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Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......

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  • tasuil
    So besides the spelling - do you have anything to add about 12th Night? ... meaning universal it s a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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      So besides the spelling - do you have anything to add about 12th
      Night?



      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Cember
      <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:
      >
      > If you change it to a small c, it becomes "catholic"
      meaning "universal" it's a different word than Catholic as in the
      Roman Catholic Church which is capitalized. Therefore the spelling
      correction is also a correction of meaning.
      >
      > It's like:
      > A: Blueberries are yummy.
      > B: I think you mean raspberries.
      >
      > Verses:
      > A: Bleuberries are yummy.
      > B: I think you mean blueberries.
      >
      > Sorry, I've been playing that freerice.com game and doing a lot of
      vocab thinking lately.
      >
      > Elspeth
      >
      > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
      things;
      > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: tasuil <tasuil@...>
      > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:25:59 PM
      > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      > Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling
      correction not a
      >
      > philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Elizabeth Cember
      >
      > <sapphire_chan@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the
      >
      > SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless
      you're
      >
      > trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of
      >
      > Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit
      >
      > too encompassing for it to really work in that context.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Elspeth
      >
      > >
      >
      > > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
      >
      > things;
      >
      > > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > ----- Original Message ----
      >
      > > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachai n@...>
      >
      > > To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
      >
      > > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM
      >
      > > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
      >
      > >
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      > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>
      >
      > wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the
      Catholic
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the
      song),
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29
      >
      > >
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      > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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    • Sara L Uckelman
      ... Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know. -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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        Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
        > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
        > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
        > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
        > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
        > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
        >
        > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....

        Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.

        -Aryanhwy


        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      • bronwynmgn@aol.com
        In a message dated 11/2/2007 6:32:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, liana@ellipsis.cx writes:
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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          In a message dated 11/2/2007 6:32:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          liana@... writes:

          <<Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.>>

          Episcopalians do, to a certain extent. The church that I go to does a very
          elaborate 12th night pageant, 3 performances, on the Sunday closest to the
          actual date of 12th night most years. It involves over 100 cast members,
          including some who fly back from all sorts of places to perform their traditional
          roles. One of the guys who comes back every year is a retired Marine general
          and he gets dolled up in an Elizabeth doublet, trunk hose and tights every
          year...My hubby and another local Scadian put on their armor and act as door
          guards and clank around through the sanctuary a few times before the
          performance.

          We aren't doing it this year though. We take a break every 7 years - why
          seven, I do not know. But as the priest pointed out, it's a good year to take
          a break since Easter is so incredibly early this year - it's something like
          March 22.


          Brangwayna Morgan
          Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
          Lancaster, PA



          ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Labhaoise O'Beachain
          like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large C Catholic is
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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            like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen
            most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large
            C Catholic is used to refer to RC (Roman Catholic) and small c refers
            to the larger christian church....

            As for our purposes, one would celebrate in the tradition of the
            period ... most likely in the Western European tradition. In the
            medival period and into the renessance, christians in Europe held to
            the (Roman) Catholic traditions under the Pope or Bishop of Rome.

            Eastern Europe and into Asia predominantly fell into a catholic
            traditon that grew into Russian Catholics, Polish Catholics, Eastern
            Orothodox, etc who followed the lead of the Bishops at Constantinople.
            These groups mostly did NOT celebrate Twelfth Night or the Feast of the
            Three Kings.

            I'm afraid I've traveled rather far afield, but while I'm here Epiphany
            is the celebration of the Manifestaion of Christ(go figure, how those
            got together) but epiphany is the "Ah Hah" moment that changes
            vision.... (well that makes sense, Christ appears(manifests), we all go
            AH HAH, realizing the way...)
            Labhaoise

            PS I NEVER correct other's spelling, MINE is TOO bad.
            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
            >
            > hey, don't be like that...
            > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
            > <labhaoise_obeachain@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
            > >
            > > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@> wrote:
            > >
            > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
            > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
            > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
            > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
            > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
            > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
            > >
            >
          • Susan Farmer
            ... Thanks! 12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song 12 days of Christmas ? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day -- the 12th
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Jerusha;
              > Thank you for responding, actually would you be able to give me some
              > links on 12th Night and why it is important? Just understanding
              > would really help me out!!
              > Congrats on the new job too!!!
              >

              Thanks!

              12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song "12
              days of Christmas"? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day --
              the 12th day of Christmas is 12th night -- it's the day according to
              Tradition that the Wise Men brought gifts to the Christ Child.

              jerusha
            • Susan Farmer
              ... IMO it s Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don t do 12th night. Of course, we don t do Lent or Advent either. jerusha
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                >
                > Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                > >
                > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                >
                > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
                >

                IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
                course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.

                jerusha
              • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are others. Some do, some don t, and within each sect there are differences as well.
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                  Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are
                  others. Some do, some don't, and within each sect there are differences
                  as well.

                  Baptists for example split from the Catholic church over the faith
                  point of being saved by immersion(the dipped or sprinkled arguement).
                  Like many of the other Protestants the protest in question was the
                  waste, formality, and classism with in the Catholic (yes, RC) church;
                  therefore in their reforms many of the celebrations were removed from
                  the calendar they used.

                  Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglecans(Episcopalians
                  included) were launched in the time of Henry VII(not just because of
                  his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a beleif that the
                  pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric(English);
                  therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
                  reasons.

                  Aditionally many of the celebrations of the Church, Protestant,
                  Catholic, Orthodox, etc is based in what the people they were serving
                  celebrated at the time they were christianized. Twelfth Night is from
                  the British Isles predominantly and Feast of the Three Kings from the
                  area around the Meditaranian, same basic dates, same "historical" event
                  different names... but basically in both cases a celebration in waste
                  and excess to celebrate surviving the worst of the Winter season.
                  Labhaoise

                  PS someone with more religious training than I please step in, I am
                  chasing facts around the back of my brain....

                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:
                  > > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
                  > >
                  >
                  > IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
                  > course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.
                  >
                  > jerusha
                  >
                • julian wilson
                  Labhaoise O Beachain wrote: MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                    Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                    MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED
                    Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
                    included) were launched in the time of Henry VII (not just because of
                    his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a belief that the
                    pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric (English);
                    therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
                    reasons.
                    MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED


                    .



                    COMMENT
                    Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why various Christian sects separated from the original "one True [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.

                    Allow me please one small but important historical correction - the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29 years prior to the split with Rome.
                    It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the founding of The Church of England.
                    And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed" Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the Schism.
                    The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, - since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain - had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                    The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at peace"!
                    What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.

                    YiS,
                    Matthew Baker.







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                    Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW! ... various Christian sects separated from the original one True [Christian] Church - the Church of
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                      Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW!

                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@...>
                      wrote:
                      > COMMENT
                      > Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why
                      various Christian sects separated from the original "one True
                      [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.
                      >
                      > Allow me please one small but important historical correction -
                      the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29
                      years prior to the split with Rome.
                      > It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the
                      founding of The Church of England.
                      > And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the
                      Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal
                      affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed"
                      Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy
                      as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the
                      Schism.
                      > The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon
                      is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last
                      [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-
                      ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, -
                      since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain -
                      had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                      > The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the
                      small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed
                      the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and
                      hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to
                      other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at
                      peace"!
                      > What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the
                      supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not
                      actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they
                      obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied
                      threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate
                      sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by
                      the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could
                      then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.
                      >
                      > YiS,
                      > Matthew Baker.
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