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Re: HMMM......

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  • tasuil
    Lovely but I am not at that detail - thanks ... to
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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      Lovely but I am not at that detail - thanks

      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "sidhemaiden" <sidhemaiden@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > In this instance it is a capitol C as she is refering particularly
      to
      > the Roman Catholic Church and its festival calendar.
      >
      >
      > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
      > <labhaoise_obeachain@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
      >
    • Elizabeth Cember
      If you change it to a small c, it becomes catholic meaning universal it s a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic Church which is
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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        If you change it to a small c, it becomes "catholic" meaning "universal" it's a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic Church which is capitalized. Therefore the spelling correction is also a correction of meaning.

        It's like:
        A: Blueberries are yummy.
        B: I think you mean raspberries.

        Verses:
        A: Bleuberries are yummy.
        B: I think you mean blueberries.

        Sorry, I've been playing that freerice.com game and doing a lot of vocab thinking lately.

        Elspeth

        I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
        I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: tasuil <tasuil@...>
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:25:59 PM
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......













        Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling correction not a

        philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.



        --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Elizabeth Cember

        <sapphire_chan@ ...> wrote:

        >

        > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the

        SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless you're

        trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of

        Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit

        too encompassing for it to really work in that context.

        >

        > Elspeth

        >

        > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful

        things;

        > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.

        >

        > ----- Original Message ----

        > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachai n@...>

        > To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

        > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM

        > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....

        >

        >

        >

        > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>

        wrote:

        >

        >

        >

        > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic

        >

        > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the

        >

        > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),

        >

        > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit

        >

        > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at

        >

        > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

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        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >














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        __________________________________________________
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      • tasuil
        So besides the spelling - do you have anything to add about 12th Night? ... meaning universal it s a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          So besides the spelling - do you have anything to add about 12th
          Night?



          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Cember
          <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:
          >
          > If you change it to a small c, it becomes "catholic"
          meaning "universal" it's a different word than Catholic as in the
          Roman Catholic Church which is capitalized. Therefore the spelling
          correction is also a correction of meaning.
          >
          > It's like:
          > A: Blueberries are yummy.
          > B: I think you mean raspberries.
          >
          > Verses:
          > A: Bleuberries are yummy.
          > B: I think you mean blueberries.
          >
          > Sorry, I've been playing that freerice.com game and doing a lot of
          vocab thinking lately.
          >
          > Elspeth
          >
          > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
          things;
          > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: tasuil <tasuil@...>
          > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:25:59 PM
          > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling
          correction not a
          >
          > philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Elizabeth Cember
          >
          > <sapphire_chan@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the
          >
          > SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless
          you're
          >
          > trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of
          >
          > Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit
          >
          > too encompassing for it to really work in that context.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Elspeth
          >
          > >
          >
          > > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
          >
          > things;
          >
          > > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > ----- Original Message ----
          >
          > > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachai n@...>
          >
          > > To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
          >
          > > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM
          >
          > > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>
          >
          > wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the
          Catholic
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the
          song),
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > <!--
          >
          > >
          >
          > > #ygrp-mkp{
          >
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          color:#333; text-
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          >
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          >
          > > font-weight: bold;}
          >
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          >
          > > text-decoration: none;}
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          > >
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          >
          > > background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
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          >
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        • Sara L Uckelman
          ... Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know. -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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            Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
            > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
            > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
            > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
            > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
            > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
            >
            > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....

            Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.

            -Aryanhwy


            --
            vita sine literis mors est
            http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/2/2007 6:32:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, liana@ellipsis.cx writes:
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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              In a message dated 11/2/2007 6:32:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              liana@... writes:

              <<Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.>>

              Episcopalians do, to a certain extent. The church that I go to does a very
              elaborate 12th night pageant, 3 performances, on the Sunday closest to the
              actual date of 12th night most years. It involves over 100 cast members,
              including some who fly back from all sorts of places to perform their traditional
              roles. One of the guys who comes back every year is a retired Marine general
              and he gets dolled up in an Elizabeth doublet, trunk hose and tights every
              year...My hubby and another local Scadian put on their armor and act as door
              guards and clank around through the sanctuary a few times before the
              performance.

              We aren't doing it this year though. We take a break every 7 years - why
              seven, I do not know. But as the priest pointed out, it's a good year to take
              a break since Easter is so incredibly early this year - it's something like
              March 22.


              Brangwayna Morgan
              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
              Lancaster, PA



              ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Labhaoise O'Beachain
              like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large C Catholic is
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen
                most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large
                C Catholic is used to refer to RC (Roman Catholic) and small c refers
                to the larger christian church....

                As for our purposes, one would celebrate in the tradition of the
                period ... most likely in the Western European tradition. In the
                medival period and into the renessance, christians in Europe held to
                the (Roman) Catholic traditions under the Pope or Bishop of Rome.

                Eastern Europe and into Asia predominantly fell into a catholic
                traditon that grew into Russian Catholics, Polish Catholics, Eastern
                Orothodox, etc who followed the lead of the Bishops at Constantinople.
                These groups mostly did NOT celebrate Twelfth Night or the Feast of the
                Three Kings.

                I'm afraid I've traveled rather far afield, but while I'm here Epiphany
                is the celebration of the Manifestaion of Christ(go figure, how those
                got together) but epiphany is the "Ah Hah" moment that changes
                vision.... (well that makes sense, Christ appears(manifests), we all go
                AH HAH, realizing the way...)
                Labhaoise

                PS I NEVER correct other's spelling, MINE is TOO bad.
                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
                >
                > hey, don't be like that...
                > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
                > <labhaoise_obeachain@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                > >
                > > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                > >
                >
              • Susan Farmer
                ... Thanks! 12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song 12 days of Christmas ? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day -- the 12th
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Jerusha;
                  > Thank you for responding, actually would you be able to give me some
                  > links on 12th Night and why it is important? Just understanding
                  > would really help me out!!
                  > Congrats on the new job too!!!
                  >

                  Thanks!

                  12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song "12
                  days of Christmas"? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day --
                  the 12th day of Christmas is 12th night -- it's the day according to
                  Tradition that the Wise Men brought gifts to the Christ Child.

                  jerusha
                • Susan Farmer
                  ... IMO it s Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don t do 12th night. Of course, we don t do Lent or Advent either. jerusha
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                    > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                    > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                    > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                    > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                    > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                    > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                    > >
                    > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                    >
                    > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
                    >

                    IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
                    course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.

                    jerusha
                  • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                    Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are others. Some do, some don t, and within each sect there are differences as well.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                      Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are
                      others. Some do, some don't, and within each sect there are differences
                      as well.

                      Baptists for example split from the Catholic church over the faith
                      point of being saved by immersion(the dipped or sprinkled arguement).
                      Like many of the other Protestants the protest in question was the
                      waste, formality, and classism with in the Catholic (yes, RC) church;
                      therefore in their reforms many of the celebrations were removed from
                      the calendar they used.

                      Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglecans(Episcopalians
                      included) were launched in the time of Henry VII(not just because of
                      his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a beleif that the
                      pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric(English);
                      therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
                      reasons.

                      Aditionally many of the celebrations of the Church, Protestant,
                      Catholic, Orthodox, etc is based in what the people they were serving
                      celebrated at the time they were christianized. Twelfth Night is from
                      the British Isles predominantly and Feast of the Three Kings from the
                      area around the Meditaranian, same basic dates, same "historical" event
                      different names... but basically in both cases a celebration in waste
                      and excess to celebrate surviving the worst of the Winter season.
                      Labhaoise

                      PS someone with more religious training than I please step in, I am
                      chasing facts around the back of my brain....

                      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:
                      > > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
                      > >
                      >
                      > IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
                      > course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.
                      >
                      > jerusha
                      >
                    • julian wilson
                      Labhaoise O Beachain wrote: MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                        Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                        MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED
                        Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
                        included) were launched in the time of Henry VII (not just because of
                        his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a belief that the
                        pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric (English);
                        therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
                        reasons.
                        MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED


                        .



                        COMMENT
                        Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why various Christian sects separated from the original "one True [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.

                        Allow me please one small but important historical correction - the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29 years prior to the split with Rome.
                        It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the founding of The Church of England.
                        And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed" Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the Schism.
                        The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, - since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain - had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                        The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at peace"!
                        What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.

                        YiS,
                        Matthew Baker.







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                        Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW! ... various Christian sects separated from the original one True [Christian] Church - the Church of
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                          Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW!

                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@...>
                          wrote:
                          > COMMENT
                          > Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why
                          various Christian sects separated from the original "one True
                          [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.
                          >
                          > Allow me please one small but important historical correction -
                          the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29
                          years prior to the split with Rome.
                          > It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the
                          founding of The Church of England.
                          > And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the
                          Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal
                          affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed"
                          Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy
                          as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the
                          Schism.
                          > The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon
                          is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last
                          [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-
                          ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, -
                          since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain -
                          had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                          > The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the
                          small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed
                          the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and
                          hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to
                          other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at
                          peace"!
                          > What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the
                          supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not
                          actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they
                          obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied
                          threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate
                          sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by
                          the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could
                          then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.
                          >
                          > YiS,
                          > Matthew Baker.
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