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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Arts & Sciences SCA Yahoo Groups for further info

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  • Dianne & Greg Stucki
    ... That s how we ALL do it, Patrick. Very few people start out even CLOSE to authentic. I camped in nylon tents for years. I bartered for my pavilion, and
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 31, 2007
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      At 10:04 PM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
      >I agree. I admire authenticity but it is hard to do
      >on a budget I am building my outfit little by little.
      >Patrick


      That's how we ALL do it, Patrick. Very few people start out even
      CLOSE to authentic.

      I camped in nylon tents for years. I bartered for my pavilion, and
      it's a small one. (10.5 diameter, but plenty big enough for one
      person.) I still have a nylon chair, and it's only over the past two
      years that I've moved on to all linen and wool garb. You shoulda seen
      what I started with....

      It's a process. And as you progress, you discover that, without fail,
      the way it was done to begin with is more practical and more
      comfortable. My pavilion is infinitely more comfortable than the
      nylon tent, and there's just no comparison between linen or wool
      fabrics, and cotton or synthetics. It's easier to manipulate fabrics
      with your hands than a sewing machine. (Doesn't stop me from using my
      machine though!)

      Laurensa
    • Sandra
      Correct me if I wrong but isn t close if not near to impossible to create something 100% authenitic? As far as art/sci is concerned isn t there also a limit on
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 1, 2008
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        Correct me if I wrong but isn't close if not near to impossible to
        create something 100% authenitic? As far as art/sci is concerned
        isn't there also a limit on how far out you can begin a project? I
        think without the help of others it is practicily impossible for
        oneself to do so. Well that is along the lines of say garb.. because
        you could do somthing as simple as soap. I think when i approach
        authencity I figure if someone is goign to look at my garb and pick
        on me because I used a sewing machine or didn't use period shears
        (like you can really tell??) I will just "smile and nod". I love the
        stars wars and LOTR costumes and did a lot of researchign online (of
        course I won't be strolling around an SCA events liek that...) and
        was amazed when I was given the rare glance of what the inside of the
        real movie garments looked like! Complete opposite of what the
        outside looked like... it's hard to describe but it's amazing how
        many corners hollywood cuts and their costumes are fabolous. I feel
        as long as someone knows how they should be doing things medieval
        style but for budget reason cannot that should be good. Please keep
        this email for reference in the event someday I become a laurel and
        forget these things! :)

        Hope everyone is having a great 2008!

        ~Sandra
        (Insipient) Shire of Trystelle Tre
        Kingdom of Trimaris
        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dianne & Greg Stucki
        <goofy4@...> wrote:
        >
        > At 10:04 PM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
        > >I agree. I admire authenticity but it is hard to do
        > >on a budget I am building my outfit little by little.
        > >Patrick
        >
        >
        > That's how we ALL do it, Patrick. Very few people start out even
        > CLOSE to authentic.
        >
        > I camped in nylon tents for years. I bartered for my pavilion, and
        > it's a small one. (10.5 diameter, but plenty big enough for one
        > person.) I still have a nylon chair, and it's only over the past
        two
        > years that I've moved on to all linen and wool garb. You shoulda
        seen
        > what I started with....
        >
        > It's a process. And as you progress, you discover that, without
        fail,
        > the way it was done to begin with is more practical and more
        > comfortable. My pavilion is infinitely more comfortable than the
        > nylon tent, and there's just no comparison between linen or wool
        > fabrics, and cotton or synthetics. It's easier to manipulate
        fabrics
        > with your hands than a sewing machine. (Doesn't stop me from using
        my
        > machine though!)
        >
        > Laurensa
        >
      • bronwynmgn@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/31/2007 3:39:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, goofy4@comcast.net writes:
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 1, 2008
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          In a message dated 12/31/2007 3:39:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          goofy4@... writes:

          <<That's how we ALL do it, Patrick. Very few people start out even
          CLOSE to authentic.>>

          Exactly. I started out in a 4-foot high, 7-foot diameter nylon dome tent,
          wearing leather sandals or black fringed moccasin boots with polycotton wench
          garb. On the way to where I am now, I have moved through several variations
          on nylon cabin tents, and an old canvas Army tent before getting to a
          pavilion, Thermarest mattress on the ground covered with a few sheepskins to an
          old trundle bed frame and now to a take-down double size four poster with
          curtains and canopy slat bed. My garb has moved from what I described above to
          quite a few of my own invented patterns, most of which looked cool but bore no
          resemblance to anything period, to various attempts of varying quality of
          doing something that looked closer to right, to where I am now, using linen and
          wool and trying to at least get the silhouette right even if I'm not sure of
          the construction. And even at this level there are places to move on
          further; a friend of mine who is at a similar level to me (and who started out as a
          modern tribal belly dancer) recently got some good pictures of clothes taken
          from the tomb of a Spanish bishop that have given her a new way of doing
          neckline facings and seams which are making her construction a whole lot closer
          to period.

          Everybody does a little at a time, as they can afford it or have the time to
          learn it. It's taken me nearly 20 years to get to where I am now. Those of
          us who are a bit ahead on the road try to offer advice that cuts down on the
          learning curve we went through and try to help newcomers who are interested
          in authenticity get further along without having to reinvent the wheel, so
          maybe they can get to where we are now (if they want to) in less time.


          Brangwayna Morgan
          Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
          Lancaster, PA



          **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
          In a message dated 1/1/2008 9:00:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sandra.rangel16@yahoo.com writes:
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 1, 2008
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            In a message dated 1/1/2008 9:00:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            sandra.rangel16@... writes:

            <<Correct me if I wrong but isn't close if not near to impossible to
            create something 100% authenitic?>>

            In many cases, yes, because it's not always even possible, much less
            financially or otherwise plausible, for us to obtain the exact equivalent of the raw
            material that would have been used in period. But the fact that I cannot
            get wool from the same kind of sheep, raised in the same environment and on the
            same feed as Brangwayna would have done, shouldn't be taken as a reason not
            to try to do the best I can to replicate how she would have made the same
            garment in terms of cut, construction, and decoration. Getting those three
            factors right working with modern machine-processed store-bought wool is still
            going to get me a lot closer to the authentic product than throwing something
            together out of synthetics that looks cool.

            << As far as art/sci is concerned isn't there also a limit on how far out
            you can begin a project?>>

            I have no idea on this, as I have never used an art/sci competition as a
            reason to make something authentic. I neither enter nor judge art/sci, because
            I think that contests of this sort are a big detriment to the SCA, and for
            many an inspiration to fear trying to do something authentically. I think it's
            a lot harder to get up the nerve to make something that you know you are
            going to be judged on than it is to just make something to use. I have heard
            others say that they find art/sci a good way to get feedback and new ideas that
            help them learn to do things authentically, and I am pleased for them, but
            the few I've ever entered never worked that way for me. I either got
            pointless comments such as "I like it" or questions that would have been answered had
            the person bothered to read my documentation before writing the question on
            the comment sheet.

            << I think without the help of others it is practicily impossible for
            oneself to do so. Well that is along the lines of say garb.. >>

            And so it would have been in period, too. It would have been highly
            unlikely that a single woman in period would have raised her own sheep and flax,
            processed the raw materials as well as making all the tools to do so, made her
            own shears and needles, built her own loom, etc to make her clothes. That
            would have required extensive skills in animal husbandry, agriculture, metal
            work, carpentry, and a few other fields. She more likely would have purchased
            many of the tools, or relied on another craftsman to make them in return for
            some sort of barter, or even purchased woven cloth or even pre-made clothing.

            <<because you could do somthing as simple as soap.>>

            Is soap making really all that simple in the end? Making the lye, preparing
            the oil, all the tools to do so and the pot to cook it in, molds for it -
            again, I think it's likely that a soapmaker wouldn't have made all of these
            things themselves prior to actually making the soap.

            << I think when i approach
            authencity I figure if someone is goign to look at my garb and pick
            on me because I used a sewing machine or didn't use period shears
            (like you can really tell??) I will just "smile and nod".>>

            And so you should, if the person is just being rude and cutting you down.
            I've done the "smile and nod" routine myself more than once.


            Brangwayna Morgan
            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
            Lancaster, PA



            **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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          • David Roland
            As far as art/sci is concerned isn t there also a limit on how far out you can begin a project? I am going to assume that you mean for entry into a
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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              "As far as art/sci is concerned isn't there also a limit on how far
              out you can begin a project?"

              I am going to assume that you mean for entry into a competition here
              as you can start a project and take as long as you like, or have, for
              your own purposes. The answer is a matter of interkingdom
              anthropology. Each Kingdom has its own rules, each A&S competition
              may as well. In the Middle Kingdom, for regional A&S (if you place at
              least second you are elligible to go on to Kingdom) competitions there
              are at the moment NO restrictions for elligability on how long ago you
              STARTED the project. However, there ARE restrictions for elligibility
              on how long ago you COMPLETED the A&S project. Check your
              local/kingdom rules. Contact your Minister of Arts and Sciences (MoAS)
              or check online to see what your local/kingdom rules are for this.

              "Correct me if I wrong but isn't close if not near to impossible to
              create something 100% authenitic?"

              In short, yes. 100% authenticity is utterly impossible. The air we
              breath is different today than the air they breathed. They can have
              and does affect chemical changes on the plants and animals, microbes
              etc. Also the microbes now may not be the microbes then as well.
              Okay so why do I start with chemistry and microbes? I make ink from
              period recipes.

              In a vast majority of recipes rain water is called for to be used
              becuase it is reliably the purest water available. Umm, not today due
              to the atmosphere an what we put into it in mass quantities. I use
              steam distilled water, which frankly is good but we can't say
              definitively if its functionally equivelant to rain water. Also some
              recipes for ink find that soaking the oak galls in rain water and
              allowing mold to grow on them creates a much blacker a beautiful ink.
              Umm, period mold (microbes) anyone?

              Oak galls themselves are a way for the oak tree to defend itself
              against pests and such. Remember how acid raid was killing of forests
              until we started to clean up our air? It affects the internal
              chemistry of the tree as well. The ingredient in oak galls that makes
              the ink work by the way is tannic acid, (not tannins as in tea but
              tannic acid), and the balance of tannic acid in an oak gall DOES
              change the recipe considerably and the quality of ink I assure you.
              Did they know that in period? Well not like we do today thats for
              sure. Yes, they knew some oak galls were better than others and other
              things would work to make ink but the point is this: It is utterly
              impossible for me to make 100% authenticly period ink because of these
              very basic issues.

              Can I make very very period ink? Sure. I'm gonna put in a wild guess
              of 95% authentic. But I'll never reach 100%.

              Just to show a bit further in period in europe they often wrote on
              vellum/parchment or animal skins which were soaked in running water.
              To temper the acid they sometimes used crushed eggshells, easy to get
              ahold of certainly today but from a period egg? (On a side note I do
              know there is a lord who raises period breeds of chickens but I don't
              know if its on period feeds and that would affect the makeup of the
              eggs).

              And all of that is just for ink.

              Period breeds of plants/animals for making your clothing? Sure wool
              is a period material but is it from a period breed of sheep that got
              rained on with the same rain and fed the period breed of food they
              were fed? That after all would be 100% authenticity.

              Does it sound ridiculous to go to this length? It does to me. But
              that is what 100% authenticity would require in my mind.

              I'm all for the 10 foot, 5 foot, 6 inches types of rules. If it looks
              good at XYZ distances you've done pretty darn good and should be
              congratulated. If you look like you're trying but just aren't making
              a good go of it, courtesy and chivalry (ideals upheld in our SCA)
              demands polite compliments and polite and useful offers of help NOT
              tearing someone down and telling them how much they suck.

              I have never torn into someone for using a cartridge pen or marker for
              doing calligraphy. I promise you it is at least as abhorent as using
              elastic as rayon in your garb. I have however offered to show someone
              how to use a dip pen or quill and teach classes on the basics of
              calligraphy. If they're not interested I complement on learning
              calligraphy and am happy they're trying. If its something they like
              doing they'll get to more period techiniques eventually. And besides
              that, and most importantly:

              Someone's lack of authentic tools and materials is not an attack on me
              so I don't need to respond to it as if it were. Their lack of
              authentic tools and materials in not an attack on the SCA or what we
              are trying to do either and so I don't need to respond to it as if it
              were. We are all teachers and/or learners in the SCA. As an
              educational group its about the learning, the path, not the product or
              destination. As a friend of mine put it once, "If you kill 'em they
              don't learn nuthin'" Going after someone for their lack of
              authenticity, especially anyone new, KILLS THEIR INTEREST.

              Yes, garb nazis and authenticity police abound and are generally found
              to be loathed everywhere. They can be anyone at any level. Here is
              what most seem to fail to understand: Everyone will find what they
              want to be authentic about and eventually other things they have/do
              will become more and more authentic the longer they are in. It just
              happens.

              I have told my newcomers and I recommend this to everyone, if someone
              starts in on your lack of authenticity on any given thing, politely
              thank them for their interest and move on. If they continue, politely
              express your surprise at their interest and ask what them how they are
              willing to help fix the problem they are seeing since it is so
              important to them. IE come to their house to learn, gift you with non-
              offensive item(s) etc. (Its they SCA, they may indeed be willing to
              help and just don't have the social skills that we'd like them to have
              and it may indeed be a boon for you.) If they refuse or don't offer
              anyway of helping, them politely say, "Oh, okay." and walk away.
              Failing that if they continue, simply and politely ask them to leave
              you alone. Failing that grab a white belt/baldric (Knight), Pelican
              or Laurel and have them intervene. They're being incredibly rude and
              need to have a talk with a peer about it.

              I have also told my newcomers to come to me at ANY event I am at that
              they are at and I will deal with the problem. In general the average
              scadian is a helpful person. Some see telling others how unauthentic
              they are to be helping them to become more authentic. If they're
              doing it to the level of being rude they're being jerks not helpful.
              And no it is NOT chivalrous to let such folks continue to be jerks to
              you or others. However, you don't get to be a jerk back. Be nice.

              Ian the Green, AoA, Calligrapher Scribe, Amature Ink Maker
              Chatelain - Shire of Grey Gargoyles
              Region of the Midlands
              Middle Kingdom
            • David Roland
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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                << As far as art/sci is concerned isn't there also a limit on how
                far out you can begin a project?>>

                "I have no idea on this, as I have never used an art/sci competition
                as a reason to make something authentic. I neither enter nor judge
                art/sci, because I think that contests of this sort are a big
                detriment to the SCA, and for many an inspiration to fear trying to
                do something authentically."

                > Brangwayna Morgan
                > Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                > Lancaster, PA

                I respectfully disagree with this sentiment though I am fully aware
                of that occuring for some people. This is one of those things that
                I think celebrates the diversity of people in the SCA. For some
                people it inspires fear of spitfire criticism let alone regular
                criticism.

                For myself, I LOVE A&S competions! And I know others who do as
                well. At the very least its an exhibition for everyone to come and
                see what is being done and to get some inspiration from it. I've
                seen woodworkers get inspiration from clothing makers, fiberarts
                folks get inspiration from calligraphy and many other such unlikely
                matches.

                On the personal level it gives me something to strive for and to aim
                for. Do I -need- that? No, but I sure do like to have it. So to
                me A&S competitions are a good thing. I stress this though and I
                stress it a lot, only enter if -you- want to enter them. If you
                don't then by all means don't. I do however encourage anyone who
                has any interests whatsoever in doing arts and sciences to attend
                A&S competitions and see what is there! I've never not learned
                something new nor walked away thinking there was nothing of interest.

                So, I suppose I should say that I disagree that A&S competitions are
                bad but agree that they can and do inspire fear in some folks. But
                for others it also inspires them. So do what you want when it comes
                to A&S competitions.

                On my first competition entry, (it went to kingdom level having
                placed second in regional), one of my judges tried to hunt me down
                at Pennsic 35 coming to my camp to give me some pointers and help.
                Alas I was not there to have seen him not knowing he was coming.
                He's a great person and I've exchanged a couple of very informative
                e-mails with him. So the judges aren't all bad. Have I heard
                horror stories? Yes, both from the judges who told of contestants
                who were just mean to them and from contestants who had mean
                judges. As in most such instances, I blame the individual who was
                mean not the activity they were participating in.

                Ian the Green, AoA
              • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                In a message dated 1/2/2008 1:36:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mystborne@yahoo.com writes:
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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                  In a message dated 1/2/2008 1:36:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  mystborne@... writes:

                  <<So, I suppose I should say that I disagree that A&S competitions are
                  bad but agree that they can and do inspire fear in some folks. But
                  for others it also inspires them. So do what you want when it comes
                  to A&S competitions.>>

                  Ian, I agree that folks should check out A&S competitions if they are so
                  inclined. My reason for noting that I don't like or participate in them is
                  partly just to express what may be a minority view, but mostly because there are
                  some myths that many people believe about competitions.

                  The first myth is that the only reason to try to do something authentically
                  is to win in competitions. Since I never enter them, I must have another
                  reason. My reason is that it is a fun challenge to learn how to do something
                  more authentically, and that I often find out that a more authentic
                  method/result is as easy or easier, as effective or more effective, etc, than the modern
                  version.

                  The second myth is that one must participate in competitions to win arts
                  awards at a kingdom or Society level. I am both a Companion of the Order of the
                  Manche, the East Kingdom arts award, and a member of the Order of the
                  Laurel, the Society level award, despite not participating in competitions. (I was
                  also never an apprentice.) So many newcomers get told they must enter
                  competitions if they want recognition in the arts; I'm a living example that it
                  doesn't have to be that way.

                  My reason for disliking arts competitions in the SCA context specifically is
                  firstly that I think there is too much emphasis on competition throughout
                  everyday society, and that no one seems to be able to get an sense of
                  achievement about having accomplished something unless they can win an award for it.
                  I'd like to think of the SCA as a place where you can get a sense of
                  achievement because you've learned to do something new that not many people know.

                  The second, even more closely SCA-oriented, is that these competitions are
                  actually one of the LEAST authentic things you can do at an event. People in
                  period didn't take their wares to modern county-fair style contests to be
                  judged, nor did craftmasters spend the majority of their time judging the works
                  of random other people. Yet the focus of activity at events of people who
                  do arts competitions seems to be primarily in either entering the competition
                  and spending time thinking about it, or sitting with their work, or in
                  judging other people's work, while not actually doing anything during the event
                  that their persona would have done in period. I like to go to events to do
                  things that Brangwayna would have done, so I take my projects and work on them
                  (and teach people about what I'm doing and how to do it), play period games,
                  dance, shoot archery, etc, none of which I would be able to do if I spent all
                  day in an arts competition.

                  Brangwayna Morgan
                  Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                  Lancaster, PA




                  **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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                • Ruth
                  I have two A&S/period related questions on two different topics, Calligraphy and Sewing. First; my boyfriend just made me a gorgeous wooden box to hold the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 3, 2008
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                    I have two A&S/period related questions on two different topics,
                    Calligraphy and Sewing.

                    First; my boyfriend just made me a gorgeous wooden box to hold the
                    cacophony of calligraphy supplies I have (from felt pens, to dip pens,
                    paper, gold pain, gold leaf.. you name it I probably have it). Highly
                    encouraging me to continue exploring period calligraphy (most of my
                    time has been spent copying Celtic knot work from the book of Kells
                    and other sources).

                    I think period ink is a bit too far for me to jump into directly,
                    however I'm sure that my dip pens are extremely modern versions of
                    such. I would be really interested in period types of pens. Are these
                    things you make yourself? Is there somewhere to buy them? Or since we
                    use ballpoint pens now, are the dip pens still a somewhat accurate
                    rendition of what was used.

                    Second; I have found it nearly impossible (in my local sewing shops)
                    to find anything but polyester thread. There is one, small sewing
                    shop, on the other side of town that sells 100% cotton thread, but
                    linen or wool thread is nowhere to be found. So far all of my (outer)
                    garb is linen, while under-garb is cotton, (with the exception of some
                    poorly advised 'wench outfits' I made first, which while cute and
                    functional, I will retire to loaner garb or pirate night at the local
                    bar).

                    Is there a website where one can order thread that is linen or wool.
                    Or even cotton... (the store I Found it, it was very spendy).

                    Thanks guys, I am really appreciating this authenticity discussion.

                    Rose Atherton
                    An Tir
                    Adiantum
                    (A newcomer who has never been harassed for using inauthentic garb)

                    PS. My personae tend from between Mid 14th Century to 16th Century
                    England, depending on which of my garb I feel like wearing. (Some day
                    I will either narrow it down, or create two distinct personas. Some day)
                  • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                    ... Well, the quill pen had long been standard by the 14th century and remained so through the 16th, so if you re looking for tools to suit your persona,
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 3, 2008
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                      Rose Atherton wrote:
                      > I would be really interested in period types of pens.

                      > My personae tend from between Mid 14th Century to 16th Century
                      > England. . .

                      Well, the quill pen had long been standard by the 14th century and
                      remained so through the 16th, so if you're looking for tools to suit
                      your persona, that's the obvious choice.

                      > Are these things you make yourself?

                      My understanding is that it takes a little time to learn how to cut a
                      proper pen, but once you've got the technique down it's a quick and
                      fairly easy process. There are instructions in most comprehensive
                      calligraphy books, as well as online <http://www.regia.org/quill2.htm>
                      <http://www.flick.com/~liralen/quills/quills.html>. Art supply stores
                      and educational outlets
                      <http://www.corpsrediscovery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?
                      Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PP808&Category_Code=cnp-projkits> sometimes
                      offer quills for the purpose. I'm sure you could obtain feathers from
                      a poultry farm, too. (Just remember that turkeys are North American
                      birds; if you want to be really authentic, go for the geese.)

                      > Is there somewhere to buy them?

                      There are many sources for prepared quill pens. They're popular items
                      for sale at museums
                      <http://www.libertybellmuseum.com/MuseumShop/quillpengoose.htm> and
                      living history exhibits
                      <http://www.williamsburgmarketplace.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/
                      ProductView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=12113&catgroupId=15921>
                      as well as at stationers' shops and art supply stores. Places that
                      carry ritual supplies for pagans will often stock a few, and I suspect
                      some of those that supply materials for Jewish ceremonies do, too.
                      Just be sure you get a proper quill pen, and not a reamed-out feather
                      with a brass nib fitted to it. And don't forget to keep a penknife on
                      hand, to sharpen the tip as needed.

                      > . . .are the dip pens still a somewhat accurate rendition of what was
                      > used.. . .

                      Metal nibs were rare, hand-crafted luxury items--more novelty items,
                      really--until the second quarter of the 19th century
                      <http://www.null-hypothesis.co.uk/article/110>
                      <http://www.artmuseums.harvard.edu/fogg/drawingglossary.html>. Using
                      one during the Renaissance was probably roughly analogous to using one
                      of those beautiful blown-glass pens they sell in Murano today.
                      Somebody, somewhere, has done it, but most folks, even those who write
                      a lot, haven't. And, of course, the few metal-nibbed pens that did
                      exist before 1600 weren't made of steel, as are modern nibs, so they
                      looked and functioned quite differently. If your goal is authenticity,
                      you should avoid modern calligraphy pens altogether.


                      Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                      Kingdom of Ansteorra
                      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                    • Patrick Callahan
                      I KREYZE PADREYK HEREBY ATTEST THAT I MENTALLY STABLE AND REASONABLY SANE. I TESTIFY TO THIS ONLY TO SAY THE FOLLOWING: I ONCE SAW A HOBBIT IN A BUTTON SHOP AT
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                        I KREYZE PADREYK HEREBY ATTEST THAT I MENTALLY STABLE
                        AND REASONABLY SANE.

                        I TESTIFY TO THIS ONLY TO SAY THE FOLLOWING:

                        I ONCE SAW A HOBBIT IN A BUTTON SHOP AT AN SCA EVENT.
                        MAYBE I AM A LITTLE LAX ON MY AUTHENTICITY STANDARD
                        AND I CERTAINLY WAS NOT HOLDING THIS HOBBIT TO THE
                        GARB STANDARD I SET FOR MYSELF BUT IT SEEMED TO ME NOT
                        SO INAPPROPRIATE AS LONG NOT EVERY WAS DOING IT. IT
                        WAS AFTER A FASHION AN ATTEMPT AT MEDIEVAL CLOTHING.
                        ALTHOUGH THE RESEARCH WAS MORE DRAMATICAL AND
                        THEATRICAL IN NATURE THAN BASE ON HARD HISTORICAL
                        FACTS.


                        Kreyze Padreyk
                      • julian wilson
                        Patrick Callahan wrote: I KREYZE PADREYK HEREBY ATTEST Snipped I ONCE SAW A HOBBIT - GOOD STUFF SNIPPED FOR THE SAKE OF BREVITY -
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                          Patrick Callahan <naspiritwalker@...> wrote:
                          I KREYZE PADREYK HEREBY ATTEST Snipped
                          I ONCE SAW A HOBBIT - GOOD STUFF SNIPPED FOR THE SAKE OF BREVITY - ALTHOUGH THE RESEARCH WAS MORE DRAMATICAL AND
                          THEATRICAL IN NATURE THAN BASE ON HARD HISTORICAL
                          FACTS.


                          .



                          Comment
                          Ah, but that hobbit was only following what I undertsand to be one of the SCA's very earliest traditions - when many of the Founding population of what became The Kingdom Of The West chose their personas from the "fantasy" and "sword & sorcery" stories being written by many of the early members; - many of whom are still "playing", these decades later, though some are gone before us - the immortal Marion Zimmer Bradley [neƩ Marion Breen, may God be good to her, - for example, who proposed the SCA name in 1967 IIRC], leaving a wonderful heritage behind for us to enjoy - and to thank her for on the Shining Fields, where we shall al meet again, in the Service of The Light.

                          This humble veteran soldier believes that such diversity is one of the great strengths of the Society.

                          In Service to the Light, and to Our dream,
                          Lord Matthew Baker.






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                        • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                          Hmmm. Very interesting - thanks for the information! I am tempted to beat myself against the cliffs of authenticity like an ocean wave crashing against the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 6, 2008
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                            Hmmm. Very interesting - thanks for the information! I am tempted to beat myself against the cliffs of authenticity like an ocean wave crashing against the rocks - in plain english - to try my skills against certain standards. But I am the Bionic Re=enactor! Ziddina

                            -------------- Original message --------------
                            From: Michele Bouchard <angeisdescent@...>
                            Ziddina asked: Does anyone know which Kingdom is the most intensely
                            dedicated to authenticity?

                            This is a curious question, although I admit my inter-Kingdom anthropology is terribly rusty.

                            I can only speak for two kingdoms so far (Caid and Ansteorra), since that's all Ive lived in, but as I recall my home Kingdom of Caid was very supportive of those seeking to further their persona research, and make that commitment to try for a more authentic persona. I remember the Pas de Arms tournament becoming very popular amoungst the fighters, which was a documentable form of combat 'practice.' (Ill say here and now I am not a combatant of any kind, so my terminology might be sorely lacking.) I also saw a resurgence of period-looking headgear, period footwear, and even period ornamentation.....suddenly Wal-Mart belts and chunky necklaces that were 'passable' were absent in favor of beautifully hand-crafted bronze-cast plaque belts and gorgeous 'initials' chains draping across men's shoulders. It seemed to happen overnight, but I know it was only after a renewed interest in research and artistic expression (and lots and lots of hard work!) I have not really
                            gotten involved with the local A&S community here in Ansteorra just yet.....it's a massive Kingdom compared to what Im used to! lol

                            Namaste,

                            Sunayna





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