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Re: HMMM......

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  • sidhemaiden
    In this instance it is a capitol C as she is refering particularly to the Roman Catholic Church and its festival calendar.
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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      In this instance it is a capitol C as she is refering particularly to
      the Roman Catholic Church and its festival calendar.


      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
      <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
      >
      > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
    • tasuil
      hey, don t be like that...
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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        hey, don't be like that...
        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
        <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
        >
        > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
        >
        > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@> wrote:
        >
        > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
        > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
        > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
        > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
        > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
        >
      • tasuil
        Again-I do understand that people are busy no defense of your time is needed this is just an open-forum. But I did like your idea about the linens and redoing.
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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          Again-I do understand that people are busy no defense of your time
          is needed this is just an open-forum. But I did like your idea about
          the linens and redoing.
          Thanks


          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
          <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
          >
          > Toss in life in general, you know mundane stuff and that sounds
          about
          > right.... I haven't had a chance to pull together garb, me or the
          > kids either.... I ripped the seams out of two linen dresses and a
          > couple of wool skirts for fabric for the kids and had to start
          > packing my life up (AGAIN!) I know that Golden Key exists, but I
          and
          > they do not seem to be able to match up times.... AND I work with
          > some of these people~
          >
          > I have been to a couple of "undress" gatherings and I would like
          to
          > pull out my 'broideries and go to a practice...
          >
          > So, I am as tied up as the old hands...
          > Labhaoise
          >
          > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All;
          > >
          > > To preface, this is just the newcomers area - anyone who wants
          to
          > > defend SCA is missing the point, I am not asking for that, this
          is
          > > just to help us newbies with the trials and tribulations of
          fiting
          > > into SCA... So please NO Offense is meant to anyone anywhere
          > > anyhow...
          > > But I do know that others share these feelings too.
          > >
          > > In a kingdom, a newbie, of course...While lots has been
          happening
          > > with the established groups nothing seems to be happening for
          > > newbies...At least until after 12th Night.
          > >
          > > I guess this is biggest celebration of the year and everyone but
          > > everyone is doing something special for it.
          > >
          > > Personally, I haven't got a clue and obviously from the various
          > > responses (polite but firm of) "Know you are new" "Would love to
          > > help with [pick a topic]but can't until after 12th Night"
          > > Even have contacted some guilds but lots of out of date stuff
          > there;
          > > so have worked on Heraldry, research, clothing to keep myself
          out
          > of
          > > trouble...Hmmmmm...
          > > Anyone else going through some of this???
          > >
          >
        • tasuil
          Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling correction not a philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint. ... SCA version of 12th night on their
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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            Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling correction not a
            philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.


            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Cember
            <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:
            >
            > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the
            SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless you're
            trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of
            Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit
            too encompassing for it to really work in that context.
            >
            > Elspeth
            >
            > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
            things;
            > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...>
            > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM
            > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
            >
            > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
            >
            > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
            >
            > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
            >
            > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
            >
            > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29
            >
            >
            >
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          • tasuil
            Lovely but I am not at that detail - thanks ... to
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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              Lovely but I am not at that detail - thanks

              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "sidhemaiden" <sidhemaiden@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > In this instance it is a capitol C as she is refering particularly
              to
              > the Roman Catholic Church and its festival calendar.
              >
              >
              > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
              > <labhaoise_obeachain@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
              >
            • Elizabeth Cember
              If you change it to a small c, it becomes catholic meaning universal it s a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic Church which is
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                If you change it to a small c, it becomes "catholic" meaning "universal" it's a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic Church which is capitalized. Therefore the spelling correction is also a correction of meaning.

                It's like:
                A: Blueberries are yummy.
                B: I think you mean raspberries.

                Verses:
                A: Bleuberries are yummy.
                B: I think you mean blueberries.

                Sorry, I've been playing that freerice.com game and doing a lot of vocab thinking lately.

                Elspeth

                I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
                I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: tasuil <tasuil@...>
                To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:25:59 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......













                Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling correction not a

                philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.



                --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Elizabeth Cember

                <sapphire_chan@ ...> wrote:

                >

                > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the

                SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless you're

                trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of

                Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit

                too encompassing for it to really work in that context.

                >

                > Elspeth

                >

                > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful

                things;

                > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.

                >

                > ----- Original Message ----

                > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachai n@...>

                > To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

                > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM

                > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....

                >

                >

                >

                > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>

                wrote:

                >

                >

                >

                > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic

                >

                > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the

                >

                > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),

                >

                > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit

                >

                > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at

                >

                > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29

                >

                >

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              • tasuil
                So besides the spelling - do you have anything to add about 12th Night? ... meaning universal it s a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                  So besides the spelling - do you have anything to add about 12th
                  Night?



                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Cember
                  <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > If you change it to a small c, it becomes "catholic"
                  meaning "universal" it's a different word than Catholic as in the
                  Roman Catholic Church which is capitalized. Therefore the spelling
                  correction is also a correction of meaning.
                  >
                  > It's like:
                  > A: Blueberries are yummy.
                  > B: I think you mean raspberries.
                  >
                  > Verses:
                  > A: Bleuberries are yummy.
                  > B: I think you mean blueberries.
                  >
                  > Sorry, I've been playing that freerice.com game and doing a lot of
                  vocab thinking lately.
                  >
                  > Elspeth
                  >
                  > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
                  things;
                  > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: tasuil <tasuil@...>
                  > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:25:59 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling
                  correction not a
                  >
                  > philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Elizabeth Cember
                  >
                  > <sapphire_chan@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the
                  >
                  > SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless
                  you're
                  >
                  > trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of
                  >
                  > Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit
                  >
                  > too encompassing for it to really work in that context.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Elspeth
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
                  >
                  > things;
                  >
                  > > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > ----- Original Message ----
                  >
                  > > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachai n@...>
                  >
                  > > To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM
                  >
                  > > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>
                  >
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the
                  Catholic
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the
                  song),
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
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                  > >
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                  > >
                  >
                  > > <!--
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                  > > font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold;
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                  > >
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                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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                • Sara L Uckelman
                  ... Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know. -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                    Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                    > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                    > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                    > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                    > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                    > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                    >
                    > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....

                    Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.

                    -Aryanhwy


                    --
                    vita sine literis mors est
                    http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 11/2/2007 6:32:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, liana@ellipsis.cx writes:
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                      In a message dated 11/2/2007 6:32:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                      liana@... writes:

                      <<Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.>>

                      Episcopalians do, to a certain extent. The church that I go to does a very
                      elaborate 12th night pageant, 3 performances, on the Sunday closest to the
                      actual date of 12th night most years. It involves over 100 cast members,
                      including some who fly back from all sorts of places to perform their traditional
                      roles. One of the guys who comes back every year is a retired Marine general
                      and he gets dolled up in an Elizabeth doublet, trunk hose and tights every
                      year...My hubby and another local Scadian put on their armor and act as door
                      guards and clank around through the sanctuary a few times before the
                      performance.

                      We aren't doing it this year though. We take a break every 7 years - why
                      seven, I do not know. But as the priest pointed out, it's a good year to take
                      a break since Easter is so incredibly early this year - it's something like
                      March 22.


                      Brangwayna Morgan
                      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                      Lancaster, PA



                      ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                      like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large C Catholic is
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                        like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen
                        most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large
                        C Catholic is used to refer to RC (Roman Catholic) and small c refers
                        to the larger christian church....

                        As for our purposes, one would celebrate in the tradition of the
                        period ... most likely in the Western European tradition. In the
                        medival period and into the renessance, christians in Europe held to
                        the (Roman) Catholic traditions under the Pope or Bishop of Rome.

                        Eastern Europe and into Asia predominantly fell into a catholic
                        traditon that grew into Russian Catholics, Polish Catholics, Eastern
                        Orothodox, etc who followed the lead of the Bishops at Constantinople.
                        These groups mostly did NOT celebrate Twelfth Night or the Feast of the
                        Three Kings.

                        I'm afraid I've traveled rather far afield, but while I'm here Epiphany
                        is the celebration of the Manifestaion of Christ(go figure, how those
                        got together) but epiphany is the "Ah Hah" moment that changes
                        vision.... (well that makes sense, Christ appears(manifests), we all go
                        AH HAH, realizing the way...)
                        Labhaoise

                        PS I NEVER correct other's spelling, MINE is TOO bad.
                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > hey, don't be like that...
                        > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
                        > <labhaoise_obeachain@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                        > >
                        > > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                        > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                        > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                        > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                        > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                        > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                        > >
                        >
                      • Susan Farmer
                        ... Thanks! 12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song 12 days of Christmas ? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day -- the 12th
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                          --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Jerusha;
                          > Thank you for responding, actually would you be able to give me some
                          > links on 12th Night and why it is important? Just understanding
                          > would really help me out!!
                          > Congrats on the new job too!!!
                          >

                          Thanks!

                          12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song "12
                          days of Christmas"? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day --
                          the 12th day of Christmas is 12th night -- it's the day according to
                          Tradition that the Wise Men brought gifts to the Christ Child.

                          jerusha
                        • Susan Farmer
                          ... IMO it s Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don t do 12th night. Of course, we don t do Lent or Advent either. jerusha
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                            > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                            > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                            > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                            > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                            > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                            > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                            > >
                            > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                            >
                            > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
                            >

                            IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
                            course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.

                            jerusha
                          • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                            Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are others. Some do, some don t, and within each sect there are differences as well.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                              Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are
                              others. Some do, some don't, and within each sect there are differences
                              as well.

                              Baptists for example split from the Catholic church over the faith
                              point of being saved by immersion(the dipped or sprinkled arguement).
                              Like many of the other Protestants the protest in question was the
                              waste, formality, and classism with in the Catholic (yes, RC) church;
                              therefore in their reforms many of the celebrations were removed from
                              the calendar they used.

                              Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglecans(Episcopalians
                              included) were launched in the time of Henry VII(not just because of
                              his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a beleif that the
                              pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric(English);
                              therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
                              reasons.

                              Aditionally many of the celebrations of the Church, Protestant,
                              Catholic, Orthodox, etc is based in what the people they were serving
                              celebrated at the time they were christianized. Twelfth Night is from
                              the British Isles predominantly and Feast of the Three Kings from the
                              area around the Meditaranian, same basic dates, same "historical" event
                              different names... but basically in both cases a celebration in waste
                              and excess to celebrate surviving the worst of the Winter season.
                              Labhaoise

                              PS someone with more religious training than I please step in, I am
                              chasing facts around the back of my brain....

                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:
                              > > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
                              > >
                              >
                              > IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
                              > course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.
                              >
                              > jerusha
                              >
                            • julian wilson
                              Labhaoise O Beachain wrote: MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                                MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED
                                Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
                                included) were launched in the time of Henry VII (not just because of
                                his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a belief that the
                                pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric (English);
                                therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
                                reasons.
                                MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED


                                .



                                COMMENT
                                Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why various Christian sects separated from the original "one True [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.

                                Allow me please one small but important historical correction - the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29 years prior to the split with Rome.
                                It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the founding of The Church of England.
                                And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed" Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the Schism.
                                The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, - since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain - had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                                The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at peace"!
                                What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.

                                YiS,
                                Matthew Baker.







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                                Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW! ... various Christian sects separated from the original one True [Christian] Church - the Church of
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                  Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW!

                                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > COMMENT
                                  > Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why
                                  various Christian sects separated from the original "one True
                                  [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.
                                  >
                                  > Allow me please one small but important historical correction -
                                  the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29
                                  years prior to the split with Rome.
                                  > It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the
                                  founding of The Church of England.
                                  > And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the
                                  Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal
                                  affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed"
                                  Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy
                                  as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the
                                  Schism.
                                  > The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon
                                  is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last
                                  [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-
                                  ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, -
                                  since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain -
                                  had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                                  > The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the
                                  small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed
                                  the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and
                                  hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to
                                  other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at
                                  peace"!
                                  > What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the
                                  supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not
                                  actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they
                                  obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied
                                  threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate
                                  sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by
                                  the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could
                                  then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.
                                  >
                                  > YiS,
                                  > Matthew Baker.
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