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Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk

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  • Janet
    Be whoever you want to be. You don t have to have fancy garb for court. I have seen all kinds of people in all kinds of garb in court and feast. lol...I mean,
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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      Be whoever you want to be. You don't have to have fancy garb for court. I have seen all kinds of people in all kinds of garb in court and feast. lol...I mean, middle class would wear all the same styles as the upper class, maybe a few years behind on the latest style and made from less expensive fabrics, but it's not like the middle class wore rags anyway, If for some reason, a middle class individual did get called into to court, they would have put on their very best pieces of clothing. Not necessarily anything fancy, just the articles that are the cleanest and in the best condition.

      It is assumed that everyone in the SCA is minor nobility (meaning of noble birth, but no titles...at least not until awarded). This is so everyone can be equal within the society and so people can wear all the pretty fancy things they want to wear. If you should choose to down play your persona some and play a lower class, that is your choice. You ARE allowed to do so. It's just an assumed thing that most people want to wear all the cool fancy stuff and what not. No one will bar you from going to court or feast in middle class garb. If people give you a hard time about playing a middle class persona, then maybe you could tell them that you ran away from your noble family to marry your now dead husband and they have since disowned you because you ran away with him. Just a thought to get rid of the people giving you a hard time.


      ----- Original Message ----

      From: jimmielou111 <jimmielou111@...>

      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 8:28:55 AM

      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk



      Something was brought up to me at my SCA meeting last night that had

      never occured to me. I mentioned to someone that my husband was

      considering a certain kind of persona and was told that only lower

      class folk took that particular job. "So what?" I asked. I was told

      only "gentlefolk" were appropriate personas -- no lower class,

      beggers, etc. I asked why and was told it had something to do with

      court but being such a newcomer I didn't understand what he meant and

      didn't have time to press the matter.

      My persona was to be "middle class", a merchant's widow. Can there be

      no middle class, only upper class? What is the definition of "gentle

      folk"? It seems to me it would be better to have a broad spectrum of

      people to truly represent medieval society. I did ask about pirates

      since I have seen several postings of people who want to be pirates

      and was told most pirate personas are captains and of a higher rank.

      Did I miss something in reading up on SCA? I don't remember ever

      seeing anything mentioned about class and rank. Maybe I just missed it.



      Viviven Hollingsworth








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    • Elizabeth Cember
      What s the difference between a peasant, a merchant and a noble in the SCA? Nothing unless they all behave in a manner which indicates their status. Other
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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        What's the difference between a peasant, a merchant and a noble in the SCA? Nothing unless they all behave in a manner which indicates their status. Other than regalia, clothing does not reflect status in the Society.

        The only way to determine for certain that a person is, in fact, working class instead of just someone who didn't feel like wearing noble-ish clothing that day, is by that person's behavior.

        So, again, go ahead and have whatever persona you wish. When in court, behave according to the standards of your local region.

        Elspeth

        I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
        I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Denise Keppel <dkeppel@...>
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 10:59:41 AM
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk

        Using that logic, why would a 12th century Viking, a
        14th century German, and a 1500 Englishman be in the
        same court? It's a game, it's called playing. It's
        not to be taken that seriously.

        > > Why would a person of merchant class or lower be
        > invited to the great halls of the nobility? That's
        > the basic problem with an exclusively middle/lower
        > class persona. It doesn't actually make sense for
        > them to be at feast (except as servants) or court
        > (except as supplicants) .
        > >
        > > Feel free to have your persona be as you choose,
        > just be flexible enough to pretend to nobility when
        > in a situation that's only for the upper class.
        > >
        > > Elspeth
        >
        > --
        > The heart has reasons which reason does not know.
        > (Blaise Pascal)
        >
        > Be who you are and say what you feel because those
        > who mind don't
        > matter and those who matter don't mind.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Susan Farmer
        ... Really. We don t see that where I play. The barbarians (and pesants) may not be seated on the front row, but they re there -- and in persona. And they
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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          Quoting Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@...>:

          >
          > On 8/2/07, Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          >> Why would a person of merchant class or lower be invited to the
          >> great halls of the nobility? That's the basic problem with an
          >> exclusively middle/lower class persona. It doesn't actually make
          >> sense for them to be at feast (except as servants) or court (except
          >> as supplicants) .
          >>
          >> Feel free to have your persona be as you choose, just be flexible
          >> enough to pretend to nobility when in a situation that's only for
          >> the upper class.
          >>

          Really. We don't see that where I play. The barbarians (and pesants)
          may not be seated on the front row, but they're there -- and in
          "persona." And they get called into court.

          jerusha in Meridies
          -----
          Susan Farmer
          sfarmer@...
          Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
          Division of Science and Math
          http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
        • Elizabeth Cember
          Ah well, so much for my theory that the person was worried about a lack of courtly behavior then. Viviven, I suggest you go up to the person who was hassling
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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            Ah well, so much for my theory that the person was worried about a lack of courtly behavior then. Viviven, I suggest you go up to the person who was hassling you and ask "I just can't seem to find that rule you mentioned, and no one on any of my SCA email lists has heard of it, would you mind awfully telling me where it says that we *have* to be nobility? Thanks!" (Feel free to say it more like a normal person and less like someone who's using excessive politeness as a form of insult. = )

            Elspeth
            (who would just like to clarify that she never intended to imply that clothing had anything to do with this topic)

            I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
            I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Susan Farmer <sfarmer@...>
            To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 2:30:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk

            Quoting Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@ yahoo.com>:

            >
            > On 8/2/07, Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            >> Why would a person of merchant class or lower be invited to the
            >> great halls of the nobility? That's the basic problem with an
            >> exclusively middle/lower class persona. It doesn't actually make
            >> sense for them to be at feast (except as servants) or court (except
            >> as supplicants) .
            >>
            >> Feel free to have your persona be as you choose, just be flexible
            >> enough to pretend to nobility when in a situation that's only for
            >> the upper class.
            >>

            Really. We don't see that where I play. The barbarians (and pesants)
            may not be seated on the front row, but they're there -- and in
            "persona." And they get called into court.

            jerusha in Meridies
            -----
            Susan Farmer
            sfarmer@goldsword. com
            Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
            Division of Science and Math
            http://www.goldswor d.com/sfarmer/ Trillium/






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          • Robert Brown
            In the sca you are considered to be gentry as a matter of custom. That being said the middle ages was populated by starving gentry, working gentry, and gentry
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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              In the sca you are considered to be gentry as a matter of custom. That being said the middle ages was populated by starving gentry, working gentry, and gentry that had too much money. Gentry is just an acknowledgment of birth. I am the third cousin twice removed from the duke's third wife's uncle. I am part of the noble family.
              Court. Most courts are held at a location, for the location, i.e. the Barony of the Elden Hills, Shire of Brad Leah, etc. Even with their Majesties in attendance, they are holding it for that location, thus even the poor locals could claim right to be there. Especially in earlier period if your persona would have had a village chief/elder, or your city/state a king.
              The only time this would be otherwise would perhaps be during Kingdom level Courts such as Crown or Coronation but...<wait for it>...since a good many peasants and working class stiffs have won crown and been coronated....if they're good enough to be there...so are you.
              Every kingdom has a knight, duke, etc. whose persona is based upon a simple peasant, a poor eighth son, or wandering gypsy making good (by extension this also means working class widows have been queen somewhere). I would suggest finding the name of one of these "not so classy" people, and next time you're confronted..."Really? Have you Told Count so and so? Boy will he be embarrassed."

              Gorm


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            • Kristine Elliott
              ... I agree with you on all but that last thought. Just tell them you don t have any respect for snobs, so they should go do something useful. That s the
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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                On 8/2/07, Janet <HI_it_is_me@...> wrote:
                >
                > Be whoever you want to be. You don't have to have fancy garb for court. I have seen all kinds of people in all kinds of garb in court and feast. lol...I mean, middle class would wear all the same styles as the upper class, maybe a few years behind on the latest style and made from less expensive fabrics, but it's not like the middle class wore rags anyway, If for some reason, a middle class individual did get called into to court, they would have put on their very best pieces of clothing. Not necessarily anything fancy, just the articles that are the cleanest and in the best condition.
                >
                > It is assumed that everyone in the SCA is minor nobility (meaning of noble birth, but no titles...at least not until awarded). This is so everyone can be equal within the society and so people can wear all the pretty fancy things they want to wear. If you should choose to down play your persona some and play a lower class, that is your choice. You ARE allowed to do so. It's just an assumed thing that most people want to wear all the cool fancy stuff and what not. No one will bar you from going to court or feast in middle class garb. If people give you a hard time about playing a middle class persona, then maybe you could tell them that you ran away from your noble family to marry your now dead husband and they have since disowned you because you ran away with him. Just a thought to get rid of the people giving you a hard time.


                I agree with you on all but that last thought. Just tell them you
                don't have any respect for snobs, so they should go do something
                useful. That's the polite version of what I would say.

                Scolastica
                --
                http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

                If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least teach
                'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
              • Elizabeth Cember
                The main difference is that SCAdian alt-holics tend to be into sewing. Elspeth who was suddenly struck by the thought has anyone ever ran a SCA rpg? Not
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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                  The main difference is that SCAdian alt-holics tend to be into sewing.

                  Elspeth
                  who was suddenly struck by the thought "has anyone ever ran a SCA rpg? Not based off period situations, but actually based on being in the SCA?" and whose brain hurts now.

                  I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
                  I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Larry <lrf@...>
                  To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 4:35:34 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk

                  WOW, and I thought "Alts" were only for video games...
                  LOL

                  Ahnuld the Woodsman

                  --- Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
                  wrote:

                  > Viviven Hollingsworth wrote:
                  > > I was told only "gentlefolk" were appropriate
                  > personas -- no lower
                  > > class, beggers, etc.. . .Did I miss something in
                  > reading up on SCA? I
                  > > don't remember ever
                  > > seeing anything mentioned about class and rank.. .
                  > .
                  >
                  > Persona is an entirely personal matter. You can
                  > choose any persona you
                  > like, or no persona at all.
                  >
                  > When we say, "Everyone in the S.C.A. is assumed to
                  > be of gentle birth,"
                  > what we mean is that nobody is banned from
                  > activities or positions that
                  > would, in period, only have been available to those
                  > of gentle birth.
                  > In many re-enactment and living history groups,
                  > almost everybody is
                  > designated as lower-class, and must dress and act
                  > accordingly. This
                  > allows the group's re-enactments or displays to
                  > accurately reflect the
                  > times and events they are meant to. But it means
                  > that only certain
                  > people can, for instance, wear silk, or use chain
                  > mail, or have a metal
                  > cup to drink from. In some of these groups, one can
                  > choose which class
                  > to portray. In others, everybody starts off as
                  > lower-class, until
                  > somebody upper-class decides to quit there's no
                  > opportunity to change
                  > (because there can be only one leader for every
                  > band), and one can
                  > switch from lower- to upper-class only by taking on
                  > a whole new persona
                  > (because, in most periods of European history,
                  > peasants simply did not
                  > become nobles). That's not the way the Society has
                  > chosen to go. A
                  > rank newbie is entitled to dress in satin and lace,
                  > if that's what she
                  > wants, and someone who spends most of her time at
                  > events washing dishes
                  > and re-stocking toilet paper may be elevated to the
                  > peerage.
                  >
                  > The Society is, of course, built around activities
                  > in which serfs and
                  > burghers didn't engage, like tournaments and courts
                  > of honor. This is
                  > expressly acknowledged in the introduction to the
                  > S.C.A. Organizational
                  > Handbook <http://sca.org/ docs/govdocs. pdf> (the
                  > governing documents of
                  > the Society, which you should read, if you haven't
                  > already), where is
                  > writ:
                  >
                  > > We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts
                  > where members dress
                  > > in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and
                  > Renaissance, and
                  > > participate in activities based on the civil and
                  > martial skills of the
                  > > period. These activities recreate aspects of the
                  > life and culture of
                  > > the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE.
                  > The dress, pastimes,
                  > > and above all the chivalric ideals of the period
                  > serve to unify our
                  > > events and activities.
                  >
                  > Corpora (also part of the Organizational Handbook)
                  > states:
                  >
                  > > The term �Society event� refers to tournaments,
                  > feasts, and other
                  > > activities whereby participants can display the
                  > results of their
                  > > researches into the culture and technology of the
                  > period in an
                  > > environment which evokes the atmosphere of the
                  > pre-17th century
                  > > European Middle Ages and Renaissance.
                  >
                  > People have different ideas about how much care
                  > should be taken in the
                  > evocation of said atmosphere. Many feel that one
                  > detracts from it by,
                  > say, coming into court dressed as a servant when
                  > being called to do
                  > something a servant could never do in period, or
                  > serving feast wearing
                  > something only a high-ranking noble could afford.
                  > Some sidestep the
                  > issue by changing the "class" of their clothing to
                  > suit the occasion.
                  > Others take on alternate personae when it's time to
                  > do something their
                  > primary personae wouldn't. Whether that's generally
                  > expected or just
                  > something the more persona-conscious do for their
                  > own peace of mind
                  > varies from area to area. Only somebody in your own
                  > can tell you how
                  > it's viewed there.
                  >
                  > There are also some people in the Society who take
                  > persona play very
                  > seriously and who feel that (1) behaving the way
                  > nobles were, in
                  > period, expected to behave is no fun, (2) having a
                  > "medieval" or
                  > "Renaissance" society with no servants, farmers,
                  > tradesmen, or
                  > merchants is ridiculous on its face, and/or (3)
                  > there are tasks that
                  > must be performed at every event that one of "gentle
                  > birth" cannot
                  > perform without breaking persona, so the only way to
                  > maintain a
                  > medieval or Renaissance atmosphere and get them done
                  > is for someone to
                  > be "lower-class" . Many of them have lower- or
                  > middle-class primary or
                  > alternate personae. We have a couple of peers in
                  > our barony who "never
                  > come to events", but often "send their servants"
                  > (i.e., show up under
                  > another name, dressed as lower-class, and have a
                  > high old time). Our
                  > Baron (who holds our kingdom's highest honor for
                  > persona play, himself)
                  > typically goes along with the game. One might, for
                  > example, be given
                  > an award for service, but have the usual, "I've seen
                  > him helping out in
                  > the kitchen at every event for the past three years.
                  > . .," explanation
                  > rephrased to something like, "He's sent his servants
                  > to work in the
                  > kitchen. . .." Similarly, some members of our
                  > populace attribute their
                  > A&S efforts to "employees", offering statements
                  > like, "I'm having a
                  > dress made in the loveliest shade of crimson. My
                  > seamstress is just
                  > working on the beading of the sleeves now."
                  >
                  > Alternate, lower-class personae are also popular
                  > tools for those who'd
                  > like to occasionally behave outrageously, without
                  > affecting their
                  > primary personae's reputations. There's a local
                  > Laurel who bears a
                  > remarkable resemblance to a certain disreputable
                  > character who shows up
                  > from time to time selling false letters patent or
                  > trading in debased
                  > coins. Nobody knows the fellow's name, and if you
                  > address him as
                  > "m'lord" he chortles and says something like, "Oh, I
                  > ain't no lord, me!
                  > Mercy! What a thought! 'Lord,' she says!" A
                  > friend of mine has an
                  > alternate persona that was recently called into
                  > court, chastised for
                  > her loose behavior (running around in public at a
                  > past event in her
                  > shift), accused of theft (of something belonging to
                  > her primary
                  > persona), and ordered to return to service with her
                  > former mistress
                  > (said primary persona). Her mistress' husband came
                  > in to take charge
                  > of her, and assured the Baron she'd be watched
                  > closely and given enough
                  > work to keep her out of trouble. The servant only
                  > ever shows up at
                  > local revels, flirts with all the men, and complains
                  > about how uptight
                  > her mistress is. She has everybody laughing every
                  > time she's around,
                  > but she's definitely not the kind of person you'd
                  > want representing the
                  > Barony when, say, the Queen was present.
                  >
                  > What you want to remember is that, if you have a
                  > real, fully-developed
                  > persona, your behavior will be determined by your
                  > social position. Our
                  > patent-selling commoner slips away quietly when
                  > members of the guard
                  > are about, for example, while his Laurel
                  > doppelg�nger wouldn't hesitate
                  > to send one of them on an errand.
                  >
                  > If you really just want a loose back-story, that's
                  > allowed, too. In
                  > the S.C.A. even merchants can speak to nobles
                  > without first being
                  > spoken to by them, for instance, even if they
                  > wouldn't have dared in
                  > the periods to which they dress.
                  >
                  >
                  > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                  > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                  > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                  > <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >






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                • Jibra'il 'Attar.
                  ... Hey! I resemble that remark! *heh* And actually...one of my alternate personas came about because of an A&S craft I got into that didn t fit with my
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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                    Elspeth:
                    > The main difference is that SCAdian alt-holics tend to be into sewing.

                    Hey! I resemble that remark! *heh*

                    And actually...one of my alternate personas came about because of an
                    A&S craft I got into that didn't fit with my primary persona at the
                    time.


                    > who was suddenly struck by the thought "has anyone ever ran a SCA rpg? Not based off period situations, but actually based on being in the SCA?" and whose brain hurts now.

                    *rolls 3 d6's*
                    *botches save roll*

                    Now what....? *heh*


                    Jibra'il `Attar
                    aka: Giudo di Niccolo Brunelleschi
                    aka: Mishka Lamanov
                    aka: Jedediah Glasmon
                    aka: Decimus Saturius Praeconinus
                  • Pardus
                    Let s scope out an SCA MMORPG for XBOX online :P
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
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                      Let's scope out an SCA MMORPG for XBOX online :P

                      Elizabeth Cember wrote:
                      > The main difference is that SCAdian alt-holics tend to be into sewing.
                      >
                      > Elspeth
                      > who was suddenly struck by the thought "has anyone ever ran a SCA rpg? Not based off period situations, but actually based on being in the SCA?" and whose brain hurts now.
                      >
                      > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
                      > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Larry <lrf@...>
                      > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 4:35:34 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk
                      >
                      > WOW, and I thought "Alts" were only for video games...
                      > LOL
                      >
                      > Ahnuld the Woodsman
                      >
                      > --- Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>Viviven Hollingsworth wrote:
                      >>
                      >>>I was told only "gentlefolk" were appropriate
                      >>
                      >>personas -- no lower
                      >>
                      >>>class, beggers, etc.. . .Did I miss something in
                      >>
                      >>reading up on SCA? I
                      >>
                      >>>don't remember ever
                      >>>seeing anything mentioned about class and rank.. .
                      >>
                      >>.
                      >>
                      >>Persona is an entirely personal matter. You can
                      >>choose any persona you
                      >>like, or no persona at all.
                      >>
                      >>When we say, "Everyone in the S.C.A. is assumed to
                      >>be of gentle birth,"
                      >>what we mean is that nobody is banned from
                      >>activities or positions that
                      >>would, in period, only have been available to those
                      >>of gentle birth.
                      >>In many re-enactment and living history groups,
                      >>almost everybody is
                      >>designated as lower-class, and must dress and act
                      >>accordingly. This
                      >>allows the group's re-enactments or displays to
                      >>accurately reflect the
                      >>times and events they are meant to. But it means
                      >>that only certain
                      >>people can, for instance, wear silk, or use chain
                      >>mail, or have a metal
                      >>cup to drink from. In some of these groups, one can
                      >>choose which class
                      >>to portray. In others, everybody starts off as
                      >>lower-class, until
                      >>somebody upper-class decides to quit there's no
                      >>opportunity to change
                      >>(because there can be only one leader for every
                      >>band), and one can
                      >>switch from lower- to upper-class only by taking on
                      >>a whole new persona
                      >>(because, in most periods of European history,
                      >>peasants simply did not
                      >>become nobles). That's not the way the Society has
                      >>chosen to go. A
                      >>rank newbie is entitled to dress in satin and lace,
                      >>if that's what she
                      >>wants, and someone who spends most of her time at
                      >>events washing dishes
                      >>and re-stocking toilet paper may be elevated to the
                      >>peerage.
                      >>
                      >>The Society is, of course, built around activities
                      >>in which serfs and
                      >>burghers didn't engage, like tournaments and courts
                      >>of honor. This is
                      >>expressly acknowledged in the introduction to the
                      >>S.C.A. Organizational
                      >>Handbook <http://sca.org/ docs/govdocs. pdf> (the
                      >>governing documents of
                      >>the Society, which you should read, if you haven't
                      >>already), where is
                      >>writ:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts
                      >>
                      >>where members dress
                      >>
                      >>>in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and
                      >>
                      >>Renaissance, and
                      >>
                      >>>participate in activities based on the civil and
                      >>
                      >>martial skills of the
                      >>
                      >>>period. These activities recreate aspects of the
                      >>
                      >>life and culture of
                      >>
                      >>>the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE.
                      >>
                      >>The dress, pastimes,
                      >>
                      >>>and above all the chivalric ideals of the period
                      >>
                      >>serve to unify our
                      >>
                      >>>events and activities.
                      >>
                      >>Corpora (also part of the Organizational Handbook)
                      >>states:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>The term “Society event” refers to tournaments,
                      >>
                      >>feasts, and other
                      >>
                      >>>activities whereby participants can display the
                      >>
                      >>results of their
                      >>
                      >>>researches into the culture and technology of the
                      >>
                      >>period in an
                      >>
                      >>>environment which evokes the atmosphere of the
                      >>
                      >>pre-17th century
                      >>
                      >>>European Middle Ages and Renaissance.
                      >>
                      >>People have different ideas about how much care
                      >>should be taken in the
                      >>evocation of said atmosphere. Many feel that one
                      >>detracts from it by,
                      >>say, coming into court dressed as a servant when
                      >>being called to do
                      >>something a servant could never do in period, or
                      >>serving feast wearing
                      >>something only a high-ranking noble could afford.
                      >>Some sidestep the
                      >>issue by changing the "class" of their clothing to
                      >>suit the occasion.
                      >>Others take on alternate personae when it's time to
                      >>do something their
                      >>primary personae wouldn't. Whether that's generally
                      >>expected or just
                      >>something the more persona-conscious do for their
                      >>own peace of mind
                      >>varies from area to area. Only somebody in your own
                      >>can tell you how
                      >>it's viewed there.
                      >>
                      >>There are also some people in the Society who take
                      >>persona play very
                      >>seriously and who feel that (1) behaving the way
                      >>nobles were, in
                      >>period, expected to behave is no fun, (2) having a
                      >>"medieval" or
                      >>"Renaissance" society with no servants, farmers,
                      >>tradesmen, or
                      >>merchants is ridiculous on its face, and/or (3)
                      >>there are tasks that
                      >>must be performed at every event that one of "gentle
                      >>birth" cannot
                      >>perform without breaking persona, so the only way to
                      >>maintain a
                      >>medieval or Renaissance atmosphere and get them done
                      >>is for someone to
                      >>be "lower-class" . Many of them have lower- or
                      >>middle-class primary or
                      >>alternate personae. We have a couple of peers in
                      >>our barony who "never
                      >>come to events", but often "send their servants"
                      >>(i.e., show up under
                      >>another name, dressed as lower-class, and have a
                      >>high old time). Our
                      >>Baron (who holds our kingdom's highest honor for
                      >>persona play, himself)
                      >>typically goes along with the game. One might, for
                      >>example, be given
                      >>an award for service, but have the usual, "I've seen
                      >>him helping out in
                      >>the kitchen at every event for the past three years.
                      >>. .," explanation
                      >>rephrased to something like, "He's sent his servants
                      >>to work in the
                      >>kitchen. . .." Similarly, some members of our
                      >>populace attribute their
                      >>A&S efforts to "employees", offering statements
                      >>like, "I'm having a
                      >>dress made in the loveliest shade of crimson. My
                      >>seamstress is just
                      >>working on the beading of the sleeves now."
                      >>
                      >>Alternate, lower-class personae are also popular
                      >>tools for those who'd
                      >>like to occasionally behave outrageously, without
                      >>affecting their
                      >>primary personae's reputations. There's a local
                      >>Laurel who bears a
                      >>remarkable resemblance to a certain disreputable
                      >>character who shows up
                      >>from time to time selling false letters patent or
                      >>trading in debased
                      >>coins. Nobody knows the fellow's name, and if you
                      >>address him as
                      >>"m'lord" he chortles and says something like, "Oh, I
                      >>ain't no lord, me!
                      >>Mercy! What a thought! 'Lord,' she says!" A
                      >>friend of mine has an
                      >>alternate persona that was recently called into
                      >>court, chastised for
                      >>her loose behavior (running around in public at a
                      >>past event in her
                      >>shift), accused of theft (of something belonging to
                      >>her primary
                      >>persona), and ordered to return to service with her
                      >>former mistress
                      >>(said primary persona). Her mistress' husband came
                      >>in to take charge
                      >>of her, and assured the Baron she'd be watched
                      >>closely and given enough
                      >>work to keep her out of trouble. The servant only
                      >>ever shows up at
                      >>local revels, flirts with all the men, and complains
                      >>about how uptight
                      >>her mistress is. She has everybody laughing every
                      >>time she's around,
                      >>but she's definitely not the kind of person you'd
                      >>want representing the
                      >>Barony when, say, the Queen was present.
                      >>
                      >>What you want to remember is that, if you have a
                      >>real, fully-developed
                      >>persona, your behavior will be determined by your
                      >>social position. Our
                      >>patent-selling commoner slips away quietly when
                      >>members of the guard
                      >>are about, for example, while his Laurel
                      >>doppelgänger wouldn't hesitate
                      >>to send one of them on an errand.
                      >>
                      >>If you really just want a loose back-story, that's
                      >>allowed, too. In
                      >>the S.C.A. even merchants can speak to nobles
                      >>without first being
                      >>spoken to by them, for instance, even if they
                      >>wouldn't have dared in
                      >>the periods to which they dress.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                      >>Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                      >>Kingdom of Ansteorra
                      >><mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      > ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                    • Elizabeth Cember
                      Actually, I was thinking tabletop--despite the start to this extreme tangent. Elspeth who is now contemplating bringing several more notebooks to Pennsic--just
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Actually, I was thinking tabletop--despite the start to this extreme tangent.

                        Elspeth
                        who is now contemplating bringing several more notebooks to Pennsic--just in case.

                        I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
                        I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.



                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Pardus <Shadocat@...>
                        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 5:02:33 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk


                        Let's scope out an SCA MMORPG for XBOX online :P

                        Elizabeth Cember wrote:
                        > The main difference is that SCAdian alt-holics tend to be into sewing.
                        >
                        > Elspeth
                        > who was suddenly struck by the thought "has anyone ever ran a SCA rpg? Not based off period situations, but actually based on being in the SCA?" and whose brain hurts now.
                        >
                        > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with beautiful things;
                        > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in all things.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Larry <lrf@...>
                        > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 4:35:34 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk
                        >
                        > WOW, and I thought "Alts" were only for video games...
                        > LOL
                        >
                        > Ahnuld the Woodsman
                        >
                        > --- Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>Viviven Hollingsworth wrote:
                        >>
                        >>>I was told only "gentlefolk" were appropriate
                        >>
                        >>personas -- no lower
                        >>
                        >>>class, beggers, etc.. . .Did I miss something in
                        >>
                        >>reading up on SCA? I
                        >>
                        >>>don't remember ever
                        >>>seeing anything mentioned about class and rank.. .
                        >>
                        >>.
                        >>
                        >>Persona is an entirely personal matter. You can
                        >>choose any persona you
                        >>like, or no persona at all.
                        >>
                        >>When we say, "Everyone in the S.C.A. is assumed to
                        >>be of gentle birth,"
                        >>what we mean is that nobody is banned from
                        >>activities or positions that
                        >>would, in period, only have been available to those
                        >>of gentle birth.
                        >>In many re-enactment and living history groups,
                        >>almost everybody is
                        >>designated as lower-class, and must dress and act
                        >>accordingly. This
                        >>allows the group's re-enactments or displays to
                        >>accurately reflect the
                        >>times and events they are meant to. But it means
                        >>that only certain
                        >>people can, for instance, wear silk, or use chain
                        >>mail, or have a metal
                        >>cup to drink from. In some of these groups, one can
                        >>choose which class
                        >>to portray. In others, everybody starts off as
                        >>lower-class, until
                        >>somebody upper-class decides to quit there's no
                        >>opportunity to change
                        >>(because there can be only one leader for every
                        >>band), and one can
                        >>switch from lower- to upper-class only by taking on
                        >>a whole new persona
                        >>(because, in most periods of European history,
                        >>peasants simply did not
                        >>become nobles). That's not the way the Society has
                        >>chosen to go. A
                        >>rank newbie is entitled to dress in satin and lace,
                        >>if that's what she
                        >>wants, and someone who spends most of her time at
                        >>events washing dishes
                        >>and re-stocking toilet paper may be elevated to the
                        >>peerage.
                        >>
                        >>The Society is, of course, built around activities
                        >>in which serfs and
                        >>burghers didn't engage, like tournaments and courts
                        >>of honor. This is
                        >>expressly acknowledged in the introduction to the
                        >>S.C.A. Organizational
                        >>Handbook <http://sca.org/ docs/govdocs. pdf> (the
                        >>governing documents of
                        >>the Society, which you should read, if you haven't
                        >>already), where is
                        >>writ:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts
                        >>
                        >>where members dress
                        >>
                        >>>in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and
                        >>
                        >>Renaissance, and
                        >>
                        >>>participate in activities based on the civil and
                        >>
                        >>martial skills of the
                        >>
                        >>>period. These activities recreate aspects of the
                        >>
                        >>life and culture of
                        >>
                        >>>the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE.
                        >>
                        >>The dress, pastimes,
                        >>
                        >>>and above all the chivalric ideals of the period
                        >>
                        >>serve to unify our
                        >>
                        >>>events and activities.
                        >>
                        >>Corpora (also part of the Organizational Handbook)
                        >>states:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>The term �Society event� refers to tournaments,
                        >>
                        >>feasts, and other
                        >>
                        >>>activities whereby participants can display the
                        >>
                        >>results of their
                        >>
                        >>>researches into the culture and technology of the
                        >>
                        >>period in an
                        >>
                        >>>environment which evokes the atmosphere of the
                        >>
                        >>pre-17th century
                        >>
                        >>>European Middle Ages and Renaissance.
                        >>
                        >>People have different ideas about how much care
                        >>should be taken in the
                        >>evocation of said atmosphere. Many feel that one
                        >>detracts from it by,
                        >>say, coming into court dressed as a servant when
                        >>being called to do
                        >>something a servant could never do in period, or
                        >>serving feast wearing
                        >>something only a high-ranking noble could afford.
                        >>Some sidestep the
                        >>issue by changing the "class" of their clothing to
                        >>suit the occasion.
                        >>Others take on alternate personae when it's time to
                        >>do something their
                        >>primary personae wouldn't. Whether that's generally
                        >>expected or just
                        >>something the more persona-conscious do for their
                        >>own peace of mind
                        >>varies from area to area. Only somebody in your own
                        >>can tell you how
                        >>it's viewed there.
                        >>
                        >>There are also some people in the Society who take
                        >>persona play very
                        >>seriously and who feel that (1) behaving the way
                        >>nobles were, in
                        >>period, expected to behave is no fun, (2) having a
                        >>"medieval" or
                        >>"Renaissance" society with no servants, farmers,
                        >>tradesmen, or
                        >>merchants is ridiculous on its face, and/or (3)
                        >>there are tasks that
                        >>must be performed at every event that one of "gentle
                        >>birth" cannot
                        >>perform without breaking persona, so the only way to
                        >>maintain a
                        >>medieval or Renaissance atmosphere and get them done
                        >>is for someone to
                        >>be "lower-class" . Many of them have lower- or
                        >>middle-class primary or
                        >>alternate personae. We have a couple of peers in
                        >>our barony who "never
                        >>come to events", but often "send their servants"
                        >>(i.e., show up under
                        >>another name, dressed as lower-class, and have a
                        >>high old time). Our
                        >>Baron (who holds our kingdom's highest honor for
                        >>persona play, himself)
                        >>typically goes along with the game. One might, for
                        >>example, be given
                        >>an award for service, but have the usual, "I've seen
                        >>him helping out in
                        >>the kitchen at every event for the past three years.
                        >>. .," explanation
                        >>rephrased to something like, "He's sent his servants
                        >>to work in the
                        >>kitchen. . .." Similarly, some members of our
                        >>populace attribute their
                        >>A&S efforts to "employees", offering statements
                        >>like, "I'm having a
                        >>dress made in the loveliest shade of crimson. My
                        >>seamstress is just
                        >>working on the beading of the sleeves now."
                        >>
                        >>Alternate, lower-class personae are also popular
                        >>tools for those who'd
                        >>like to occasionally behave outrageously, without
                        >>affecting their
                        >>primary personae's reputations. There's a local
                        >>Laurel who bears a
                        >>remarkable resemblance to a certain disreputable
                        >>character who shows up
                        >>from time to time selling false letters patent or
                        >>trading in debased
                        >>coins. Nobody knows the fellow's name, and if you
                        >>address him as
                        >>"m'lord" he chortles and says something like, "Oh, I
                        >>ain't no lord, me!
                        >>Mercy! What a thought! 'Lord,' she says!" A
                        >>friend of mine has an
                        >>alternate persona that was recently called into
                        >>court, chastised for
                        >>her loose behavior (running around in public at a
                        >>past event in her
                        >>shift), accused of theft (of something belonging to
                        >>her primary
                        >>persona), and ordered to return to service with her
                        >>former mistress
                        >>(said primary persona). Her mistress' husband came
                        >>in to take charge
                        >>of her, and assured the Baron she'd be watched
                        >>closely and given enough
                        >>work to keep her out of trouble. The servant only
                        >>ever shows up at
                        >>local revels, flirts with all the men, and complains
                        >>about how uptight
                        >>her mistress is. She has everybody laughing every
                        >>time she's around,
                        >>but she's definitely not the kind of person you'd
                        >>want representing the
                        >>Barony when, say, the Queen was present.
                        >>
                        >>What you want to remember is that, if you have a
                        >>real, fully-developed
                        >>persona, your behavior will be determined by your
                        >>social position. Our
                        >>patent-selling commoner slips away quietly when
                        >>members of the guard
                        >>are about, for example, while his Laurel
                        >>doppelg�nger wouldn't hesitate
                        >>to send one of them on an errand.
                        >>
                        >>If you really just want a loose back-story, that's
                        >>allowed, too. In
                        >>the S.C.A. even merchants can speak to nobles
                        >>without first being
                        >>spoken to by them, for instance, even if they
                        >>wouldn't have dared in
                        >>the periods to which they dress.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                        >>Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                        >>Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        >><mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
                        > Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
                        > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        Yahoo! Groups Links





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                      • Janet
                        Roflmao...I have 5 alts in WoW and barely even have a persona for the SCA... ~Isabel (Leonette, Ysabella, Erzbet, Petrenelle, Caeciliana...lol) ... From: Larry
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 2, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Roflmao...I have 5 alts in WoW and barely even have a persona for the SCA...
                          ~Isabel (Leonette, Ysabella, Erzbet, Petrenelle, Caeciliana...lol)
                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Larry <lrf@...>
                          To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 4:35:34 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk

                          WOW, and I thought "Alts" were only for video games...
                          LOL

                          Ahnuld the Woodsman



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                        • Bulgarelli Maria
                          Noooo Vivien. Say it like someone who s using excessive politeness as a form of insult. HEHEHE That s what I d do. Actually no I d be even more excessively
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 3, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Noooo Vivien. Say it like someone who's using
                            excessive politeness as a form of insult. HEHEHE

                            That's what I'd do.

                            Actually no I'd be even more excessively polite and
                            find a reference to the fact that the person is wrong.
                            Then I'd show it to them. That actually show the
                            person where they are wrong and still be polite.

                            Damn my Pelican is definitely rubbing off on me.

                            Maria
                            --- Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:

                            > Ah well, so much for my theory that the person was
                            > worried about a lack of courtly behavior then.
                            > Viviven, I suggest you go up to the person who was
                            > hassling you and ask "I just can't seem to find that
                            > rule you mentioned, and no one on any of my SCA
                            > email lists has heard of it, would you mind awfully
                            > telling me where it says that we *have* to be
                            > nobility? Thanks!" (Feel free to say it more like
                            > a normal person and less like someone who's using
                            > excessive politeness as a form of insult. = )
                            >
                            > Elspeth
                            > (who would just like to clarify that she never
                            > intended to imply that clothing had anything to do
                            > with this topic)
                            >
                            > I bring myself happiness by surrounding myself with
                            > beautiful things;
                            > I bring myself joy by trying to see the beauty in
                            > all things.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: Susan Farmer <sfarmer@...>
                            > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2007 2:30:24 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk
                            >
                            > Quoting Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@ yahoo.com>:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > On 8/2/07, Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@
                            > yahoo.com> wrote:
                            > >> Why would a person of merchant class or lower be
                            > invited to the
                            > >> great halls of the nobility? That's the basic
                            > problem with an
                            > >> exclusively middle/lower class persona. It
                            > doesn't actually make
                            > >> sense for them to be at feast (except as
                            > servants) or court (except
                            > >> as supplicants) .
                            > >>
                            > >> Feel free to have your persona be as you choose,
                            > just be flexible
                            > >> enough to pretend to nobility when in a situation
                            > that's only for
                            > >> the upper class.
                            > >>
                            >
                            > Really. We don't see that where I play. The
                            > barbarians (and pesants)
                            > may not be seated on the front row, but they're
                            > there -- and in
                            > "persona." And they get called into court.
                            >
                            > jerusha in Meridies
                            > -----
                            > Susan Farmer
                            > sfarmer@goldsword. com
                            > Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
                            > Division of Science and Math
                            > http://www.goldswor d.com/sfarmer/ Trillium/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                          • mackayjenn
                            The only problem is that some people who ve been playing for a long time forget that it s a game. :) My hubby does a 1st century AD Roman and boy, I could get
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 13, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The only problem is that some people who've been playing for a long
                              time forget that it's a game. :)

                              My hubby does a 1st century AD Roman and boy, I could get on my
                              soapbox about defending HIM for THAT choice. :) I wanted to have fun,
                              so I'm doing a Roman lady in the same time period as a second persona.

                              Just tell people if you ever decide to do an usual persona that
                              you're trying to have FUN. (By the way, Corpora says the SCA does pre-
                              1600 and doesn't mention a specific start date. You will find a copy
                              of it on the main SCA site in case there's any other "early birds"
                              out there getting flak.)

                              Gemma Northwode


                              --- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, Denise Keppel <dkeppel@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Using that logic, why would a 12th century Viking, a
                              > 14th century German, and a 1500 Englishman be in the
                              > same court? It's a game, it's called playing. It's
                              > not to be taken that seriously.
                              >
                              >
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