulting and degradeing?
                                          >
                                          > Funny you should mention that. No really its a funny story. My
                                          > promised is a pretty no so masculine looking woman. Blond, blue eyed
                                          > but is 5 feet 11 inches tall and has a bosom that is less than
                                          > proportionate to her height. She and I both fence. One day she was
                                          > taking a fencing class, was in armor, had her hood on but not her mask
                                          > and was sitting down as was most of the class. The instructor asked
                                          > in her general direction, M'lord can I have your assistance, asked
                                          > again and addressing her, she finally figured out, as M'lord and she
                                          > stood up and corrected him to M'lady. He apologized, she laughed and
                                          > everything moved on. She still laughs about it. She has a fantastic,
                                          > if slightly ill fitting dress that leaves no doubts as to her being a
                                          > lady even from 50 feet away. Insulting? Only if people are so rude
                                          > as to keep calling her M'lord after knowing better. Mistakes happen,
                                          > we are a chivalrous society, we apologize, forgive and move on with
                                          > honest mistakes.
                                          >
                                          > "Yes, from time to time, mistakes can be made, but why continue to
                                          > re-enforce the ideal to that person that a female who is not
                                          > attractive, and accepted by society, then they can not be accepted for
                                          > being the person that they are?"
                                          >
                                          > I know several unattractive females in and outside the SCA. There is
                                          > absolutely no excuse whatsoever to not be accepting of them and
                                          > accepting of them as female if they choose to be identified as female,
                                          > which most do. To do otherwise is to be a Cad. And so should they be
                                          > dressed in something that we might think of as masculine clothing, I
                                          > will call them by the appropriate female title. Unless they correct
                                          > me otherwise of course.
                                          >
                                          > "So, my policy is to address the person as they present themselve,
                                          > whither in garb or mundanes, and whither their clothing matches their
                                          > physical plumbing or not.
                                          >
                                          > Just my view,
                                          >
                                          > Alara / Kathy"
                                          >
                                          > And I shall agree to disagree with you as pleasantly as we may. :-)
                                          >
                                          > Ian the Green
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Jerry Hollifield
                                          ... Hi. like you i am new..i have been a falconer most of my life and so i wanted something in my name that i loved so i went with Raptor de Hawk...i don t
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 7, 2008
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                                            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "mistrisofdark"
                                            <mistrisofdark@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello group. Newcomer to scanewcomers. Im part of the shire of arenal
                                            > which is in meridias. I joined a little over a year ago and was re-
                                            > assured that there was no rush to jump and pick a persona and name.
                                            > Well its been a year now and I am still no closer to choosing a name
                                            > etc. I am sure this is something everyone struggled with and I was
                                            > hoping someone could give me a tip or two.
                                            > I want nothing grandious. My fiance and his family who persuaded me to
                                            > join are potraying Normans. Nothing wrong with that but I chafe at that
                                            > choice.
                                            > I suppose so much rests on the individual and what they wish to be seen
                                            > as. One Lady suggested I do early North American trapper. Not a
                                            > colonist she said french?? I think, but when i started researching
                                            > starting with 1498 and John Calbot I found it seems they started
                                            > pushing the Native American Indians away and fighting them. I was
                                            > hoping to find otherwise as I had in my head an Indian friendly
                                            > trapper. Long story, again based on my actual personality and heritage.
                                            > I know im fretting and getting to ocd over this but thats me.
                                            > Also has anyone had bad results from choosing a persona so late in the
                                            > sca timeframe?
                                            > Something tells me just choose english peasant and be done with it but
                                            > i can't.
                                            > I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am trying
                                            > to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont really
                                            > want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
                                            > choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.
                                            > Crown list is coming up next month for us and I so wish to atleast have
                                            > a name chosen instead of that awkward pause when I introduce myself at
                                            > events. But name hinges on period and place eh? Aye what a conundrum.
                                            > Help please and thank you.
                                            >
                                            Hi. like you i am new..i have been a falconer most of my life and so
                                            i wanted something in my name that i loved so i went with Raptor de
                                            Hawk...i don't think there is a rule you have to pick an individual
                                            from the past.Think of something you care about..that may work...good
                                            luck...Jerry
                                          • Oakes, George
                                            Jerry, and MistrisofDark, In the SCA, your persona, cannot/should not portray anyone real in the past. You cannot be queen elisabeth or henry the ?? king. You
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 7, 2008
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                                              Jerry, and MistrisofDark,

                                              In the SCA, your persona, cannot/should not portray anyone real in the
                                              past. You cannot be queen elisabeth or henry the ?? king. You can and
                                              should portray a person "WHO COULD HAVE EXISTED" in the past.
                                              in other words you invent a character, persona and name that would have
                                              been found to have lived in the land area you wish to "Come From". No
                                              mithical or make-believe creatures/persons are allowed either.

                                              So Jerry, in picking a name, it should have been something that could
                                              very well have existed in that area and timeframe.

                                              I picked mid 1200's scotish gaelic persona, so my name is Gavin Kinkade,
                                              both names were in use at that time, and in the area, scotish lowlands,
                                              where my persona would be coming from.

                                              I am also going back and forth between this persona, and another one
                                              that I may also want to portray, an English Forester, in basicaly the
                                              same area, and time frame, just a different race, but that name I chose
                                              would not be a good english name. So I may wish to change the family
                                              name, becuase Gavin would still be an ok first name, but Kinkade would
                                              have been scotish. And even though one race marrying another could have
                                              an probably existed, it still not in the same vein the SCA is trying to
                                              stay with.

                                              Hope this helps..
                                              Gavin

                                              ________________________________

                                              From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com]
                                              On Behalf Of Jerry Hollifield
                                              Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:47 AM
                                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re: stuck at square one



                                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                              <mailto:scanewcomers%40yahoogroups.com> , "mistrisofdark"
                                              <mistrisofdark@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello group. Newcomer to scanewcomers. Im part of the shire of arenal
                                              > which is in meridias. I joined a little over a year ago and was re-
                                              > assured that there was no rush to jump and pick a persona and name.
                                              > Well its been a year now and I am still no closer to choosing a name
                                              > etc. I am sure this is something everyone struggled with and I was
                                              > hoping someone could give me a tip or two.
                                              > I want nothing grandious. My fiance and his family who persuaded me to

                                              > join are potraying Normans. Nothing wrong with that but I chafe at
                                              that
                                              > choice.
                                              > I suppose so much rests on the individual and what they wish to be
                                              seen
                                              > as. One Lady suggested I do early North American trapper. Not a
                                              > colonist she said french?? I think, but when i started researching
                                              > starting with 1498 and John Calbot I found it seems they started
                                              > pushing the Native American Indians away and fighting them. I was
                                              > hoping to find otherwise as I had in my head an Indian friendly
                                              > trapper. Long story, again based on my actual personality and
                                              heritage.
                                              > I know im fretting and getting to ocd over this but thats me.
                                              > Also has anyone had bad results from choosing a persona so late in the

                                              > sca timeframe?
                                              > Something tells me just choose english peasant and be done with it but

                                              > i can't.
                                              > I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots and am trying
                                              > to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female I dont really
                                              > want to get into all the dresses and costume that I see most women
                                              > choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.
                                              > Crown list is coming up next month for us and I so wish to atleast
                                              have
                                              > a name chosen instead of that awkward pause when I introduce myself at

                                              > events. But name hinges on period and place eh? Aye what a conundrum.
                                              > Help please and thank you.
                                              >
                                              Hi. like you i am new..i have been a falconer most of my life and so
                                              i wanted something in my name that i loved so i went with Raptor de
                                              Hawk...i don't think there is a rule you have to pick an individual
                                              from the past.Think of something you care about..that may work...good
                                              luck...Jerry






                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Nicole E. Miller
                                              Infact there is a rule that you cannot pick the name of someone in the past (if you want to register it). If you have no planns of registering a name (but
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 7, 2008
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                                                Infact there is a rule that you cannot pick the name of someone in the past (if you want to register it). If you have no planns of registering a name (but understand that you can't register any device or badge without a registered name) you can call yourself what ever you like. I don't reccomend calling yourself Julius Ceasar, or something else that belonged to a very famous person, but if you really want to be know as "Tim the Toolman" go ahead.

                                                Sometimes it is easiest to start with just a first name you like. There is no requirement that everybody has a first, middle and last name and has a specific place of origin and has it registered with the College of Heralds just to play. I know people who have been playing for more than 15 years without a full SCA name.

                                                Hope this helps take some pressure off.

                                                Sian verch Gwilim



                                                ---- Jerry Hollifield <meerkat22@...> wrote:

                                                Hi. like you i am new..i have been a falconer most of my life and so
                                                i wanted something in my name that i loved so i went with Raptor de
                                                Hawk...i don't think there is a rule you have to pick an individual
                                                from the past.Think of something you care about..that may work...good
                                                luck...Jerry
                                              • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                                ... There are no rules about what you can *call* yourself. (Though if you choose something obscene or profoundly offensive you should expect people to react
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 7, 2008
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                                                  Jerry wrote:
                                                  > i have been a falconer most of my life and so i wanted something in my
                                                  > name that i loved so i went with Raptor de Hawk...i don't think there
                                                  > is a rule you have to pick an individual from the past.Think of
                                                  > something you care about..that may work...

                                                  There are no rules about what you can *call* yourself. (Though if you
                                                  choose something obscene or profoundly offensive you should expect
                                                  people to react accordingly.) But there are definite rules about what
                                                  you can register with the College of Arms.

                                                  Registration has several benefits:

                                                  --It reserves your name for you alone. No two S.C.A. names can be the
                                                  same. (And "the same" is more complicated than you might think.
                                                  "Elizabeth Shaw" and "Bess Shaw" are considered the same, because
                                                  "Bess" is short for "Elizabeth", for example.) Of course, that also
                                                  means that if somebody else registers the name you love before you get
                                                  around to it, you're no longer entitled to use it. They have become
                                                  the official "real" whomever.

                                                  --It makes it possible for you to register armory (i.e., a heraldic
                                                  device and/or up to three badges for yourself or a household or other
                                                  group). No two registered pieces of armory can be too similar, either
                                                  (and what constitutes "too similar" is w-a-y more complicated than you
                                                  probably think), so if you don't register your device you can never be
                                                  sure somebody else won't register it and become its rightful owner.
                                                  And, yes, you might be called into court and ordered to stop carrying a
                                                  shield, wearing a surcoat, or using other items that have somebody
                                                  else's device on them, even if you've been doing so since before it was
                                                  registered. Somebody else's property is somebody else's property.

                                                  --In some kingdoms, you have to have a registered name and registered
                                                  armory to get an official award scroll. If someone who doesn't have
                                                  those elements is awarded arms, or in some cases given other honors,
                                                  they have to make due with a promissory note.

                                                  --The registration process puts your proposed name up for review before
                                                  the best onomasticians and book heralds active in the S.C.A. They will
                                                  let you know if you've got something that sounds real, something nobody
                                                  in the Middle Ages or Renaissance would recognize as a name, or
                                                  something that could sound real with a few changes. They'll help you
                                                  avoid potentially embarrassing mistakes like calling yourself "son of"
                                                  when your persona is female or using the word for "muck" as your first
                                                  name *before* everybody you know has memorized it. They'll also make
                                                  it possible for you to have a really, really, realistic medieval or
                                                  Renaissance name without being an onomastician or herald yourself, so
                                                  no matter how interested in history you later get you'll always have an
                                                  S.C.A. name of which you can be proud and that you'll remain
                                                  comfortable using.


                                                  I strongly recommend all newcomers read "Choosing a Society Name: Hints
                                                  for Newcomers" <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/dietmar/hints.html>
                                                  before they pick something to call themselves in the Society. I also
                                                  strongly recommend they follow its recommendations when they do pick.
                                                  There are NO advantages to choosing a "starter S.C.A. name" that can't
                                                  be registered and doesn't resemble a real medieval or Renaissance name.
                                                  All you'd be doing is restricting your options later.

                                                  If you just want to choose something quickly and get on with it, go to
                                                  the Medieval Names Archive, pick a culture, pick an article with a list
                                                  of names from that culture, and pick a first and second name off the
                                                  list. (If there's a "how to" article for the culture, you should
                                                  probably read that first. There's a reason those exist for the
                                                  cultures that have them.) It's so easy a three-year-old could do it.
                                                  (I know, because mine did. Yes, he could read. . .maybe an average
                                                  six-year-old.) You'll have a name that's at least close to correct for
                                                  that time and place, and if you choose to change it later, it's no
                                                  harder to give up a good name than one you picked out of a fantasy
                                                  novel or made up out of whole cloth. On the other hand, if once you've
                                                  settled into a name and used it for a year or two you discover that you
                                                  *don't* want to hassle with switching to a different name, you won't
                                                  have to choose between doing so and registering that spiffy device
                                                  you're itching to paint on your shield.

                                                  There are people who make "don't lock yourself into anything" a mantra
                                                  for newcomers. Well, let me add another. Don't close any doors in
                                                  your own face.


                                                  Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                                  Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                                  Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                                  <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                                                • Tim
                                                  First off, welcome to the SCA and to the list. It seems that choosing a persona and device are the two biggest questions and worries that most have on this
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                                                    First off, welcome to the SCA and to the list. It seems that
                                                    choosing a persona and device are the two biggest questions and
                                                    worries that most have on this list. I have seen people come back
                                                    with the rules of what you can and can not be called in the SCA, so
                                                    I'm not going to beat the dead horse on this.

                                                    North American personas are very rare and very hard to either
                                                    document if you wish to register the name. I know of only one Native
                                                    American persona and two "explorers". Depending on if you want to
                                                    register a name and/or device, I suggest sticking to a European
                                                    region. Your persona or "life story" can place you anywhere in the
                                                    world. My persona is 16th c Swiss German as a member of the Vatican
                                                    Guard. Now when I started 20+ years ago, I was in a Shire that was
                                                    overrun with Scotts and Irish persona and I really didn't want to be
                                                    a Lemming. My selection of where and when I came from was unique. I
                                                    took three darts, a world map, and 10 feet away I let them fly. One
                                                    was in the Pacific Ocean, one in Antarctica, and one was what looked
                                                    like Germany but was in Switzerland. Late 1500's only came when I
                                                    started looking a Swiss history books. Otto came from a Baron in a
                                                    local barony, sounded like a good name at the time. von Schwyz is
                                                    the canton that Otto comes from.

                                                    Until you find your persona, I have seen dozens use John/Jane
                                                    of "your local canton/shire". There is nothing wrong with this and
                                                    it tells people where you're from, a good ice breaker. You asked if
                                                    I encountered any problems with late period personas, nope none at
                                                    all. You are looking into heavy fighting; by all means go for it.
                                                    There are some very good female fighters in the SCA and I would like
                                                    to see more.

                                                    As for garb, nothing wrong with not wanting to wear a dress. One
                                                    reason that I didn't pick a Scottish persona when I first started. I
                                                    know a "lady" that is a navel Captain, privateer in nature. Very
                                                    late period and historically documentable and accurate. Most of
                                                    these women sailors were either under disguise as young men to a few
                                                    that were very well known as a woman. But off the top of my head, I
                                                    think those Captains are out of period.

                                                    Remember, you are here to have fun. Personas develop and grow as you
                                                    play the game. Once you start looking into things that you like,
                                                    you'll find something that will stick and grow. Get to know your
                                                    herald; a good herald knows what you can and can't do for names.

                                                    Have fun,
                                                    Otto von Schwyz



                                                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "mistrisofdark"
                                                    <mistrisofdark@...wrote:

                                                    Hello group. Newcomer to scanewcomers. I'm part of the shire of
                                                    arenal which is in meridias. I joined a little over a year ago and
                                                    was re-assured that there was no rush to jump and pick a persona and
                                                    name. Well it's been a year now and I am still no closer to choosing
                                                    a name etc. I am sure this is something everyone struggled with and I
                                                    was hoping someone could give me a tip or two. I want nothing
                                                    grandiose. My fiancé and his family who persuaded me to join are
                                                    portraying Normans. Nothing wrong with that but I chafe at that
                                                    choice.

                                                    I suppose so much rests on the individual and what they wish to be
                                                    seen as. One Lady suggested I do early North American trapper. Not a
                                                    colonist she said French?? I think, but when I started researching
                                                    starting with 1498 and John Calbot I found it seems they started
                                                    pushing the Native American Indians away and fighting them. I was
                                                    hoping to find otherwise as I had in my head an Indian friendly
                                                    trapper. Long story, again based on my actual personality and
                                                    heritage. I know I'm fretting and getting to ocd over this but that's
                                                    me. Also has anyone had bad results from choosing a persona so late
                                                    in the SCA timeframe?

                                                    Something tells me just choose English peasant and be done with it
                                                    but I can't. I prefer wearing tunics and breeches with mocs or boots
                                                    and am trying to get into heavy fighting time allowing. Being female
                                                    I don't really want to get into all the dresses and costume that I
                                                    see most women choose. Perhaps for court but not at smaller events.

                                                    Crown list is coming up next month for us and me so wish to at least
                                                    have a name chosen instead of that awkward pause when I introduce
                                                    myself at events. But name hinges on period and place eh? Aye what a
                                                    conundrum.

                                                    Help please and thank you.
                                                  • David Roland
                                                    ... heraldic ... other ... You can of course go ahead and register your amory (device or badges) under a holding name as well, so you don t HAVE to register
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                                                      > Registration has several benefits:


                                                      > --It makes it possible for you to register armory (i.e., a
                                                      heraldic
                                                      > device and/or up to three badges for yourself or a household or
                                                      other
                                                      > group).

                                                      You can of course go ahead and register your amory (device or
                                                      badges) under a "holding name" as well, so you don't HAVE to
                                                      register a name to register a device. That said it can complicate
                                                      things for later should you choose to register a name after you
                                                      register a device.


                                                      >
                                                      > --In some kingdoms, you have to have a registered name and
                                                      registered
                                                      > armory to get an official award scroll.

                                                      Find out if you are in one of these kingdoms. If you aren't don't
                                                      worry about it unless you plan to move to another kingdom and expect
                                                      to immediately get an award there. Otherwise worry about it after
                                                      you get there.

                                                      > I strongly recommend all newcomers read "Choosing a Society Name:
                                                      Hints
                                                      > for Newcomers" <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/dietmar/hints.html>
                                                      > before they pick something to call themselves in the Society. I
                                                      also
                                                      > strongly recommend they follow its recommendations when they do
                                                      pick.

                                                      Contrary to what some may believe, I'm all for registering your
                                                      name, just not in your first year of the SCA. Take the time to find
                                                      out what you want and the above is one great way to research that
                                                      and try stuff out.

                                                      > If you just want to choose something quickly and get on with it,
                                                      go to
                                                      > the Medieval Names Archive, pick a culture, pick an article with a
                                                      list
                                                      > of names from that culture, and pick a first and second name off
                                                      the
                                                      > list. (If there's a "how to" article for the culture, you should
                                                      > probably read that first. There's a reason those exist for the
                                                      > cultures that have them.) It's so easy a three-year-old could do
                                                      it.
                                                      > (I know, because mine did. Yes, he could read. . .maybe an
                                                      average
                                                      > six-year-old.) You'll have a name that's at least close to
                                                      correct for
                                                      > that time and place, and if you choose to change it later, it's no
                                                      > harder to give up a good name than one you picked out of a fantasy
                                                      > novel or made up out of whole cloth. On the other hand, if once
                                                      you've
                                                      > settled into a name and used it for a year or two you discover
                                                      that you
                                                      > *don't* want to hassle with switching to a different name, you
                                                      won't
                                                      > have to choose between doing so and registering that spiffy device
                                                      > you're itching to paint on your shield.

                                                      Just don't register you name in the first year of your SCA life
                                                      because "the Society never forgets" and people will continue to call
                                                      you by that name for a very long time. Try things out first to see
                                                      if you like it, THEN register it if you do.

                                                      The Don't Speech:

                                                      http://ianthegreen01.googlepages.com/newcomeradviceonthesca

                                                      >
                                                      > There are people who make "don't lock yourself into anything" a
                                                      mantra
                                                      > for newcomers. Well, let me add another. Don't close any doors
                                                      in
                                                      > your own face.

                                                      And the whole registering/not registering your name can do both at
                                                      the same time. If you register you name you close all sorts of
                                                      doors, which can be a very good thing, or a bad thing, so wait a
                                                      while, try it on and RESEARCH names for something you might like.
                                                      As a newcomer picking a name in the SCA can be pretty daunting.
                                                      Frankly, I tell all my newcomers, research, try things out and wait
                                                      a year to give yourself time to figure out if you like it. THEN
                                                      register it to your hearts content.

                                                      Just remember, like anything else in the SCA you are going to
                                                      receive all sorts of conflicting advice. I often tell people if you
                                                      ask five people in a group advice on one thing you will get seven
                                                      different opinions. Do what works for you, but don't let anyone
                                                      tell you that you HAVE to do anything. You are free to choose any
                                                      time period pre-17th century from any culture in the world (see
                                                      Corpora before arguing please). Have fun, enjoy and move forward at
                                                      YOUR pace, not anyone elses.

                                                      Ian
                                                    • Sara L Uckelman
                                                      ... This is not quite correct. The term holding name is a special label used only by the Laurel Sovereign of Arms. A person can be given a holding name if
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                                                        Quoth "David Roland":
                                                        > > --It makes it possible for you to register armory (i.e., a
                                                        > heraldic
                                                        > > device and/or up to three badges for yourself or a household or
                                                        > other
                                                        > > group).
                                                        >
                                                        > You can of course go ahead and register your amory (device or
                                                        > badges) under a "holding name" as well, so you don't HAVE to
                                                        > register a name to register a device.

                                                        This is not quite correct. The term "holding name" is a special
                                                        label used only by the Laurel Sovereign of Arms. A person can
                                                        be given a holding name if the name they have submitted is not
                                                        registerable but the armory they have submitted is. Since all
                                                        registered armory must be associated with a name, the holding
                                                        name prevents registerable armory from being returned just because
                                                        the name was also returned. Only Laurel can create holding names,
                                                        but changing a holding name is easy because it never costs any
                                                        fees. (You just have to send the relevant paperwork to your
                                                        kingdom submissions herald.)

                                                        So, you do have to have a registered name in order to register a
                                                        device. If Laurel creates a holding name, that *is* your registered
                                                        name, until such time as you choose to change it.

                                                        > That said it can complicate
                                                        > things for later should you choose to register a name after you
                                                        > register a device.

                                                        As noted above, it is not possible to register a device without
                                                        having submitted a name. Changing your name once it has been
                                                        registered is straightforward; it handled exactly the same was as
                                                        registering the name in the first place, you just check the "change"
                                                        box on the submissions forms.

                                                        -Aryanhwy



                                                        --
                                                        vita sine literis mors est
                                                        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                                                      • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                                        ... Someone should probably mention, too, that in some kingdoms your official, registered name will go on any awards you receive regardless of whether you ve
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                                                          Ian wrote:
                                                          > You can of course go ahead and register your amory (device or badges)
                                                          > under a "holding name" as well, so you don't HAVE to register a name
                                                          > to register a device.

                                                          Aryanhwy answered:
                                                          > If Laurel creates a holding name, that *is* your registered name,
                                                          > until such time as you choose to change it.

                                                          Someone should probably mention, too, that in some kingdoms your
                                                          official, registered name will go on any awards you receive regardless
                                                          of whether you've ever used it for anything else. (It may even be a
                                                          Society policy that some branches in some kingdoms are just more
                                                          conscientious about following; I'm not sure.) Since it's just a
                                                          place-holder, Laurel doesn't sweat too much about what to use for a
                                                          holding name. You could end up with the S.C.A. equivalent of "Jane
                                                          Doe" on your scroll(s).


                                                          Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                                          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                                          Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                                          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                                                        • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                                          ... You know, I hear that noised about a lot. But my observation has been that (1) most people are willing to make an effort to switch over to a new name if
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                                                            Ian wrote:
                                                            > Just don't register you name in the first year of your SCA life
                                                            > because "the Society never forgets" and people will continue to call
                                                            > you by that name for a very long time.

                                                            You know, I hear that noised about a lot. But my observation has been
                                                            that (1) most people are willing to make an effort to switch over to a
                                                            new name if they know you want them to and that (2) the better-known
                                                            someone is by Name A, the longer it takes for them to switch to Name B.
                                                            Someone brand-new to the S.C.A. who hasn't even had time to research a
                                                            name yet can probably change her name in about a week. It took our
                                                            Minister of A&S, who'd been using the same name for over 15 years and
                                                            is one of the best-known artisans in our area, about six months to get
                                                            everybody to start calling her by the new one. It took our Hospitaler,
                                                            who'd been around for a couple of years and a very visible part of our
                                                            barony, maybe two. I don't know how long it took the inimitable
                                                            Tangwystyl
                                                            <http://www.heatherrosejones.com/simplearticles/taleoftangwystyl.html>,
                                                            but I've never heard anyone call her anything else, or seen her older
                                                            name anywhere other than in her article on the subject.

                                                            In any event, it's what people CALL you that lingers, not what you
                                                            register. Changing what you've registered always and only takes
                                                            exactly as long as the paperwork does. So even if the "it's so hard to
                                                            change it" argument were valid, it would be an argument against
                                                            choosing a name at all, not registering one. And since it takes just
                                                            as long to get it into everybody's head that the name they've been
                                                            using is your real-life name and now you want them to call you
                                                            something else as it does to get it into their heads that the name
                                                            they've been using was your "'til I decide" name and now you want them
                                                            to call you something else, you don't gain anything by not choosing a
                                                            good medieval name to use. (They're not going to call you "Hey, you!"
                                                            indefinitely.)

                                                            I wrote:
                                                            > There are people who make "don't lock yourself into anything" a mantra
                                                            > for newcomers. Well, let me add another. Don't close any doors in
                                                            > your own face.

                                                            Ian answered:
                                                            > And the whole registering/not registering your name can do both at the
                                                            > same time. If you register you name you close all sorts of doors,
                                                            > which can be a very good thing, or a bad thing, so wait a while, try
                                                            > it on and RESEARCH names for something you might like.

                                                            I don't recommend you register a name you're not sure you want to keep,
                                                            either, but only because it takes about a year for the paperwork to
                                                            process and if you decide you want a different one half way through
                                                            you've wasted everybody's time and effort. Registering a name doesn't
                                                            make anything happen that you can't make un-happen just by releasing
                                                            it. It doesn't lock you into anything.


                                                            Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                                            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                                            Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                                            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                                                          • Briana Delaney
                                                            This don t lock yourself in mentality drives me NUTS! I have been researching my name since BEFORE I was in the SCA. I had not done serious research
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                                                              This "don't lock yourself in" mentality drives me NUTS! I have been
                                                              researching my name since BEFORE I was in the SCA. I had not done serious
                                                              research then, but asked questions to people who might know, and now have
                                                              dug much deeper. I still need to register my name, but, I have all the
                                                              research done now, and got only a small amount of help with it (I needed the
                                                              Drachenwald herald for a bit!) I actually probably could have used what I
                                                              had but I wanted to see primary documentation...I'm picky sometimes!

                                                              Now, I have been in the SCA for ... 5 months. I think it's time.

                                                              Begging to differ,

                                                              (not telling my name; you can't have it)


                                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            • Kristine Elliott
                                                              On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Coblaith Mhuimhneach ... I ve changed my name 2 times (well, actually just a bit more.) Roughly, I went from Triste (completely
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , May 8, 2008
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                                                                On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                                                <Coblaith@...> wrote:
                                                                > Ian wrote:
                                                                >> Just don't register you name in the first year of your SCA life
                                                                >> because "the Society never forgets" and people will continue to call
                                                                >> you by that name for a very long time.
                                                                >
                                                                > You know, I hear that noised about a lot. But my observation has been
                                                                > that (1) most people are willing to make an effort to switch over to a
                                                                > new name if they know you want them to and that (2) the better-known
                                                                > someone is by Name A, the longer it takes for them to switch to Name B.

                                                                I've changed my name 2 times (well, actually just a bit more.)
                                                                Roughly, I went from Triste (completely undocumentable) to Cateline to
                                                                Scolastica. The first big change was from something unregisterable to
                                                                something registerable. The second change was from something I knew I
                                                                was mispronouncing and had grown to dislike to something documentable
                                                                to my time and place AND that I had loved when I ran across it 25
                                                                years before. (Then it didn't fit my persona.)

                                                                I find the important thing with a name change is to announce it
                                                                publicly, explain why and ask people to help by using your new name.
                                                                Those that respect your wishes will. Those that refuse to even try –
                                                                are they really worth retaining as friends? That's my attitude. I
                                                                figure that calling someone by the name they want to be called is a
                                                                real basic level of respect that is reasonable to give to any human
                                                                being.

                                                                Scolastica
                                                                --
                                                                http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                                                                If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least teach
                                                                'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
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