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Re: coat of arms

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  • Labhaoise O'Beachain
    Just because there is a coat of arms for your name doesn t mean that you are in any way qualified to it. These companies research by looking for a name
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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      Just because there is a coat of arms for "your" name doesn't mean
      that you are in any way qualified to it.

      These companies 'research" by looking for a name match, nothing
      more... Some names have multiple coats of arms from the same modern
      country or from different modern countries.

      Most of us don't have a patrilineal line of decent for many
      generations, and our surname only goes back a short way. People who
      were protected by a "King" would often take that name.

      Why do you think your name is rare? Are you the only ones you know,
      have they died out in the area you come from? Many names that are
      rare here and now, were common somewhere and sometime.

      labhaoise

      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "wayne_schlapkohl" <wayne.s@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Folks,
      >
      > I'm a complete newbie at this, so excuse a naive question. My wife
      just
      > received a copy of her coat of arms from a heraldry site. She was a
      bit
      > sceptical though saying, "I come from a long line of peasants and
      > farmers. Why would my family need a coat of arms?" I don't have an
      > answer. Did even relatively rare names or names of people in lower
      > economic statuses have coat of arms. That would include my name
      too. I
      > think I too come from a long line of peasants.
      >
      > Thanks in advance,
      >
      > Wayne
      >
    • Carrie McGinnis
      Wayne-- I m also an SCA Newbie, but my Aunt does geneology and has for as long as I can remember. Listen to the man who kept turning his internal herald and/or
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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        Wayne--

        I'm also an SCA Newbie, but my Aunt does geneology and has for as long as I
        can remember. Listen to the man who kept turning his internal herald and/or
        geneologist on and off. If you really want to know your family's coat of
        arms, you'll have to trace your line backwards and find out what happened.
        As a personal example of this, I can share with you that there are a lot of
        McGinnis's and none of us spells it the same, related or not, and more to
        the point, most of us are not relatives, not even distant. And, for that
        matter, if you understand how naming goes, nobody ever made a living at beer
        at any point in my pedigree. ;-)

        Now, as the girlfriend of a herald, I can assure you that the advise you've
        already received is correct -- no matter how well researched, how many
        volumes of data, how many times someone had to Belfast or Northern Ireland
        in spite of recent civil unrest to confirm the accuracy of the claim, or how
        convincing you are on these points, you cannot register your family coat of
        arms as your own. The best course of action is to find a nice herald who
        will consent to be your friend and make one just for you. Then it can be
        truly your own, and you can elevate yourself in stature from a family of
        pesants to a newly created noble in the SCA. :D I promise you, it's great
        fun!

        --Carrie

        On Jan 2, 2008 3:04 PM, wayne_schlapkohl <wayne.s@...> wrote:

        > Hi Folks,
        >
        > I'm a complete newbie at this, so excuse a naive question. My wife just
        > received a copy of her coat of arms from a heraldry site. She was a bit
        > sceptical though saying, "I come from a long line of peasants and
        > farmers. Why would my family need a coat of arms?" <interesting post
        > snipped short for the sake of expediency>


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Signora Beatrice
        Greetings from Beatrice. ... [MUCH SNIPPAGE] ... *with tongue FIRMLY in cheek* And finding heralds is SOOO difficult. There are NONE of us around, and none
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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          Greetings from Beatrice.

          --- Carrie McGinnis <furdreams@...> wrote:
          [MUCH SNIPPAGE]
          > The best course of action is to find a nice herald who
          > will consent to be your friend and make one just for you. Then it can be
          > truly your own, and you can elevate yourself in stature from a family of
          > pesants to a newly created noble in the SCA. :D I promise you, it's
          > great
          > fun!

          *with tongue FIRMLY in cheek*

          And finding heralds is SOOO difficult. There are NONE of us around, and
          none online, and no mailing lists or websites or anything USEFUL to get in
          touch with them.

          *takes tongue out of cheek*

          If you're interested in going this route (which I recommend highly), look
          on your Kingdom website and look at the Herald for your Kingdom. Then
          email them. Ask them for a reference to someone in your area to consult
          with, or for a consulting table at an upcoming event. Heralds are happy
          to help, and ESPECIALLY happy to help BEFORE you get your heart set on
          something that won't work.

          Contrary to (occasionlly pouplar) belief, Heralds are not ogres, and we
          really do WANT to help you.


          In Service,
          Signora Beatrice Domenici della Campana, AoA
          Tree-Girt-Sea, Midlands, Middle Kingdom


          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        • Sara L Uckelman
          ... Both you and your wife should check out this FAQ entry from the www.heraldica.org website: http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/mfaq This will probably explain
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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            Quoth "wayne_schlapkohl":
            > I'm a complete newbie at this, so excuse a naive question. My wife just
            > received a copy of her coat of arms from a heraldry site. She was a bit
            > sceptical though saying, "I come from a long line of peasants and
            > farmers. Why would my family need a coat of arms?" I don't have an
            > answer. Did even relatively rare names or names of people in lower
            > economic statuses have coat of arms. That would include my name too. I
            > think I too come from a long line of peasants.

            Both you and your wife should check out this FAQ entry from the
            www.heraldica.org website:

            http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/mfaq

            This will probably explain some of the (prefectly correct!) skepticism
            that she had. Arms belonged to a person, not a family or a surname.

            -Aryanhwy



            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          • wayne_schlapkohl
            Thanks a ton for those responses. Labhaoise s comment has me curious now! Labhaoise commented Just because there is a coat of arms for your name doesn t
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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              Thanks a ton for those responses.

              Labhaoise's comment has me curious now!

              Labhaoise commented "Just because there is a coat of arms for "your"
              name doesn't mean that you are in any way qualified to it. ...Why do
              you think your name is rare? Are you the only ones you know, have
              they died out in the area you come from? Many names that are rare
              here and now, were common somewhere and sometime."


              You are right, I know very few Schlapkohl(s) and I think I read once
              there are only 90 in North America. But in Germany there may be many
              more.

              I am probably barking up a dead end here, and I've read the latter
              comments that say if I am interested in a coat of arms I should speak
              to a herald to help me design one of mine own. OK, I'm happy to do
              that but, but, well I am curious if I come from the line of
              Schlapkohls that once had the coat of arms I've seen (yes in malls
              and heraldry web sites). Is there a way of finding out what
              individual had been granted a coat of arms or is that just
              impossible. Schlapkohl is an old name (the oldest reference I've seen
              is the 1380s so were talking about some 700 years of relatives here),
              so I would (maybe with some grumbling:) accept it if you folks
              said "no, it's just impossible to do that kind of geneology."

              Thanks again,

              Wayne
            • Sara L Uckelman
              ... It s possible, but sometimes difficult. If the coat of arms was either granted by the English College of Arms, or is something that was ratified by them,
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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                Quoth "wayne_schlapkohl":
                > and heraldry web sites). Is there a way of finding out what
                > individual had been granted a coat of arms or is that just
                > impossible.

                It's possible, but sometimes difficult.

                If the coat of arms was either granted by the English College
                of Arms, or is something that was ratified by them, then it's
                probably possible to find information in their records
                (though those records are in general restricted in access).

                Another way to find out whether someone with a particular
                surname had a coat of arms would be to look through medieval
                rolls of arms or armorials; these are page of arms, usually
                in full achievement, listed with the bearer's name. The
                Medieval Heraldry Archive, http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/,
                has links to a number of armorials available in electronic
                format. As libraries digitize their old books and manuscripts,
                more of these armorials are becoming easily accessible.

                -Aryanhwy


                --
                vita sine literis mors est
                http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
              • Carrie McGinnis
                ... Pray tell who is spreading this nasty rumor?!!! I sent but one teensey weensie little e-mail to one herald, and he sent it to one of those e-mail lists you
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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                  On Jan 2, 2008 9:17 PM, Signora Beatrice <signorabeatrice@...> wrote:

                  > [reluctant snippage of some very amusing content]



                  > Contrary to (occasionlly pouplar) belief, Heralds are not ogres, and we
                  > really do WANT to help you.
                  >
                  Pray tell who is spreading this nasty rumor?!!! I sent but one teensey
                  weensie little e-mail to one herald, and he sent it to one of those e-mail
                  lists you mentioned, and then forwarded close to 10 replies to me -- some
                  incredibly volumous -- within half a day. I've never seen such helpful
                  people!

                  *e-hugs random herald*

                  --Carrie


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Signora Beatrice
                  ... Carrie, thank you for your support, and I m glad you had such a positive experience with the Heralds. Unfortunately, there are a few things that can happen
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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                    --- Carrie McGinnis <furdreams@...> wrote:

                    > On Jan 2, 2008 9:17 PM, Signora Beatrice <signorabeatrice@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > [reluctant snippage of some very amusing content]
                    >
                    > > Contrary to (occasionlly pouplar) belief, Heralds are not ogres, and
                    > > we really do WANT to help you.
                    > >
                    > Pray tell who is spreading this nasty rumor?!!! I sent but one teensey
                    > weensie little e-mail to one herald, and he sent it to one of those
                    > e-mail lists you mentioned, and then forwarded close to 10 replies to
                    > me -- some incredibly volumous -- within half a day. I've never seen
                    > such helpful people!

                    Carrie, thank you for your support, and I'm glad you had such a positive
                    experience with the Heralds.

                    Unfortunately, there are a few things that can happen that lead to people
                    having a negative impression of heralds:

                    1) Running into a particularly crotchety herald (I've met them, they do
                    exist, but they're becoming more rare)

                    2) Getting your heart set on something that WILL NOT pass, and taking it
                    personally when the heralds tell you so (repeatedly).

                    3) Being told by a well meaning person one answer, and finding out later
                    from a herald that the answer you were given is wrong (see #2 above).

                    Heraldic registration in the SCA, thanks to the internet, is becoming more
                    and more a transparent process, which leads to more and better information
                    out there, and easy ways to debunk myths and misinformation before it
                    spreads too far. (I imagine this is true for any area of SCA research,
                    but with most areas, you don't have the Laurel Sovereign making judgement
                    on everyone's submissions.) The internet has also helped even the most
                    remote branches get access to the best Heralds in the world, making
                    research and shared knowledge easier (again, true for any discipline).

                    As I said before, Heralds are happy to help, anxious to help, and would be
                    overjoyed to be asked to help BEFORE you get your heart set on something,
                    so we can steer you towards more period sources and designs.

                    I would like to think that the overall impression that non-heralds have of
                    heralds is positive, and is becoming more positive over time. The College
                    of Arms is working for that, as is each Kingdom College of Heralds. I'm
                    glad to see, Carrie, that it is positive for you.

                    *sighs* Now if we could just take chips off shoulders and erase bad
                    memories of heralds-past....




                    In Service,
                    Signora Beatrice Domenici della Campana, AoA
                    Tree-Girt-Sea, Midlands, Middle Kingdom


                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
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