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Re: [SCA Newcomers] coat of arms

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  • Jibra'il 'Attar.
    ... [herald mode ON] The one thing to forewarn about those get your family coat of arms sites is that they don t give you the full story. An award of arms
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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      Wayne:
      > I'm a complete newbie at this, so excuse a naive question. My wife just
      > received a copy of her coat of arms from a heraldry site. She was a bit
      > sceptical though saying, "I come from a long line of peasants and
      > farmers. Why would my family need a coat of arms?" I don't have an
      > answer. Did even relatively rare names or names of people in lower
      > economic statuses have coat of arms. That would include my name too. I
      > think I too come from a long line of peasants.


      [herald mode ON]

      The one thing to forewarn about those "get your family coat of arms"
      sites is that they don't give you the full story. An award of arms
      (and the resulting coat of arms) is always granted to an
      individual...not a family line. Now, with that said, there ARE
      inherited arms, but that follows the traditional route of being passed
      to the eldest son.

      [herald mode OFF]

      [geneologist mode ON]

      As to the origin of an award of arms in a family of peasants and
      farmers...well, I just can't speak to that. That's certainly a bit of
      history that would be fun to uncover!

      [geneologist mode OFF]]

      [herald mode ON (again)]

      As for that coat of arms your wife procured, please note that she will
      not be able to register it with the SCA College of Heralds...as that
      would be a presumptuous claim to real life armory. Now, there are ways
      of using elements from said coat of arms and creating something
      uniquely hers for use in the SCA though. I've helped a few clients
      with such an endeavor in the past.

      [herald mode OFF (finally)]

      Jibra'il.
    • Labhaoise O'Beachain
      Just because there is a coat of arms for your name doesn t mean that you are in any way qualified to it. These companies research by looking for a name
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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        Just because there is a coat of arms for "your" name doesn't mean
        that you are in any way qualified to it.

        These companies 'research" by looking for a name match, nothing
        more... Some names have multiple coats of arms from the same modern
        country or from different modern countries.

        Most of us don't have a patrilineal line of decent for many
        generations, and our surname only goes back a short way. People who
        were protected by a "King" would often take that name.

        Why do you think your name is rare? Are you the only ones you know,
        have they died out in the area you come from? Many names that are
        rare here and now, were common somewhere and sometime.

        labhaoise

        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "wayne_schlapkohl" <wayne.s@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Folks,
        >
        > I'm a complete newbie at this, so excuse a naive question. My wife
        just
        > received a copy of her coat of arms from a heraldry site. She was a
        bit
        > sceptical though saying, "I come from a long line of peasants and
        > farmers. Why would my family need a coat of arms?" I don't have an
        > answer. Did even relatively rare names or names of people in lower
        > economic statuses have coat of arms. That would include my name
        too. I
        > think I too come from a long line of peasants.
        >
        > Thanks in advance,
        >
        > Wayne
        >
      • Carrie McGinnis
        Wayne-- I m also an SCA Newbie, but my Aunt does geneology and has for as long as I can remember. Listen to the man who kept turning his internal herald and/or
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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          Wayne--

          I'm also an SCA Newbie, but my Aunt does geneology and has for as long as I
          can remember. Listen to the man who kept turning his internal herald and/or
          geneologist on and off. If you really want to know your family's coat of
          arms, you'll have to trace your line backwards and find out what happened.
          As a personal example of this, I can share with you that there are a lot of
          McGinnis's and none of us spells it the same, related or not, and more to
          the point, most of us are not relatives, not even distant. And, for that
          matter, if you understand how naming goes, nobody ever made a living at beer
          at any point in my pedigree. ;-)

          Now, as the girlfriend of a herald, I can assure you that the advise you've
          already received is correct -- no matter how well researched, how many
          volumes of data, how many times someone had to Belfast or Northern Ireland
          in spite of recent civil unrest to confirm the accuracy of the claim, or how
          convincing you are on these points, you cannot register your family coat of
          arms as your own. The best course of action is to find a nice herald who
          will consent to be your friend and make one just for you. Then it can be
          truly your own, and you can elevate yourself in stature from a family of
          pesants to a newly created noble in the SCA. :D I promise you, it's great
          fun!

          --Carrie

          On Jan 2, 2008 3:04 PM, wayne_schlapkohl <wayne.s@...> wrote:

          > Hi Folks,
          >
          > I'm a complete newbie at this, so excuse a naive question. My wife just
          > received a copy of her coat of arms from a heraldry site. She was a bit
          > sceptical though saying, "I come from a long line of peasants and
          > farmers. Why would my family need a coat of arms?" <interesting post
          > snipped short for the sake of expediency>


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Signora Beatrice
          Greetings from Beatrice. ... [MUCH SNIPPAGE] ... *with tongue FIRMLY in cheek* And finding heralds is SOOO difficult. There are NONE of us around, and none
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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            Greetings from Beatrice.

            --- Carrie McGinnis <furdreams@...> wrote:
            [MUCH SNIPPAGE]
            > The best course of action is to find a nice herald who
            > will consent to be your friend and make one just for you. Then it can be
            > truly your own, and you can elevate yourself in stature from a family of
            > pesants to a newly created noble in the SCA. :D I promise you, it's
            > great
            > fun!

            *with tongue FIRMLY in cheek*

            And finding heralds is SOOO difficult. There are NONE of us around, and
            none online, and no mailing lists or websites or anything USEFUL to get in
            touch with them.

            *takes tongue out of cheek*

            If you're interested in going this route (which I recommend highly), look
            on your Kingdom website and look at the Herald for your Kingdom. Then
            email them. Ask them for a reference to someone in your area to consult
            with, or for a consulting table at an upcoming event. Heralds are happy
            to help, and ESPECIALLY happy to help BEFORE you get your heart set on
            something that won't work.

            Contrary to (occasionlly pouplar) belief, Heralds are not ogres, and we
            really do WANT to help you.


            In Service,
            Signora Beatrice Domenici della Campana, AoA
            Tree-Girt-Sea, Midlands, Middle Kingdom


            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... Both you and your wife should check out this FAQ entry from the www.heraldica.org website: http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/mfaq This will probably explain
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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              Quoth "wayne_schlapkohl":
              > I'm a complete newbie at this, so excuse a naive question. My wife just
              > received a copy of her coat of arms from a heraldry site. She was a bit
              > sceptical though saying, "I come from a long line of peasants and
              > farmers. Why would my family need a coat of arms?" I don't have an
              > answer. Did even relatively rare names or names of people in lower
              > economic statuses have coat of arms. That would include my name too. I
              > think I too come from a long line of peasants.

              Both you and your wife should check out this FAQ entry from the
              www.heraldica.org website:

              http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/mfaq

              This will probably explain some of the (prefectly correct!) skepticism
              that she had. Arms belonged to a person, not a family or a surname.

              -Aryanhwy



              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            • wayne_schlapkohl
              Thanks a ton for those responses. Labhaoise s comment has me curious now! Labhaoise commented Just because there is a coat of arms for your name doesn t
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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                Thanks a ton for those responses.

                Labhaoise's comment has me curious now!

                Labhaoise commented "Just because there is a coat of arms for "your"
                name doesn't mean that you are in any way qualified to it. ...Why do
                you think your name is rare? Are you the only ones you know, have
                they died out in the area you come from? Many names that are rare
                here and now, were common somewhere and sometime."


                You are right, I know very few Schlapkohl(s) and I think I read once
                there are only 90 in North America. But in Germany there may be many
                more.

                I am probably barking up a dead end here, and I've read the latter
                comments that say if I am interested in a coat of arms I should speak
                to a herald to help me design one of mine own. OK, I'm happy to do
                that but, but, well I am curious if I come from the line of
                Schlapkohls that once had the coat of arms I've seen (yes in malls
                and heraldry web sites). Is there a way of finding out what
                individual had been granted a coat of arms or is that just
                impossible. Schlapkohl is an old name (the oldest reference I've seen
                is the 1380s so were talking about some 700 years of relatives here),
                so I would (maybe with some grumbling:) accept it if you folks
                said "no, it's just impossible to do that kind of geneology."

                Thanks again,

                Wayne
              • Sara L Uckelman
                ... It s possible, but sometimes difficult. If the coat of arms was either granted by the English College of Arms, or is something that was ratified by them,
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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                  Quoth "wayne_schlapkohl":
                  > and heraldry web sites). Is there a way of finding out what
                  > individual had been granted a coat of arms or is that just
                  > impossible.

                  It's possible, but sometimes difficult.

                  If the coat of arms was either granted by the English College
                  of Arms, or is something that was ratified by them, then it's
                  probably possible to find information in their records
                  (though those records are in general restricted in access).

                  Another way to find out whether someone with a particular
                  surname had a coat of arms would be to look through medieval
                  rolls of arms or armorials; these are page of arms, usually
                  in full achievement, listed with the bearer's name. The
                  Medieval Heraldry Archive, http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/,
                  has links to a number of armorials available in electronic
                  format. As libraries digitize their old books and manuscripts,
                  more of these armorials are becoming easily accessible.

                  -Aryanhwy


                  --
                  vita sine literis mors est
                  http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                • Carrie McGinnis
                  ... Pray tell who is spreading this nasty rumor?!!! I sent but one teensey weensie little e-mail to one herald, and he sent it to one of those e-mail lists you
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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                    On Jan 2, 2008 9:17 PM, Signora Beatrice <signorabeatrice@...> wrote:

                    > [reluctant snippage of some very amusing content]



                    > Contrary to (occasionlly pouplar) belief, Heralds are not ogres, and we
                    > really do WANT to help you.
                    >
                    Pray tell who is spreading this nasty rumor?!!! I sent but one teensey
                    weensie little e-mail to one herald, and he sent it to one of those e-mail
                    lists you mentioned, and then forwarded close to 10 replies to me -- some
                    incredibly volumous -- within half a day. I've never seen such helpful
                    people!

                    *e-hugs random herald*

                    --Carrie


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Signora Beatrice
                    ... Carrie, thank you for your support, and I m glad you had such a positive experience with the Heralds. Unfortunately, there are a few things that can happen
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 3, 2008
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                      --- Carrie McGinnis <furdreams@...> wrote:

                      > On Jan 2, 2008 9:17 PM, Signora Beatrice <signorabeatrice@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > [reluctant snippage of some very amusing content]
                      >
                      > > Contrary to (occasionlly pouplar) belief, Heralds are not ogres, and
                      > > we really do WANT to help you.
                      > >
                      > Pray tell who is spreading this nasty rumor?!!! I sent but one teensey
                      > weensie little e-mail to one herald, and he sent it to one of those
                      > e-mail lists you mentioned, and then forwarded close to 10 replies to
                      > me -- some incredibly volumous -- within half a day. I've never seen
                      > such helpful people!

                      Carrie, thank you for your support, and I'm glad you had such a positive
                      experience with the Heralds.

                      Unfortunately, there are a few things that can happen that lead to people
                      having a negative impression of heralds:

                      1) Running into a particularly crotchety herald (I've met them, they do
                      exist, but they're becoming more rare)

                      2) Getting your heart set on something that WILL NOT pass, and taking it
                      personally when the heralds tell you so (repeatedly).

                      3) Being told by a well meaning person one answer, and finding out later
                      from a herald that the answer you were given is wrong (see #2 above).

                      Heraldic registration in the SCA, thanks to the internet, is becoming more
                      and more a transparent process, which leads to more and better information
                      out there, and easy ways to debunk myths and misinformation before it
                      spreads too far. (I imagine this is true for any area of SCA research,
                      but with most areas, you don't have the Laurel Sovereign making judgement
                      on everyone's submissions.) The internet has also helped even the most
                      remote branches get access to the best Heralds in the world, making
                      research and shared knowledge easier (again, true for any discipline).

                      As I said before, Heralds are happy to help, anxious to help, and would be
                      overjoyed to be asked to help BEFORE you get your heart set on something,
                      so we can steer you towards more period sources and designs.

                      I would like to think that the overall impression that non-heralds have of
                      heralds is positive, and is becoming more positive over time. The College
                      of Arms is working for that, as is each Kingdom College of Heralds. I'm
                      glad to see, Carrie, that it is positive for you.

                      *sighs* Now if we could just take chips off shoulders and erase bad
                      memories of heralds-past....




                      In Service,
                      Signora Beatrice Domenici della Campana, AoA
                      Tree-Girt-Sea, Midlands, Middle Kingdom


                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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