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  • Sadira Aka Ziddina Ait Zumar
    Wow! I just searched Yahoo for Arts and Sciences SCA groups, and came up with 93 hits! Does anyone know which Kingdom is the most intensely dedicated to
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 30, 2007
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      Wow! I just searched Yahoo for "Arts and Sciences SCA" groups, and came
      up with 93 hits! Does anyone know which Kingdom is the most intensely
      dedicated to authenticity?? Personally, I liked the "NutandSquirrel"
      group's description - 'fraid I'm just not up to their level! Ziddina -
      who admires authenticity but is too chicken to join the authenticity
      mavens.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Patrick Callahan
      Ziddina - who admires authenticity but is too chicken to join the authenticity mavens. I agree. I admire authenticity but it is hard to do on a budget I am
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 30, 2007
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        Ziddina -
        who admires authenticity but is too chicken to join
        the authenticity
        mavens.

        I agree. I admire authenticity but it is hard to do
        on a budget I am building my outfit little by little.
        Patrick
      • julian wilson
        Patrick Callahan wrote: Ziddina - who admires authenticity but is too chicken to join the authenticity mavens. I agree. I admire
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 31, 2007
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          Patrick Callahan <naspiritwalker@...> wrote:
          Ziddina -
          who admires authenticity but is too chicken to join
          the authenticity mavens.

          I agree. I admire authenticity but it is hard to do on a budget I am building my outfit little by little.

          "True" authenticity is almost impossible to do at all, - unless one is seriously rich i.e. Bill Gates, or Donald Trump!
          Given that the entire medieval hand-work infrastructure no longer exists, to be able to obtain base-materials by medieval techniques, and with medieval tools, - this humble artisan tries to produce garb, equipment, and accessories that will at least pass the "3ft Rule", but using modern materials [as close to the originals as possible but off-the-shelf] - and modern tooling;
          He's working thusly in order to save time - since this humble hoary-headed veteran feels that he's living on "borrowed time" now, and there are a lot of projects in his "really like to make this" queue, before he's called to meet his Forebears on the Shining Fields to join the Host of Light for the Last Battle.

          Lord Matthew Baker,
          of Drachenwald.




          .





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michele Bouchard
          Ziddina asked: Does anyone know which Kingdom is the most intensely dedicated to authenticity? This is a curious question, although I admit my inter-Kingdom
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 31, 2007
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            Ziddina asked: Does anyone know which Kingdom is the most intensely
            dedicated to authenticity?

            This is a curious question, although I admit my inter-Kingdom anthropology is terribly rusty.

            I can only speak for two kingdoms so far (Caid and Ansteorra), since that's all Ive lived in, but as I recall my home Kingdom of Caid was very supportive of those seeking to further their persona research, and make that commitment to try for a more authentic persona. I remember the Pas de Arms tournament becoming very popular amoungst the fighters, which was a documentable form of combat 'practice.' (Ill say here and now I am not a combatant of any kind, so my terminology might be sorely lacking.) I also saw a resurgence of period-looking headgear, period footwear, and even period ornamentation.....suddenly Wal-Mart belts and chunky necklaces that were 'passable' were absent in favor of beautifully hand-crafted bronze-cast plaque belts and gorgeous 'initials' chains draping across men's shoulders. It seemed to happen overnight, but I know it was only after a renewed interest in research and artistic expression (and lots and lots of hard work!) I have not really
            gotten involved with the local A&S community here in Ansteorra just yet.....it's a massive Kingdom compared to what Im used to! lol

            Namaste,

            Sunayna






            ---------------------------------
            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jibra'il 'Attar.
            ... Much the same can be said about things here in Calontir. The artisans here are very much do it yourself (much to the chagrin of Pennsic merchants)...and
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 31, 2007
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              Sunayna:
              > I can only speak for two kingdoms so far (Caid and Ansteorra), since that's
              > all Ive lived in, but as I recall my home Kingdom of Caid was very
              > supportive of those seeking to further their persona research, and make that
              > commitment to try for a more authentic persona. I remember the Pas de Arms
              > tournament becoming very popular amoungst the fighters, which was a
              > documentable form of combat 'practice.' (Ill say here and now I am not a
              > combatant of any kind, so my terminology might be sorely lacking.) I also
              > saw a resurgence of period-looking headgear, period footwear, and even
              > period ornamentation.....suddenly Wal-Mart belts and chunky necklaces that
              > were 'passable' were absent in favor of beautifully hand-crafted bronze-cast
              > plaque belts and gorgeous 'initials' chains draping across men's shoulders.
              > It seemed to happen overnight, but I know it was only after a renewed
              > interest in research and artistic expression (and lots and lots of hard
              > work!)


              Much the same can be said about things here in Calontir. The artisans
              here are very much "do it yourself" (much to the chagrin of Pennsic
              merchants)...and tend to teach what they know/learn as they go. And of
              course, when someone learns something new...and teaches everyone else
              that new thing...it becomes a Big Thing (tm) for a while. We had that
              with period shoes a few years ago...and shoes are still a Big Thing
              (tm) around here.

              We've also had a spate of Crowns with strong interests in adding more
              period atmosphere to events and crafts and general appearance. The
              populace as a whole has seemed to embrace that idea and seems to
              continually strive to add that extra bit of period effect to
              everything they do as well.

              It's been an interesting shift in the last few years...where ever then
              people who are in the SCA just to have fun are looking more authentic.
              Talk about the best of both worlds right there!

              Jibra'il
              * who loves the authenticity factor, and wishes he had the A&S skills
              to actually succeed at that.
            • Dianne & Greg Stucki
              ... That s how we ALL do it, Patrick. Very few people start out even CLOSE to authentic. I camped in nylon tents for years. I bartered for my pavilion, and
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 31, 2007
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                At 10:04 PM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
                >I agree. I admire authenticity but it is hard to do
                >on a budget I am building my outfit little by little.
                >Patrick


                That's how we ALL do it, Patrick. Very few people start out even
                CLOSE to authentic.

                I camped in nylon tents for years. I bartered for my pavilion, and
                it's a small one. (10.5 diameter, but plenty big enough for one
                person.) I still have a nylon chair, and it's only over the past two
                years that I've moved on to all linen and wool garb. You shoulda seen
                what I started with....

                It's a process. And as you progress, you discover that, without fail,
                the way it was done to begin with is more practical and more
                comfortable. My pavilion is infinitely more comfortable than the
                nylon tent, and there's just no comparison between linen or wool
                fabrics, and cotton or synthetics. It's easier to manipulate fabrics
                with your hands than a sewing machine. (Doesn't stop me from using my
                machine though!)

                Laurensa
              • Sandra
                Correct me if I wrong but isn t close if not near to impossible to create something 100% authenitic? As far as art/sci is concerned isn t there also a limit on
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 1, 2008
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                  Correct me if I wrong but isn't close if not near to impossible to
                  create something 100% authenitic? As far as art/sci is concerned
                  isn't there also a limit on how far out you can begin a project? I
                  think without the help of others it is practicily impossible for
                  oneself to do so. Well that is along the lines of say garb.. because
                  you could do somthing as simple as soap. I think when i approach
                  authencity I figure if someone is goign to look at my garb and pick
                  on me because I used a sewing machine or didn't use period shears
                  (like you can really tell??) I will just "smile and nod". I love the
                  stars wars and LOTR costumes and did a lot of researchign online (of
                  course I won't be strolling around an SCA events liek that...) and
                  was amazed when I was given the rare glance of what the inside of the
                  real movie garments looked like! Complete opposite of what the
                  outside looked like... it's hard to describe but it's amazing how
                  many corners hollywood cuts and their costumes are fabolous. I feel
                  as long as someone knows how they should be doing things medieval
                  style but for budget reason cannot that should be good. Please keep
                  this email for reference in the event someday I become a laurel and
                  forget these things! :)

                  Hope everyone is having a great 2008!

                  ~Sandra
                  (Insipient) Shire of Trystelle Tre
                  Kingdom of Trimaris
                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Dianne & Greg Stucki
                  <goofy4@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > At 10:04 PM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
                  > >I agree. I admire authenticity but it is hard to do
                  > >on a budget I am building my outfit little by little.
                  > >Patrick
                  >
                  >
                  > That's how we ALL do it, Patrick. Very few people start out even
                  > CLOSE to authentic.
                  >
                  > I camped in nylon tents for years. I bartered for my pavilion, and
                  > it's a small one. (10.5 diameter, but plenty big enough for one
                  > person.) I still have a nylon chair, and it's only over the past
                  two
                  > years that I've moved on to all linen and wool garb. You shoulda
                  seen
                  > what I started with....
                  >
                  > It's a process. And as you progress, you discover that, without
                  fail,
                  > the way it was done to begin with is more practical and more
                  > comfortable. My pavilion is infinitely more comfortable than the
                  > nylon tent, and there's just no comparison between linen or wool
                  > fabrics, and cotton or synthetics. It's easier to manipulate
                  fabrics
                  > with your hands than a sewing machine. (Doesn't stop me from using
                  my
                  > machine though!)
                  >
                  > Laurensa
                  >
                • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/31/2007 3:39:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, goofy4@comcast.net writes:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 1, 2008
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                    In a message dated 12/31/2007 3:39:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    goofy4@... writes:

                    <<That's how we ALL do it, Patrick. Very few people start out even
                    CLOSE to authentic.>>

                    Exactly. I started out in a 4-foot high, 7-foot diameter nylon dome tent,
                    wearing leather sandals or black fringed moccasin boots with polycotton wench
                    garb. On the way to where I am now, I have moved through several variations
                    on nylon cabin tents, and an old canvas Army tent before getting to a
                    pavilion, Thermarest mattress on the ground covered with a few sheepskins to an
                    old trundle bed frame and now to a take-down double size four poster with
                    curtains and canopy slat bed. My garb has moved from what I described above to
                    quite a few of my own invented patterns, most of which looked cool but bore no
                    resemblance to anything period, to various attempts of varying quality of
                    doing something that looked closer to right, to where I am now, using linen and
                    wool and trying to at least get the silhouette right even if I'm not sure of
                    the construction. And even at this level there are places to move on
                    further; a friend of mine who is at a similar level to me (and who started out as a
                    modern tribal belly dancer) recently got some good pictures of clothes taken
                    from the tomb of a Spanish bishop that have given her a new way of doing
                    neckline facings and seams which are making her construction a whole lot closer
                    to period.

                    Everybody does a little at a time, as they can afford it or have the time to
                    learn it. It's taken me nearly 20 years to get to where I am now. Those of
                    us who are a bit ahead on the road try to offer advice that cuts down on the
                    learning curve we went through and try to help newcomers who are interested
                    in authenticity get further along without having to reinvent the wheel, so
                    maybe they can get to where we are now (if they want to) in less time.


                    Brangwayna Morgan
                    Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                    Lancaster, PA



                    **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
                    (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 1/1/2008 9:00:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sandra.rangel16@yahoo.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 1, 2008
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                      In a message dated 1/1/2008 9:00:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      sandra.rangel16@... writes:

                      <<Correct me if I wrong but isn't close if not near to impossible to
                      create something 100% authenitic?>>

                      In many cases, yes, because it's not always even possible, much less
                      financially or otherwise plausible, for us to obtain the exact equivalent of the raw
                      material that would have been used in period. But the fact that I cannot
                      get wool from the same kind of sheep, raised in the same environment and on the
                      same feed as Brangwayna would have done, shouldn't be taken as a reason not
                      to try to do the best I can to replicate how she would have made the same
                      garment in terms of cut, construction, and decoration. Getting those three
                      factors right working with modern machine-processed store-bought wool is still
                      going to get me a lot closer to the authentic product than throwing something
                      together out of synthetics that looks cool.

                      << As far as art/sci is concerned isn't there also a limit on how far out
                      you can begin a project?>>

                      I have no idea on this, as I have never used an art/sci competition as a
                      reason to make something authentic. I neither enter nor judge art/sci, because
                      I think that contests of this sort are a big detriment to the SCA, and for
                      many an inspiration to fear trying to do something authentically. I think it's
                      a lot harder to get up the nerve to make something that you know you are
                      going to be judged on than it is to just make something to use. I have heard
                      others say that they find art/sci a good way to get feedback and new ideas that
                      help them learn to do things authentically, and I am pleased for them, but
                      the few I've ever entered never worked that way for me. I either got
                      pointless comments such as "I like it" or questions that would have been answered had
                      the person bothered to read my documentation before writing the question on
                      the comment sheet.

                      << I think without the help of others it is practicily impossible for
                      oneself to do so. Well that is along the lines of say garb.. >>

                      And so it would have been in period, too. It would have been highly
                      unlikely that a single woman in period would have raised her own sheep and flax,
                      processed the raw materials as well as making all the tools to do so, made her
                      own shears and needles, built her own loom, etc to make her clothes. That
                      would have required extensive skills in animal husbandry, agriculture, metal
                      work, carpentry, and a few other fields. She more likely would have purchased
                      many of the tools, or relied on another craftsman to make them in return for
                      some sort of barter, or even purchased woven cloth or even pre-made clothing.

                      <<because you could do somthing as simple as soap.>>

                      Is soap making really all that simple in the end? Making the lye, preparing
                      the oil, all the tools to do so and the pot to cook it in, molds for it -
                      again, I think it's likely that a soapmaker wouldn't have made all of these
                      things themselves prior to actually making the soap.

                      << I think when i approach
                      authencity I figure if someone is goign to look at my garb and pick
                      on me because I used a sewing machine or didn't use period shears
                      (like you can really tell??) I will just "smile and nod".>>

                      And so you should, if the person is just being rude and cutting you down.
                      I've done the "smile and nod" routine myself more than once.


                      Brangwayna Morgan
                      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                      Lancaster, PA



                      **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
                      (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Roland
                      As far as art/sci is concerned isn t there also a limit on how far out you can begin a project? I am going to assume that you mean for entry into a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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                        "As far as art/sci is concerned isn't there also a limit on how far
                        out you can begin a project?"

                        I am going to assume that you mean for entry into a competition here
                        as you can start a project and take as long as you like, or have, for
                        your own purposes. The answer is a matter of interkingdom
                        anthropology. Each Kingdom has its own rules, each A&S competition
                        may as well. In the Middle Kingdom, for regional A&S (if you place at
                        least second you are elligible to go on to Kingdom) competitions there
                        are at the moment NO restrictions for elligability on how long ago you
                        STARTED the project. However, there ARE restrictions for elligibility
                        on how long ago you COMPLETED the A&S project. Check your
                        local/kingdom rules. Contact your Minister of Arts and Sciences (MoAS)
                        or check online to see what your local/kingdom rules are for this.

                        "Correct me if I wrong but isn't close if not near to impossible to
                        create something 100% authenitic?"

                        In short, yes. 100% authenticity is utterly impossible. The air we
                        breath is different today than the air they breathed. They can have
                        and does affect chemical changes on the plants and animals, microbes
                        etc. Also the microbes now may not be the microbes then as well.
                        Okay so why do I start with chemistry and microbes? I make ink from
                        period recipes.

                        In a vast majority of recipes rain water is called for to be used
                        becuase it is reliably the purest water available. Umm, not today due
                        to the atmosphere an what we put into it in mass quantities. I use
                        steam distilled water, which frankly is good but we can't say
                        definitively if its functionally equivelant to rain water. Also some
                        recipes for ink find that soaking the oak galls in rain water and
                        allowing mold to grow on them creates a much blacker a beautiful ink.
                        Umm, period mold (microbes) anyone?

                        Oak galls themselves are a way for the oak tree to defend itself
                        against pests and such. Remember how acid raid was killing of forests
                        until we started to clean up our air? It affects the internal
                        chemistry of the tree as well. The ingredient in oak galls that makes
                        the ink work by the way is tannic acid, (not tannins as in tea but
                        tannic acid), and the balance of tannic acid in an oak gall DOES
                        change the recipe considerably and the quality of ink I assure you.
                        Did they know that in period? Well not like we do today thats for
                        sure. Yes, they knew some oak galls were better than others and other
                        things would work to make ink but the point is this: It is utterly
                        impossible for me to make 100% authenticly period ink because of these
                        very basic issues.

                        Can I make very very period ink? Sure. I'm gonna put in a wild guess
                        of 95% authentic. But I'll never reach 100%.

                        Just to show a bit further in period in europe they often wrote on
                        vellum/parchment or animal skins which were soaked in running water.
                        To temper the acid they sometimes used crushed eggshells, easy to get
                        ahold of certainly today but from a period egg? (On a side note I do
                        know there is a lord who raises period breeds of chickens but I don't
                        know if its on period feeds and that would affect the makeup of the
                        eggs).

                        And all of that is just for ink.

                        Period breeds of plants/animals for making your clothing? Sure wool
                        is a period material but is it from a period breed of sheep that got
                        rained on with the same rain and fed the period breed of food they
                        were fed? That after all would be 100% authenticity.

                        Does it sound ridiculous to go to this length? It does to me. But
                        that is what 100% authenticity would require in my mind.

                        I'm all for the 10 foot, 5 foot, 6 inches types of rules. If it looks
                        good at XYZ distances you've done pretty darn good and should be
                        congratulated. If you look like you're trying but just aren't making
                        a good go of it, courtesy and chivalry (ideals upheld in our SCA)
                        demands polite compliments and polite and useful offers of help NOT
                        tearing someone down and telling them how much they suck.

                        I have never torn into someone for using a cartridge pen or marker for
                        doing calligraphy. I promise you it is at least as abhorent as using
                        elastic as rayon in your garb. I have however offered to show someone
                        how to use a dip pen or quill and teach classes on the basics of
                        calligraphy. If they're not interested I complement on learning
                        calligraphy and am happy they're trying. If its something they like
                        doing they'll get to more period techiniques eventually. And besides
                        that, and most importantly:

                        Someone's lack of authentic tools and materials is not an attack on me
                        so I don't need to respond to it as if it were. Their lack of
                        authentic tools and materials in not an attack on the SCA or what we
                        are trying to do either and so I don't need to respond to it as if it
                        were. We are all teachers and/or learners in the SCA. As an
                        educational group its about the learning, the path, not the product or
                        destination. As a friend of mine put it once, "If you kill 'em they
                        don't learn nuthin'" Going after someone for their lack of
                        authenticity, especially anyone new, KILLS THEIR INTEREST.

                        Yes, garb nazis and authenticity police abound and are generally found
                        to be loathed everywhere. They can be anyone at any level. Here is
                        what most seem to fail to understand: Everyone will find what they
                        want to be authentic about and eventually other things they have/do
                        will become more and more authentic the longer they are in. It just
                        happens.

                        I have told my newcomers and I recommend this to everyone, if someone
                        starts in on your lack of authenticity on any given thing, politely
                        thank them for their interest and move on. If they continue, politely
                        express your surprise at their interest and ask what them how they are
                        willing to help fix the problem they are seeing since it is so
                        important to them. IE come to their house to learn, gift you with non-
                        offensive item(s) etc. (Its they SCA, they may indeed be willing to
                        help and just don't have the social skills that we'd like them to have
                        and it may indeed be a boon for you.) If they refuse or don't offer
                        anyway of helping, them politely say, "Oh, okay." and walk away.
                        Failing that if they continue, simply and politely ask them to leave
                        you alone. Failing that grab a white belt/baldric (Knight), Pelican
                        or Laurel and have them intervene. They're being incredibly rude and
                        need to have a talk with a peer about it.

                        I have also told my newcomers to come to me at ANY event I am at that
                        they are at and I will deal with the problem. In general the average
                        scadian is a helpful person. Some see telling others how unauthentic
                        they are to be helping them to become more authentic. If they're
                        doing it to the level of being rude they're being jerks not helpful.
                        And no it is NOT chivalrous to let such folks continue to be jerks to
                        you or others. However, you don't get to be a jerk back. Be nice.

                        Ian the Green, AoA, Calligrapher Scribe, Amature Ink Maker
                        Chatelain - Shire of Grey Gargoyles
                        Region of the Midlands
                        Middle Kingdom
                      • David Roland
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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                          << As far as art/sci is concerned isn't there also a limit on how
                          far out you can begin a project?>>

                          "I have no idea on this, as I have never used an art/sci competition
                          as a reason to make something authentic. I neither enter nor judge
                          art/sci, because I think that contests of this sort are a big
                          detriment to the SCA, and for many an inspiration to fear trying to
                          do something authentically."

                          > Brangwayna Morgan
                          > Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                          > Lancaster, PA

                          I respectfully disagree with this sentiment though I am fully aware
                          of that occuring for some people. This is one of those things that
                          I think celebrates the diversity of people in the SCA. For some
                          people it inspires fear of spitfire criticism let alone regular
                          criticism.

                          For myself, I LOVE A&S competions! And I know others who do as
                          well. At the very least its an exhibition for everyone to come and
                          see what is being done and to get some inspiration from it. I've
                          seen woodworkers get inspiration from clothing makers, fiberarts
                          folks get inspiration from calligraphy and many other such unlikely
                          matches.

                          On the personal level it gives me something to strive for and to aim
                          for. Do I -need- that? No, but I sure do like to have it. So to
                          me A&S competitions are a good thing. I stress this though and I
                          stress it a lot, only enter if -you- want to enter them. If you
                          don't then by all means don't. I do however encourage anyone who
                          has any interests whatsoever in doing arts and sciences to attend
                          A&S competitions and see what is there! I've never not learned
                          something new nor walked away thinking there was nothing of interest.

                          So, I suppose I should say that I disagree that A&S competitions are
                          bad but agree that they can and do inspire fear in some folks. But
                          for others it also inspires them. So do what you want when it comes
                          to A&S competitions.

                          On my first competition entry, (it went to kingdom level having
                          placed second in regional), one of my judges tried to hunt me down
                          at Pennsic 35 coming to my camp to give me some pointers and help.
                          Alas I was not there to have seen him not knowing he was coming.
                          He's a great person and I've exchanged a couple of very informative
                          e-mails with him. So the judges aren't all bad. Have I heard
                          horror stories? Yes, both from the judges who told of contestants
                          who were just mean to them and from contestants who had mean
                          judges. As in most such instances, I blame the individual who was
                          mean not the activity they were participating in.

                          Ian the Green, AoA
                        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                          In a message dated 1/2/2008 1:36:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mystborne@yahoo.com writes:
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 2, 2008
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                            In a message dated 1/2/2008 1:36:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            mystborne@... writes:

                            <<So, I suppose I should say that I disagree that A&S competitions are
                            bad but agree that they can and do inspire fear in some folks. But
                            for others it also inspires them. So do what you want when it comes
                            to A&S competitions.>>

                            Ian, I agree that folks should check out A&S competitions if they are so
                            inclined. My reason for noting that I don't like or participate in them is
                            partly just to express what may be a minority view, but mostly because there are
                            some myths that many people believe about competitions.

                            The first myth is that the only reason to try to do something authentically
                            is to win in competitions. Since I never enter them, I must have another
                            reason. My reason is that it is a fun challenge to learn how to do something
                            more authentically, and that I often find out that a more authentic
                            method/result is as easy or easier, as effective or more effective, etc, than the modern
                            version.

                            The second myth is that one must participate in competitions to win arts
                            awards at a kingdom or Society level. I am both a Companion of the Order of the
                            Manche, the East Kingdom arts award, and a member of the Order of the
                            Laurel, the Society level award, despite not participating in competitions. (I was
                            also never an apprentice.) So many newcomers get told they must enter
                            competitions if they want recognition in the arts; I'm a living example that it
                            doesn't have to be that way.

                            My reason for disliking arts competitions in the SCA context specifically is
                            firstly that I think there is too much emphasis on competition throughout
                            everyday society, and that no one seems to be able to get an sense of
                            achievement about having accomplished something unless they can win an award for it.
                            I'd like to think of the SCA as a place where you can get a sense of
                            achievement because you've learned to do something new that not many people know.

                            The second, even more closely SCA-oriented, is that these competitions are
                            actually one of the LEAST authentic things you can do at an event. People in
                            period didn't take their wares to modern county-fair style contests to be
                            judged, nor did craftmasters spend the majority of their time judging the works
                            of random other people. Yet the focus of activity at events of people who
                            do arts competitions seems to be primarily in either entering the competition
                            and spending time thinking about it, or sitting with their work, or in
                            judging other people's work, while not actually doing anything during the event
                            that their persona would have done in period. I like to go to events to do
                            things that Brangwayna would have done, so I take my projects and work on them
                            (and teach people about what I'm doing and how to do it), play period games,
                            dance, shoot archery, etc, none of which I would be able to do if I spent all
                            day in an arts competition.

                            Brangwayna Morgan
                            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                            Lancaster, PA




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                          • Ruth
                            I have two A&S/period related questions on two different topics, Calligraphy and Sewing. First; my boyfriend just made me a gorgeous wooden box to hold the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 3, 2008
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                              I have two A&S/period related questions on two different topics,
                              Calligraphy and Sewing.

                              First; my boyfriend just made me a gorgeous wooden box to hold the
                              cacophony of calligraphy supplies I have (from felt pens, to dip pens,
                              paper, gold pain, gold leaf.. you name it I probably have it). Highly
                              encouraging me to continue exploring period calligraphy (most of my
                              time has been spent copying Celtic knot work from the book of Kells
                              and other sources).

                              I think period ink is a bit too far for me to jump into directly,
                              however I'm sure that my dip pens are extremely modern versions of
                              such. I would be really interested in period types of pens. Are these
                              things you make yourself? Is there somewhere to buy them? Or since we
                              use ballpoint pens now, are the dip pens still a somewhat accurate
                              rendition of what was used.

                              Second; I have found it nearly impossible (in my local sewing shops)
                              to find anything but polyester thread. There is one, small sewing
                              shop, on the other side of town that sells 100% cotton thread, but
                              linen or wool thread is nowhere to be found. So far all of my (outer)
                              garb is linen, while under-garb is cotton, (with the exception of some
                              poorly advised 'wench outfits' I made first, which while cute and
                              functional, I will retire to loaner garb or pirate night at the local
                              bar).

                              Is there a website where one can order thread that is linen or wool.
                              Or even cotton... (the store I Found it, it was very spendy).

                              Thanks guys, I am really appreciating this authenticity discussion.

                              Rose Atherton
                              An Tir
                              Adiantum
                              (A newcomer who has never been harassed for using inauthentic garb)

                              PS. My personae tend from between Mid 14th Century to 16th Century
                              England, depending on which of my garb I feel like wearing. (Some day
                              I will either narrow it down, or create two distinct personas. Some day)
                            • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                              ... Well, the quill pen had long been standard by the 14th century and remained so through the 16th, so if you re looking for tools to suit your persona,
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 3, 2008
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                                Rose Atherton wrote:
                                > I would be really interested in period types of pens.

                                > My personae tend from between Mid 14th Century to 16th Century
                                > England. . .

                                Well, the quill pen had long been standard by the 14th century and
                                remained so through the 16th, so if you're looking for tools to suit
                                your persona, that's the obvious choice.

                                > Are these things you make yourself?

                                My understanding is that it takes a little time to learn how to cut a
                                proper pen, but once you've got the technique down it's a quick and
                                fairly easy process. There are instructions in most comprehensive
                                calligraphy books, as well as online <http://www.regia.org/quill2.htm>
                                <http://www.flick.com/~liralen/quills/quills.html>. Art supply stores
                                and educational outlets
                                <http://www.corpsrediscovery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?
                                Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PP808&Category_Code=cnp-projkits> sometimes
                                offer quills for the purpose. I'm sure you could obtain feathers from
                                a poultry farm, too. (Just remember that turkeys are North American
                                birds; if you want to be really authentic, go for the geese.)

                                > Is there somewhere to buy them?

                                There are many sources for prepared quill pens. They're popular items
                                for sale at museums
                                <http://www.libertybellmuseum.com/MuseumShop/quillpengoose.htm> and
                                living history exhibits
                                <http://www.williamsburgmarketplace.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/
                                ProductView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=12113&catgroupId=15921>
                                as well as at stationers' shops and art supply stores. Places that
                                carry ritual supplies for pagans will often stock a few, and I suspect
                                some of those that supply materials for Jewish ceremonies do, too.
                                Just be sure you get a proper quill pen, and not a reamed-out feather
                                with a brass nib fitted to it. And don't forget to keep a penknife on
                                hand, to sharpen the tip as needed.

                                > . . .are the dip pens still a somewhat accurate rendition of what was
                                > used.. . .

                                Metal nibs were rare, hand-crafted luxury items--more novelty items,
                                really--until the second quarter of the 19th century
                                <http://www.null-hypothesis.co.uk/article/110>
                                <http://www.artmuseums.harvard.edu/fogg/drawingglossary.html>. Using
                                one during the Renaissance was probably roughly analogous to using one
                                of those beautiful blown-glass pens they sell in Murano today.
                                Somebody, somewhere, has done it, but most folks, even those who write
                                a lot, haven't. And, of course, the few metal-nibbed pens that did
                                exist before 1600 weren't made of steel, as are modern nibs, so they
                                looked and functioned quite differently. If your goal is authenticity,
                                you should avoid modern calligraphy pens altogether.


                                Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                              • Patrick Callahan
                                I KREYZE PADREYK HEREBY ATTEST THAT I MENTALLY STABLE AND REASONABLY SANE. I TESTIFY TO THIS ONLY TO SAY THE FOLLOWING: I ONCE SAW A HOBBIT IN A BUTTON SHOP AT
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                                  I KREYZE PADREYK HEREBY ATTEST THAT I MENTALLY STABLE
                                  AND REASONABLY SANE.

                                  I TESTIFY TO THIS ONLY TO SAY THE FOLLOWING:

                                  I ONCE SAW A HOBBIT IN A BUTTON SHOP AT AN SCA EVENT.
                                  MAYBE I AM A LITTLE LAX ON MY AUTHENTICITY STANDARD
                                  AND I CERTAINLY WAS NOT HOLDING THIS HOBBIT TO THE
                                  GARB STANDARD I SET FOR MYSELF BUT IT SEEMED TO ME NOT
                                  SO INAPPROPRIATE AS LONG NOT EVERY WAS DOING IT. IT
                                  WAS AFTER A FASHION AN ATTEMPT AT MEDIEVAL CLOTHING.
                                  ALTHOUGH THE RESEARCH WAS MORE DRAMATICAL AND
                                  THEATRICAL IN NATURE THAN BASE ON HARD HISTORICAL
                                  FACTS.


                                  Kreyze Padreyk
                                • julian wilson
                                  Patrick Callahan wrote: I KREYZE PADREYK HEREBY ATTEST Snipped I ONCE SAW A HOBBIT - GOOD STUFF SNIPPED FOR THE SAKE OF BREVITY -
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                                    Patrick Callahan <naspiritwalker@...> wrote:
                                    I KREYZE PADREYK HEREBY ATTEST Snipped
                                    I ONCE SAW A HOBBIT - GOOD STUFF SNIPPED FOR THE SAKE OF BREVITY - ALTHOUGH THE RESEARCH WAS MORE DRAMATICAL AND
                                    THEATRICAL IN NATURE THAN BASE ON HARD HISTORICAL
                                    FACTS.


                                    .



                                    Comment
                                    Ah, but that hobbit was only following what I undertsand to be one of the SCA's very earliest traditions - when many of the Founding population of what became The Kingdom Of The West chose their personas from the "fantasy" and "sword & sorcery" stories being written by many of the early members; - many of whom are still "playing", these decades later, though some are gone before us - the immortal Marion Zimmer Bradley [neƩ Marion Breen, may God be good to her, - for example, who proposed the SCA name in 1967 IIRC], leaving a wonderful heritage behind for us to enjoy - and to thank her for on the Shining Fields, where we shall al meet again, in the Service of The Light.

                                    This humble veteran soldier believes that such diversity is one of the great strengths of the Society.

                                    In Service to the Light, and to Our dream,
                                    Lord Matthew Baker.






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                                  • Ziddinaaitzumar@comcast.net
                                    Hmmm. Very interesting - thanks for the information! I am tempted to beat myself against the cliffs of authenticity like an ocean wave crashing against the
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 6, 2008
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                                      Hmmm. Very interesting - thanks for the information! I am tempted to beat myself against the cliffs of authenticity like an ocean wave crashing against the rocks - in plain english - to try my skills against certain standards. But I am the Bionic Re=enactor! Ziddina

                                      -------------- Original message --------------
                                      From: Michele Bouchard <angeisdescent@...>
                                      Ziddina asked: Does anyone know which Kingdom is the most intensely
                                      dedicated to authenticity?

                                      This is a curious question, although I admit my inter-Kingdom anthropology is terribly rusty.

                                      I can only speak for two kingdoms so far (Caid and Ansteorra), since that's all Ive lived in, but as I recall my home Kingdom of Caid was very supportive of those seeking to further their persona research, and make that commitment to try for a more authentic persona. I remember the Pas de Arms tournament becoming very popular amoungst the fighters, which was a documentable form of combat 'practice.' (Ill say here and now I am not a combatant of any kind, so my terminology might be sorely lacking.) I also saw a resurgence of period-looking headgear, period footwear, and even period ornamentation.....suddenly Wal-Mart belts and chunky necklaces that were 'passable' were absent in favor of beautifully hand-crafted bronze-cast plaque belts and gorgeous 'initials' chains draping across men's shoulders. It seemed to happen overnight, but I know it was only after a renewed interest in research and artistic expression (and lots and lots of hard work!) I have not really
                                      gotten involved with the local A&S community here in Ansteorra just yet.....it's a massive Kingdom compared to what Im used to! lol

                                      Namaste,

                                      Sunayna





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