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Re: HMMM......

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  • Susan Farmer
    ... Thanks! 12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song 12 days of Christmas ? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day -- the 12th
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Jerusha;
      > Thank you for responding, actually would you be able to give me some
      > links on 12th Night and why it is important? Just understanding
      > would really help me out!!
      > Congrats on the new job too!!!
      >

      Thanks!

      12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song "12
      days of Christmas"? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day --
      the 12th day of Christmas is 12th night -- it's the day according to
      Tradition that the Wise Men brought gifts to the Christ Child.

      jerusha
    • Susan Farmer
      ... IMO it s Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don t do 12th night. Of course, we don t do Lent or Advent either. jerusha
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
        >
        > Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
        > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
        > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
        > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
        > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
        > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
        > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
        > >
        > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
        >
        > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
        >

        IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
        course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.

        jerusha
      • Labhaoise O'Beachain
        Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are others. Some do, some don t, and within each sect there are differences as well.
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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          Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are
          others. Some do, some don't, and within each sect there are differences
          as well.

          Baptists for example split from the Catholic church over the faith
          point of being saved by immersion(the dipped or sprinkled arguement).
          Like many of the other Protestants the protest in question was the
          waste, formality, and classism with in the Catholic (yes, RC) church;
          therefore in their reforms many of the celebrations were removed from
          the calendar they used.

          Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglecans(Episcopalians
          included) were launched in the time of Henry VII(not just because of
          his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a beleif that the
          pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric(English);
          therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
          reasons.

          Aditionally many of the celebrations of the Church, Protestant,
          Catholic, Orthodox, etc is based in what the people they were serving
          celebrated at the time they were christianized. Twelfth Night is from
          the British Isles predominantly and Feast of the Three Kings from the
          area around the Meditaranian, same basic dates, same "historical" event
          different names... but basically in both cases a celebration in waste
          and excess to celebrate surviving the worst of the Winter season.
          Labhaoise

          PS someone with more religious training than I please step in, I am
          chasing facts around the back of my brain....

          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:
          > > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
          > >
          >
          > IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
          > course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.
          >
          > jerusha
          >
        • julian wilson
          Labhaoise O Beachain wrote: MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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            Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
            MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED
            Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
            included) were launched in the time of Henry VII (not just because of
            his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a belief that the
            pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric (English);
            therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
            reasons.
            MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED


            .



            COMMENT
            Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why various Christian sects separated from the original "one True [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.

            Allow me please one small but important historical correction - the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29 years prior to the split with Rome.
            It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the founding of The Church of England.
            And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed" Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the Schism.
            The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, - since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain - had acknowledged Papal primacy.
            The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at peace"!
            What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.

            YiS,
            Matthew Baker.







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Labhaoise O'Beachain
            Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW! ... various Christian sects separated from the original one True [Christian] Church - the Church of
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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              Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW!

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@...>
              wrote:
              > COMMENT
              > Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why
              various Christian sects separated from the original "one True
              [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.
              >
              > Allow me please one small but important historical correction -
              the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29
              years prior to the split with Rome.
              > It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the
              founding of The Church of England.
              > And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the
              Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal
              affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed"
              Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy
              as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the
              Schism.
              > The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon
              is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last
              [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-
              ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, -
              since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain -
              had acknowledged Papal primacy.
              > The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the
              small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed
              the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and
              hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to
              other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at
              peace"!
              > What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the
              supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not
              actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they
              obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied
              threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate
              sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by
              the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could
              then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.
              >
              > YiS,
              > Matthew Baker.
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