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Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......

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  • Labhaoise O'Beachain
    Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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      Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....

      --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:

      > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
      > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
      > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
      > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
      > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
    • Labhaoise O'Beachain
      Toss in life in general, you know mundane stuff and that sounds about right.... I haven t had a chance to pull together garb, me or the kids either.... I
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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        Toss in life in general, you know mundane stuff and that sounds about
        right.... I haven't had a chance to pull together garb, me or the
        kids either.... I ripped the seams out of two linen dresses and a
        couple of wool skirts for fabric for the kids and had to start
        packing my life up (AGAIN!) I know that Golden Key exists, but I and
        they do not seem to be able to match up times.... AND I work with
        some of these people~

        I have been to a couple of "undress" gatherings and I would like to
        pull out my 'broideries and go to a practice...

        So, I am as tied up as the old hands...
        Labhaoise

        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello All;
        >
        > To preface, this is just the newcomers area - anyone who wants to
        > defend SCA is missing the point, I am not asking for that, this is
        > just to help us newbies with the trials and tribulations of fiting
        > into SCA... So please NO Offense is meant to anyone anywhere
        > anyhow...
        > But I do know that others share these feelings too.
        >
        > In a kingdom, a newbie, of course...While lots has been happening
        > with the established groups nothing seems to be happening for
        > newbies...At least until after 12th Night.
        >
        > I guess this is biggest celebration of the year and everyone but
        > everyone is doing something special for it.
        >
        > Personally, I haven't got a clue and obviously from the various
        > responses (polite but firm of) "Know you are new" "Would love to
        > help with [pick a topic]but can't until after 12th Night"
        > Even have contacted some guilds but lots of out of date stuff
        there;
        > so have worked on Heraldry, research, clothing to keep myself out
        of
        > trouble...Hmmmmm...
        > Anyone else going through some of this???
        >
      • Elizabeth Cember
        I know many many people who do not have anything other than the SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless you re trying to argue that
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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          I know many many people who do not have anything other than the SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless you're trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit too encompassing for it to really work in that context.

          Elspeth

          I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
          I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...>
          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......













          Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....



          --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:



          > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic

          > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the

          > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),

          > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit

          > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at

          > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29














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        • sidhemaiden
          In this instance it is a capitol C as she is refering particularly to the Roman Catholic Church and its festival calendar.
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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            In this instance it is a capitol C as she is refering particularly to
            the Roman Catholic Church and its festival calendar.


            --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
            <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
            >
            > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
          • tasuil
            hey, don t be like that...
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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              hey, don't be like that...
              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
              <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
              >
              > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
              >
              > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@> wrote:
              >
              > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
              > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
              > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
              > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
              > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
              >
            • tasuil
              Again-I do understand that people are busy no defense of your time is needed this is just an open-forum. But I did like your idea about the linens and redoing.
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                Again-I do understand that people are busy no defense of your time
                is needed this is just an open-forum. But I did like your idea about
                the linens and redoing.
                Thanks


                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
                <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                >
                > Toss in life in general, you know mundane stuff and that sounds
                about
                > right.... I haven't had a chance to pull together garb, me or the
                > kids either.... I ripped the seams out of two linen dresses and a
                > couple of wool skirts for fabric for the kids and had to start
                > packing my life up (AGAIN!) I know that Golden Key exists, but I
                and
                > they do not seem to be able to match up times.... AND I work with
                > some of these people~
                >
                > I have been to a couple of "undress" gatherings and I would like
                to
                > pull out my 'broideries and go to a practice...
                >
                > So, I am as tied up as the old hands...
                > Labhaoise
                >
                > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello All;
                > >
                > > To preface, this is just the newcomers area - anyone who wants
                to
                > > defend SCA is missing the point, I am not asking for that, this
                is
                > > just to help us newbies with the trials and tribulations of
                fiting
                > > into SCA... So please NO Offense is meant to anyone anywhere
                > > anyhow...
                > > But I do know that others share these feelings too.
                > >
                > > In a kingdom, a newbie, of course...While lots has been
                happening
                > > with the established groups nothing seems to be happening for
                > > newbies...At least until after 12th Night.
                > >
                > > I guess this is biggest celebration of the year and everyone but
                > > everyone is doing something special for it.
                > >
                > > Personally, I haven't got a clue and obviously from the various
                > > responses (polite but firm of) "Know you are new" "Would love to
                > > help with [pick a topic]but can't until after 12th Night"
                > > Even have contacted some guilds but lots of out of date stuff
                > there;
                > > so have worked on Heraldry, research, clothing to keep myself
                out
                > of
                > > trouble...Hmmmmm...
                > > Anyone else going through some of this???
                > >
                >
              • tasuil
                Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling correction not a philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint. ... SCA version of 12th night on their
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                  Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling correction not a
                  philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.


                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Cember
                  <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the
                  SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless you're
                  trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of
                  Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit
                  too encompassing for it to really work in that context.
                  >
                  > Elspeth
                  >
                  > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
                  things;
                  > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...>
                  > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                  >
                  > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                  >
                  > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                  >
                  > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                  >
                  > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                  >
                  > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • tasuil
                  Lovely but I am not at that detail - thanks ... to
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                    Lovely but I am not at that detail - thanks

                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "sidhemaiden" <sidhemaiden@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > In this instance it is a capitol C as she is refering particularly
                    to
                    > the Roman Catholic Church and its festival calendar.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
                    > <labhaoise_obeachain@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                    >
                  • Elizabeth Cember
                    If you change it to a small c, it becomes catholic meaning universal it s a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic Church which is
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                      If you change it to a small c, it becomes "catholic" meaning "universal" it's a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic Church which is capitalized. Therefore the spelling correction is also a correction of meaning.

                      It's like:
                      A: Blueberries are yummy.
                      B: I think you mean raspberries.

                      Verses:
                      A: Bleuberries are yummy.
                      B: I think you mean blueberries.

                      Sorry, I've been playing that freerice.com game and doing a lot of vocab thinking lately.

                      Elspeth

                      I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
                      I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: tasuil <tasuil@...>
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:25:59 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......













                      Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling correction not a

                      philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.



                      --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Elizabeth Cember

                      <sapphire_chan@ ...> wrote:

                      >

                      > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the

                      SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless you're

                      trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of

                      Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit

                      too encompassing for it to really work in that context.

                      >

                      > Elspeth

                      >

                      > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful

                      things;

                      > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.

                      >

                      > ----- Original Message ----

                      > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachai n@...>

                      > To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com

                      > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM

                      > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>

                      wrote:

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic

                      >

                      > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the

                      >

                      > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),

                      >

                      > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit

                      >

                      > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at

                      >

                      > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

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                    • tasuil
                      So besides the spelling - do you have anything to add about 12th Night? ... meaning universal it s a different word than Catholic as in the Roman Catholic
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        So besides the spelling - do you have anything to add about 12th
                        Night?



                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Cember
                        <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If you change it to a small c, it becomes "catholic"
                        meaning "universal" it's a different word than Catholic as in the
                        Roman Catholic Church which is capitalized. Therefore the spelling
                        correction is also a correction of meaning.
                        >
                        > It's like:
                        > A: Blueberries are yummy.
                        > B: I think you mean raspberries.
                        >
                        > Verses:
                        > A: Bleuberries are yummy.
                        > B: I think you mean blueberries.
                        >
                        > Sorry, I've been playing that freerice.com game and doing a lot of
                        vocab thinking lately.
                        >
                        > Elspeth
                        >
                        > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
                        things;
                        > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: tasuil <tasuil@...>
                        > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:25:59 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Elspeth - I believe this was just a spelling
                        correction not a
                        >
                        > philosophical correction, but thanks for the viewpoint.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Elizabeth Cember
                        >
                        > <sapphire_chan@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I know many many people who do not have anything other than the
                        >
                        > SCA version of 12th night on their festive calendars. Unless
                        you're
                        >
                        > trying to argue that Epiphany is universal to all forms of
                        >
                        > Christianity and not just Catholicism? Small c catholic is a bit
                        >
                        > too encompassing for it to really work in that context.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Elspeth
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful
                        >
                        > things;
                        >
                        > > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > ----- Original Message ----
                        >
                        > > From: Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachai n@...>
                        >
                        > > To: scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com
                        >
                        > > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:09:22 PM
                        >
                        > > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] HMMM......
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > --- In scanewcomers@ yahoogroups. com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@>
                        >
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the
                        Catholic
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the
                        song),
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Twelfth_Night_ %28holiday% 29
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > <!--
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                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                        >
                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
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                        > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                      • Sara L Uckelman
                        ... Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know. -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                          Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                          > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                          > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                          > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                          > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                          > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                          >
                          > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....

                          Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.

                          -Aryanhwy


                          --
                          vita sine literis mors est
                          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
                        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                          In a message dated 11/2/2007 6:32:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, liana@ellipsis.cx writes:
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                            In a message dated 11/2/2007 6:32:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                            liana@... writes:

                            <<Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.>>

                            Episcopalians do, to a certain extent. The church that I go to does a very
                            elaborate 12th night pageant, 3 performances, on the Sunday closest to the
                            actual date of 12th night most years. It involves over 100 cast members,
                            including some who fly back from all sorts of places to perform their traditional
                            roles. One of the guys who comes back every year is a retired Marine general
                            and he gets dolled up in an Elizabeth doublet, trunk hose and tights every
                            year...My hubby and another local Scadian put on their armor and act as door
                            guards and clank around through the sanctuary a few times before the
                            performance.

                            We aren't doing it this year though. We take a break every 7 years - why
                            seven, I do not know. But as the priest pointed out, it's a good year to take
                            a break since Easter is so incredibly early this year - it's something like
                            March 22.


                            Brangwayna Morgan
                            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                            Lancaster, PA



                            ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                            like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large C Catholic is
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                              like what? I merely meant that this is a traditional christian (stolen
                              most like) celebration, not an RC pr PC celebration specifically. Large
                              C Catholic is used to refer to RC (Roman Catholic) and small c refers
                              to the larger christian church....

                              As for our purposes, one would celebrate in the tradition of the
                              period ... most likely in the Western European tradition. In the
                              medival period and into the renessance, christians in Europe held to
                              the (Roman) Catholic traditions under the Pope or Bishop of Rome.

                              Eastern Europe and into Asia predominantly fell into a catholic
                              traditon that grew into Russian Catholics, Polish Catholics, Eastern
                              Orothodox, etc who followed the lead of the Bishops at Constantinople.
                              These groups mostly did NOT celebrate Twelfth Night or the Feast of the
                              Three Kings.

                              I'm afraid I've traveled rather far afield, but while I'm here Epiphany
                              is the celebration of the Manifestaion of Christ(go figure, how those
                              got together) but epiphany is the "Ah Hah" moment that changes
                              vision.... (well that makes sense, Christ appears(manifests), we all go
                              AH HAH, realizing the way...)
                              Labhaoise

                              PS I NEVER correct other's spelling, MINE is TOO bad.
                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > hey, don't be like that...
                              > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
                              > <labhaoise_obeachain@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                              > >
                              > > --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                              > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                              > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                              > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                              > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                              > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                              > >
                              >
                            • Susan Farmer
                              ... Thanks! 12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song 12 days of Christmas ? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day -- the 12th
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                                --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "tasuil" <tasuil@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Jerusha;
                                > Thank you for responding, actually would you be able to give me some
                                > links on 12th Night and why it is important? Just understanding
                                > would really help me out!!
                                > Congrats on the new job too!!!
                                >

                                Thanks!

                                12th night is the end of the Christmas Holiday. You know the song "12
                                days of Christmas"? The first day of Christmas is Christmas Day --
                                the 12th day of Christmas is 12th night -- it's the day according to
                                Tradition that the Wise Men brought gifts to the Christ Child.

                                jerusha
                              • Susan Farmer
                                ... IMO it s Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don t do 12th night. Of course, we don t do Lent or Advent either. jerusha
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
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                                  --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Quoth "Labhaoise O'Beachain":
                                  > > > Historically, 12th Night was a major celebration in the Catholic
                                  > > > festival calendar; it's the 12th night after Christmas (the
                                  > > > intervening days being the 12 Days of Christmas, as in the song),
                                  > > > and traditionally the day that the three wise men came to visit
                                  > > > Jesus. You can read more about the history of the holiday at
                                  > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Night_%28holiday%29
                                  > >
                                  > > Psst, that is small C, catholic not large.....
                                  >
                                  > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
                                  >

                                  IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
                                  course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.

                                  jerusha
                                • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                                  Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are others. Some do, some don t, and within each sect there are differences as well.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                    Baptists are one sect of Protestants, Methodists and Episcopalians are
                                    others. Some do, some don't, and within each sect there are differences
                                    as well.

                                    Baptists for example split from the Catholic church over the faith
                                    point of being saved by immersion(the dipped or sprinkled arguement).
                                    Like many of the other Protestants the protest in question was the
                                    waste, formality, and classism with in the Catholic (yes, RC) church;
                                    therefore in their reforms many of the celebrations were removed from
                                    the calendar they used.

                                    Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglecans(Episcopalians
                                    included) were launched in the time of Henry VII(not just because of
                                    his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a beleif that the
                                    pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric(English);
                                    therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
                                    reasons.

                                    Aditionally many of the celebrations of the Church, Protestant,
                                    Catholic, Orthodox, etc is based in what the people they were serving
                                    celebrated at the time they were christianized. Twelfth Night is from
                                    the British Isles predominantly and Feast of the Three Kings from the
                                    area around the Meditaranian, same basic dates, same "historical" event
                                    different names... but basically in both cases a celebration in waste
                                    and excess to celebrate surviving the worst of the Winter season.
                                    Labhaoise

                                    PS someone with more religious training than I please step in, I am
                                    chasing facts around the back of my brain....

                                    --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@...> wrote:
                                    > > Do Protestants also celebrate 12th Night? That I did not know.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > IMO it's Catholic (large C) -- Baptists don't do 12th night. Of
                                    > course, we don't do Lent or Advent either.
                                    >
                                    > jerusha
                                    >
                                  • julian wilson
                                    Labhaoise O Beachain wrote: MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                      Labhaoise O'Beachain <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                                      MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED
                                      Other Protestants separated for other reasons, Anglicans (Episcopalians
                                      included) were launched in the time of Henry VII (not just because of
                                      his wives by the way). The feeling there was more of a belief that the
                                      pomp, ceremony, classism, etc should be Anglocentric (English);
                                      therefore they did not remove things from the calendar for the same
                                      reasons.
                                      MUCH GOOD STUFF SNIPPED


                                      .



                                      COMMENT
                                      Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why various Christian sects separated from the original "one True [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.

                                      Allow me please one small but important historical correction - the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29 years prior to the split with Rome.
                                      It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the founding of The Church of England.
                                      And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed" Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the Schism.
                                      The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, - since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain - had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                                      The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at peace"!
                                      What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.

                                      YiS,
                                      Matthew Baker.







                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                                      Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW! ... various Christian sects separated from the original one True [Christian] Church - the Church of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
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                                        Huzzah, I knew there was someone out there who KNEW!

                                        --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > COMMENT
                                        > Congratulations on a very informative thumbnail sketch of why
                                        various Christian sects separated from the original "one True
                                        [Christian] Church" - the Church of Rome.
                                        >
                                        > Allow me please one small but important historical correction -
                                        the English King Henry VII only married once, and died in 1509, - 29
                                        years prior to the split with Rome.
                                        > It was his son, King Henry VIII who had 6 wives, and caused the
                                        founding of The Church of England.
                                        > And the Schism [generally dated to 1538] had more to do with the
                                        Papacy playing politics, and interfering in the internal temporal
                                        affairs of Christian countries, - by requiring the "annointed"
                                        Sovereigns of those to acknowledge the overall Primacy of the Papacy
                                        as to a "temporal" Overlord - which was really the cause of the
                                        Schism.
                                        > The refusal to allow Henry VIII to divorce Katharine of Aragon
                                        is now generally accepted as having been - for King Henry - the "last
                                        [political] straw which broke the camel's back", because it had wide-
                                        ranging tactical and strategic military and trading implications, -
                                        since England's traditional continental enemies - France and Spain -
                                        had acknowledged Papal primacy.
                                        > The refusal to sanction the Royal Divorce was merely the
                                        small "overt" reason magnified for public consumption; which allowed
                                        the multitude of other political reasons to remain "covert", and
                                        hence to avoid King Henry's .Government giving serious insult to
                                        other powerful States with whom England was then notionally "at
                                        peace"!
                                        > What insult? The unwritten/unspoken one that the
                                        supposedly "absolute" Monarchs of France/ Spain/ etc. - were not
                                        actually the supreme authorities of their own Realms, because they
                                        obeyed the dictates of the Papacy under several levels of implied
                                        threat - that of "national Excommunication" being the ultimate
                                        sanction, - which might cause a national uprising by
                                        the "commonality" in mortal teroor of their own souls - which could
                                        then lose the Throne to the reigning Royal House.
                                        >
                                        > YiS,
                                        > Matthew Baker.
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