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Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......

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  • Labhaoise O'Beachain
    like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large C Catholic is
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
      like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen
      most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large
      C Catholic is used to refer to RC (Roman Catholic) and small c refers
      to the larger christian church....

      As for our purposes, one would celebrate in the tradition of the
      period ... most likely in the Western European tradition. In the
      medival period and into the renessance, christians in Europe held to
      the (Roman) Catholic traditions under the Pope or Bishop of Rome.

      Eastern Europe and into Asia predominantly fell into a catholic
      traditon that grew into Russian Catholics, Polish Catholics, Eastern
      Orothodox, etc who followed the lead of the Bishops at Constantinople.
      These groups mostly did NOT celebrate Twelfth Night or the Feast of the
      Three Kings.

      I'm afraid I've traveled rather far afield, but while I'm here Epiphany
      is the celebration of the Manifestaion of Christ(go figure, how those
      got together) but epiphany is the "Ah Hah" moment that changes
      vision.... (well that makes sense, Christ appears(manifests), we all go
      AH HAH, realizing the way...)
      Labhaoise

      PS I NEVER correct other's spelling, MINE is TOO bad.
      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
      >
      > hey, don't be like that...
      > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
      > <labhaoise_obeachain@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
      > >
      > > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
      > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
      > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
      > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
      > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
      > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
      > >
      >
    • Susan Farmer
      ... Thanks! 12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song 12 days of Christmas ? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day -- the 12th
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Jerusha;
        > Thank you for responding, actually would you be able to give me some
        > links on 12th Night and why it is important? Just understanding
        > would really help me out!!
        > Congrats on the new job too!!!
        >

        Thanks!

        12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song "12
        days of Christmas"? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day --
        the 12th day of Christmas is 12th night -- it's the day according to
        Tradition that the Wise Men brought gifts to the Christ Child.

        jerusha
      • Susan Farmer
        ... IMO it s Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don t do 12th night. Of course, we don t do Lent or Advent either. jerusha
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
          >
          > Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
          > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
          > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
          > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
          > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
          > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
          > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
          > >
          > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
          >
          > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
          >

          IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
          course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.

          jerusha
        • Labhaoise O'Beachain
          Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are others. Some do, some don t, and within each sect there are differences as well.
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
            Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are
            others. Some do, some don't, and within each sect there are differences
            as well.

            Baptists for example split from the Catholic church over the faith
            point of being saved by immersion(the dipped or sprinkled arguement).
            Like many of the other Protestants the protest in question was the
            waste, formality, and classism with in the Catholic (yes, RC) church;
            therefore in their reforms many of the celebrations were removed from
            the calendar they used.

            Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglecans(Episcopalians
            included) were launched in the time of Henry VII(not just because of
            his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a beleif that the
            pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric(English);
            therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
            reasons.

            Aditionally many of the celebrations of the Church, Protestant,
            Catholic, Orthodox, etc is based in what the people they were serving
            celebrated at the time they were christianized. Twelfth Night is from
            the British Isles predominantly and Feast of the Three Kings from the
            area around the Meditaranian, same basic dates, same "historical" event
            different names... but basically in both cases a celebration in waste
            and excess to celebrate surviving the worst of the Winter season.
            Labhaoise

            PS someone with more religious training than I please step in, I am
            chasing facts around the back of my brain....

            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:
            > > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
            > >
            >
            > IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
            > course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.
            >
            > jerusha
            >
          • julian wilson
            Labhaoise O Beachain wrote: MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
              Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
              MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED
              Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
              included) were launched in the time of Henry VII (not just because of
              his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a belief that the
              pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric (English);
              therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
              reasons.
              MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED


              .



              COMMENT
              Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why various Christian sects separated from the original "one True [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.

              Allow me please one small but important historical correction - the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29 years prior to the split with Rome.
              It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the founding of The Church of England.
              And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed" Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the Schism.
              The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, - since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain - had acknowledged Papal primacy.
              The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at peace"!
              What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.

              YiS,
              Matthew Baker.







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Labhaoise O'Beachain
              Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW! ... various Christian sects separated from the original one True [Christian] Church - the Church of
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
                Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW!

                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@...>
                wrote:
                > COMMENT
                > Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why
                various Christian sects separated from the original "one True
                [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.
                >
                > Allow me please one small but important historical correction -
                the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29
                years prior to the split with Rome.
                > It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the
                founding of The Church of England.
                > And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the
                Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal
                affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed"
                Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy
                as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the
                Schism.
                > The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon
                is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last
                [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-
                ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, -
                since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain -
                had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                > The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the
                small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed
                the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and
                hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to
                other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at
                peace"!
                > What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the
                supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not
                actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they
                obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied
                threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate
                sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by
                the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could
                then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.
                >
                > YiS,
                > Matthew Baker.
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