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Re: [SCA Newcomers] gentle folk

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  • Sara L Uckelman
    ... All that Corpora says is that All participants are expected to behave as ladies or gentlemen. It is possible to have a lower-class persona and still
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2, 2007
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      Quoth "jimmielou111":
      > class folk took that particular job. "So what?" I asked. I was told
      > only "gentlefolk" were appropriate personas -- no lower class,
      > beggers, etc. I asked why and was told it had something to do with
      > court but being such a newcomer I didn't understand what he meant and
      > didn't have time to press the matter.

      All that Corpora says is that "All participants are expected to behave
      as ladies or gentlemen."

      It is possible to have a lower-class persona and still behave as a
      lady or gentleman, but it isn't possible, say, to play a thief or a
      and still be a gentleman. The generally assumption among participants
      is that everyone is gentry or higher, but this is not a rule and there
      are people who play exceptions.

      -Aryanhwy




      --
      vita sine literis mors est
      http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
    • Bulgarelli Maria
      I must agree. The SCA has the custom (it s not a RULE) that all people in the SCA are of noble birth unles they specifically choose not to be. There are many
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 2, 2007
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        I must agree. The SCA has the custom (it's not a
        RULE) that all people in the SCA are of noble birth
        unles they specifically choose not to be. There are
        many people here in Ansteorra who have chosen this (it
        is less hot to be a peasant).

        But as I said, it's not a RULE. There are really only
        a few rules in the SCA, everything else is just
        custom.

        Maria
        --- Antonio Morejon <asmorejonms@...> wrote:

        > I have never heard of this SCA rule.
        > It would be dumb for this to be so, for without a
        > blacksmith a Knight would have no armour or weapons,
        > without a stable keeper where would a Knight keep
        > his horse, without a fair serving wench or tavern
        > keeper where would a knight enjoy his mead, who
        > would miniter to the aristocracy if not pages and
        > ladies in waiting.
        > All thru history the so called lower class has
        > been the backbone of society and an honorable gentle
        > Lord or a gentle Ladie should take this into
        > consideration.
        >
        > Honor, Valor and Justice
        > Sir Tony More of the Scarlet Dragon
        >
        > jimmielou111 <jimmielou111@...> wrote:
        > Something was brought up to me at my SCA
        > meeting last night that had
        > never occured to me. I mentioned to someone that my
        > husband was
        > considering a certain kind of persona and was told
        > that only lower
        > class folk took that particular job. "So what?" I
        > asked. I was told
        > only "gentlefolk" were appropriate personas -- no
        > lower class,
        > beggers, etc. I asked why and was told it had
        > something to do with
        > court but being such a newcomer I didn't understand
        > what he meant and
        > didn't have time to press the matter.
        > My persona was to be "middle class", a merchant's
        > widow. Can there be
        > no middle class, only upper class? What is the
        > definition of "gentle
        > folk"? It seems to me it would be better to have a
        > broad spectrum of
        > people to truly represent medieval society. I did
        > ask about pirates
        > since I have seen several postings of people who
        > want to be pirates
        > and was told most pirate personas are captains and
        > of a higher rank.
        > Did I miss something in reading up on SCA? I don't
        > remember ever
        > seeing anything mentioned about class and rank.
        > Maybe I just missed it.
        >
        > Viviven Hollingsworth
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > A.S.Morejon
        > A.S.Morejon Multiple Services
        > Money, Music & Enlightenment
        > " We Do It All "
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
      • Susan Farmer
        ... It s not. We are all assumed to be of Gentle Birth -- but you may have whatever persona that you desire -- and you may go to court. I mean, after all,
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 2, 2007
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          Quoting Antonio Morejon <asmorejonms@...>:

          > I have never heard of this SCA rule.
          >

          It's not. We are all assumed to be of Gentle Birth -- but you may
          have whatever persona that you desire -- and you may go to court. I
          mean, after all, why would a 1066 NOrman and a 1066 Saxon break bread
          together at feast!

          jerusha
          -----
          Susan Farmer
          sfarmer@...
          Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
          Division of Science and Math
          http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
        • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          ... Persona is an entirely personal matter. You can choose any persona you like, or no persona at all. When we say, Everyone in the S.C.A. is assumed to be
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 2, 2007
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            Viviven Hollingsworth wrote:
            > I was told only "gentlefolk" were appropriate personas -- no lower
            > class, beggers, etc.. . .Did I miss something in reading up on SCA? I
            > don't remember ever
            > seeing anything mentioned about class and rank.. . .

            Persona is an entirely personal matter. You can choose any persona you
            like, or no persona at all.

            When we say, "Everyone in the S.C.A. is assumed to be of gentle birth,"
            what we mean is that nobody is banned from activities or positions that
            would, in period, only have been available to those of gentle birth.
            In many re-enactment and living history groups, almost everybody is
            designated as lower-class, and must dress and act accordingly. This
            allows the group's re-enactments or displays to accurately reflect the
            times and events they are meant to. But it means that only certain
            people can, for instance, wear silk, or use chain mail, or have a metal
            cup to drink from. In some of these groups, one can choose which class
            to portray. In others, everybody starts off as lower-class, until
            somebody upper-class decides to quit there's no opportunity to change
            (because there can be only one leader for every band), and one can
            switch from lower- to upper-class only by taking on a whole new persona
            (because, in most periods of European history, peasants simply did not
            become nobles). That's not the way the Society has chosen to go. A
            rank newbie is entitled to dress in satin and lace, if that's what she
            wants, and someone who spends most of her time at events washing dishes
            and re-stocking toilet paper may be elevated to the peerage.

            The Society is, of course, built around activities in which serfs and
            burghers didn't engage, like tournaments and courts of honor. This is
            expressly acknowledged in the introduction to the S.C.A. Organizational
            Handbook <http://sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf> (the governing documents of
            the Society, which you should read, if you haven't already), where is
            writ:

            > We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts where members dress
            > in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and
            > participate in activities based on the civil and martial skills of the
            > period. These activities recreate aspects of the life and culture of
            > the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE. The dress, pastimes,
            > and above all the chivalric ideals of the period serve to unify our
            > events and activities.

            Corpora (also part of the Organizational Handbook) states:

            > The term “Society event” refers to tournaments, feasts, and other
            > activities whereby participants can display the results of their
            > researches into the culture and technology of the period in an
            > environment which evokes the atmosphere of the pre-17th century
            > European Middle Ages and Renaissance.

            People have different ideas about how much care should be taken in the
            evocation of said atmosphere. Many feel that one detracts from it by,
            say, coming into court dressed as a servant when being called to do
            something a servant could never do in period, or serving feast wearing
            something only a high-ranking noble could afford. Some sidestep the
            issue by changing the "class" of their clothing to suit the occasion.
            Others take on alternate personae when it's time to do something their
            primary personae wouldn't. Whether that's generally expected or just
            something the more persona-conscious do for their own peace of mind
            varies from area to area. Only somebody in your own can tell you how
            it's viewed there.

            There are also some people in the Society who take persona play very
            seriously and who feel that (1) behaving the way nobles were, in
            period, expected to behave is no fun, (2) having a "medieval" or
            "Renaissance" society with no servants, farmers, tradesmen, or
            merchants is ridiculous on its face, and/or (3) there are tasks that
            must be performed at every event that one of "gentle birth" cannot
            perform without breaking persona, so the only way to maintain a
            medieval or Renaissance atmosphere and get them done is for someone to
            be "lower-class". Many of them have lower- or middle-class primary or
            alternate personae. We have a couple of peers in our barony who "never
            come to events", but often "send their servants" (i.e., show up under
            another name, dressed as lower-class, and have a high old time). Our
            Baron (who holds our kingdom's highest honor for persona play, himself)
            typically goes along with the game. One might, for example, be given
            an award for service, but have the usual, "I've seen him helping out in
            the kitchen at every event for the past three years. . .," explanation
            rephrased to something like, "He's sent his servants to work in the
            kitchen. . .." Similarly, some members of our populace attribute their
            A&S efforts to "employees", offering statements like, "I'm having a
            dress made in the loveliest shade of crimson. My seamstress is just
            working on the beading of the sleeves now."

            Alternate, lower-class personae are also popular tools for those who'd
            like to occasionally behave outrageously, without affecting their
            primary personae's reputations. There's a local Laurel who bears a
            remarkable resemblance to a certain disreputable character who shows up
            from time to time selling false letters patent or trading in debased
            coins. Nobody knows the fellow's name, and if you address him as
            "m'lord" he chortles and says something like, "Oh, I ain't no lord, me!
            Mercy! What a thought! 'Lord,' she says!" A friend of mine has an
            alternate persona that was recently called into court, chastised for
            her loose behavior (running around in public at a past event in her
            shift), accused of theft (of something belonging to her primary
            persona), and ordered to return to service with her former mistress
            (said primary persona). Her mistress' husband came in to take charge
            of her, and assured the Baron she'd be watched closely and given enough
            work to keep her out of trouble. The servant only ever shows up at
            local revels, flirts with all the men, and complains about how uptight
            her mistress is. She has everybody laughing every time she's around,
            but she's definitely not the kind of person you'd want representing the
            Barony when, say, the Queen was present.

            What you want to remember is that, if you have a real, fully-developed
            persona, your behavior will be determined by your social position. Our
            patent-selling commoner slips away quietly when members of the guard
            are about, for example, while his Laurel doppelgänger wouldn't hesitate
            to send one of them on an errand.

            If you really just want a loose back-story, that's allowed, too. In
            the S.C.A. even merchants can speak to nobles without first being
            spoken to by them, for instance, even if they wouldn't have dared in
            the periods to which they dress.


            Coblaith Mhuimhneach
            Barony of Bryn Gwlad
            Kingdom of Ansteorra
            <mailto:Coblaith@...>
          • Larry
            WOW, and I thought Alts were only for video games... LOL Ahnuld the Woodsman
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 2, 2007
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              WOW, and I thought "Alts" were only for video games...
              LOL

              Ahnuld the Woodsman


              --- Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>
              wrote:

              > Viviven Hollingsworth wrote:
              > > I was told only "gentlefolk" were appropriate
              > personas -- no lower
              > > class, beggers, etc.. . .Did I miss something in
              > reading up on SCA? I
              > > don't remember ever
              > > seeing anything mentioned about class and rank.. .
              > .
              >
              > Persona is an entirely personal matter. You can
              > choose any persona you
              > like, or no persona at all.
              >
              > When we say, "Everyone in the S.C.A. is assumed to
              > be of gentle birth,"
              > what we mean is that nobody is banned from
              > activities or positions that
              > would, in period, only have been available to those
              > of gentle birth.
              > In many re-enactment and living history groups,
              > almost everybody is
              > designated as lower-class, and must dress and act
              > accordingly. This
              > allows the group's re-enactments or displays to
              > accurately reflect the
              > times and events they are meant to. But it means
              > that only certain
              > people can, for instance, wear silk, or use chain
              > mail, or have a metal
              > cup to drink from. In some of these groups, one can
              > choose which class
              > to portray. In others, everybody starts off as
              > lower-class, until
              > somebody upper-class decides to quit there's no
              > opportunity to change
              > (because there can be only one leader for every
              > band), and one can
              > switch from lower- to upper-class only by taking on
              > a whole new persona
              > (because, in most periods of European history,
              > peasants simply did not
              > become nobles). That's not the way the Society has
              > chosen to go. A
              > rank newbie is entitled to dress in satin and lace,
              > if that's what she
              > wants, and someone who spends most of her time at
              > events washing dishes
              > and re-stocking toilet paper may be elevated to the
              > peerage.
              >
              > The Society is, of course, built around activities
              > in which serfs and
              > burghers didn't engage, like tournaments and courts
              > of honor. This is
              > expressly acknowledged in the introduction to the
              > S.C.A. Organizational
              > Handbook <http://sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf> (the
              > governing documents of
              > the Society, which you should read, if you haven't
              > already), where is
              > writ:
              >
              > > We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts
              > where members dress
              > > in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and
              > Renaissance, and
              > > participate in activities based on the civil and
              > martial skills of the
              > > period. These activities recreate aspects of the
              > life and culture of
              > > the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE.
              > The dress, pastimes,
              > > and above all the chivalric ideals of the period
              > serve to unify our
              > > events and activities.
              >
              > Corpora (also part of the Organizational Handbook)
              > states:
              >
              > > The term “Society event” refers to tournaments,
              > feasts, and other
              > > activities whereby participants can display the
              > results of their
              > > researches into the culture and technology of the
              > period in an
              > > environment which evokes the atmosphere of the
              > pre-17th century
              > > European Middle Ages and Renaissance.
              >
              > People have different ideas about how much care
              > should be taken in the
              > evocation of said atmosphere. Many feel that one
              > detracts from it by,
              > say, coming into court dressed as a servant when
              > being called to do
              > something a servant could never do in period, or
              > serving feast wearing
              > something only a high-ranking noble could afford.
              > Some sidestep the
              > issue by changing the "class" of their clothing to
              > suit the occasion.
              > Others take on alternate personae when it's time to
              > do something their
              > primary personae wouldn't. Whether that's generally
              > expected or just
              > something the more persona-conscious do for their
              > own peace of mind
              > varies from area to area. Only somebody in your own
              > can tell you how
              > it's viewed there.
              >
              > There are also some people in the Society who take
              > persona play very
              > seriously and who feel that (1) behaving the way
              > nobles were, in
              > period, expected to behave is no fun, (2) having a
              > "medieval" or
              > "Renaissance" society with no servants, farmers,
              > tradesmen, or
              > merchants is ridiculous on its face, and/or (3)
              > there are tasks that
              > must be performed at every event that one of "gentle
              > birth" cannot
              > perform without breaking persona, so the only way to
              > maintain a
              > medieval or Renaissance atmosphere and get them done
              > is for someone to
              > be "lower-class". Many of them have lower- or
              > middle-class primary or
              > alternate personae. We have a couple of peers in
              > our barony who "never
              > come to events", but often "send their servants"
              > (i.e., show up under
              > another name, dressed as lower-class, and have a
              > high old time). Our
              > Baron (who holds our kingdom's highest honor for
              > persona play, himself)
              > typically goes along with the game. One might, for
              > example, be given
              > an award for service, but have the usual, "I've seen
              > him helping out in
              > the kitchen at every event for the past three years.
              > . .," explanation
              > rephrased to something like, "He's sent his servants
              > to work in the
              > kitchen. . .." Similarly, some members of our
              > populace attribute their
              > A&S efforts to "employees", offering statements
              > like, "I'm having a
              > dress made in the loveliest shade of crimson. My
              > seamstress is just
              > working on the beading of the sleeves now."
              >
              > Alternate, lower-class personae are also popular
              > tools for those who'd
              > like to occasionally behave outrageously, without
              > affecting their
              > primary personae's reputations. There's a local
              > Laurel who bears a
              > remarkable resemblance to a certain disreputable
              > character who shows up
              > from time to time selling false letters patent or
              > trading in debased
              > coins. Nobody knows the fellow's name, and if you
              > address him as
              > "m'lord" he chortles and says something like, "Oh, I
              > ain't no lord, me!
              > Mercy! What a thought! 'Lord,' she says!" A
              > friend of mine has an
              > alternate persona that was recently called into
              > court, chastised for
              > her loose behavior (running around in public at a
              > past event in her
              > shift), accused of theft (of something belonging to
              > her primary
              > persona), and ordered to return to service with her
              > former mistress
              > (said primary persona). Her mistress' husband came
              > in to take charge
              > of her, and assured the Baron she'd be watched
              > closely and given enough
              > work to keep her out of trouble. The servant only
              > ever shows up at
              > local revels, flirts with all the men, and complains
              > about how uptight
              > her mistress is. She has everybody laughing every
              > time she's around,
              > but she's definitely not the kind of person you'd
              > want representing the
              > Barony when, say, the Queen was present.
              >
              > What you want to remember is that, if you have a
              > real, fully-developed
              > persona, your behavior will be determined by your
              > social position. Our
              > patent-selling commoner slips away quietly when
              > members of the guard
              > are about, for example, while his Laurel
              > doppelgänger wouldn't hesitate
              > to send one of them on an errand.
              >
              > If you really just want a loose back-story, that's
              > allowed, too. In
              > the S.C.A. even merchants can speak to nobles
              > without first being
              > spoken to by them, for instance, even if they
              > wouldn't have dared in
              > the periods to which they dress.
              >
              >
              > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
              > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
              > Kingdom of Ansteorra
              > <mailto:Coblaith@...>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Pixie Rose
              We don t need no stinking court!!! (with an accent, of course!!) Rowen [Non-text portions of this
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                We don't need no stinking court!!! (with an accent, of course!!)

                Rowen

                << I do it the easy way... I DO NOT GO TO COURT!

                ~Wolfy>>


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Larry
                Your Majesty! The Peasants are revolting!! Yes... and they smell bad too... -- Marie Antoinette or Mel Brooks (I forget) Ahnuld
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                  "Your Majesty! The Peasants are revolting!!"
                  "Yes... and they smell bad too..."
                  -- Marie Antoinette or Mel Brooks (I forget)


                  Ahnuld

                  --- Pixie Rose <pixierosedragon@...> wrote:

                  > We don't need no stinking court!!! (with an accent,
                  > of course!!)
                  >
                  > Rowen
                  >
                  > << I do it the easy way... I DO NOT GO TO COURT!
                  >
                  > ~Wolfy>>
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Nicole E. Miller
                  I was watching History of the World, Part 1 last night. Officer: Your Majesty! The Peasants are revolting!! The King (Brookes) replies: I know, they stink
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                    I was watching History of the World, Part 1 last night.

                    Officer: "Your Majesty! The Peasants are revolting!!"
                    The King (Brookes) replies: "I know, they stink on ice!"


                    Its good to be the King,
                    Sian
                    ---- Larry <lrf@...> wrote:

                    =============
                    "Your Majesty! The Peasants are revolting!!"
                    "Yes... and they smell bad too..."
                    -- Marie Antoinette or Mel Brooks (I forget)


                    Ahnuld

                    --- Pixie Rose <pixierosedragon@...> wrote:

                    > We don't need no stinking court!!! (with an accent,
                    > of course!!)
                    >
                    > Rowen
                    >
                    > << I do it the easy way... I DO NOT GO TO COURT!
                    >
                    > ~Wolfy>>
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • jbjt30@juno.com
                    *grin* As soon as I read the message and saw Wolfy had responded I knew he would say something along those lines. ;) Don t let him scare you. ;) It isn t
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                      *grin* As soon as I read the message and saw Wolfy had responded I knew he would say something along those lines. ;) Don't let him scare you. ;) It isn't always that bad.
                      Fa'rissa
                      *grin* Yep, right after I hit "send" I realized I should have added that not going was also an option. But if your (other than Wolfy, who isn't) going to go, go as someone who would be there.

                      Elspeth

                      I do it the easy way... I DO NOT GO TO COURT!

                      ~Wolfy



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • jbjt30@juno.com
                      Dear Coblath and the original poster and to the rest of the good people on this list, ... like, or no persona at all. So true, I was goint to mention that if
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                        Dear Coblath and the original poster and to the rest of the good people on this list,
                        >Persona is an entirely personal matter. You can choose any persona you
                        like, or no persona at all.
                        So true, I was goint to mention that if someone didn't beat me to it, thank you for saving me the trouble.


                        >We have a couple of peers in our barony who "never come to events", but often "send their servants" (i.e., show up under another name, dressed as lower-class, and have a high old time). Our Baron (who holds our kingdom's highest honor for persona play, himself) typically goes along with the game. One might, for example, be given an award for service, but have the usual, "I've seen him helping out in the kitchen at every event for the past three years. . .," explanation rephrased to something like, "He's sent his servants to work in the kitchen. . .." Similarly, some members of our populace attribute their A&S efforts to "employees", offering statements like, "I'm having a dress made in the loveliest shade of crimson. My seamstress is just working on the beading of the sleeves now."

                        >Alternate, lower-class personae are also popular tools for those who'd
                        like to occasionally behave outrageously, without affecting their
                        primary personae's reputations. There's a local Laurel who bears a
                        remarkable resemblance to a certain disreputable character who shows up
                        from time to time selling false letters patent or trading in debased
                        coins. Nobody knows the fellow's name, and if you address him as
                        "m'lord" he chortles and says something like, "Oh, I ain't no lord, me!
                        Mercy! What a thought! 'Lord,' she says!" A friend of mine has an
                        alternate persona that was recently called into court, chastised for
                        her loose behavior (running around in public at a past event in her
                        shift), accused of theft (of something belonging to her primary
                        persona), and ordered to return to service with her former mistress
                        (said primary persona). Her mistress' husband came in to take charge
                        of her, and assured the Baron she'd be watched closely and given enough
                        work to keep her out of trouble. The servant only ever shows up at
                        local revels, flirts with all the men, and complains about how uptight
                        her mistress is. She has everybody laughing every time she's around,
                        but she's definitely not the kind of person you'd want representing the
                        Barony when, say, the Queen was present.

                        >What you want to remember is that, if you have a real, fully-developed
                        persona, your behavior will be determined by your social position. Our
                        patent-selling commoner slips away quietly when members of the guard
                        are about, for example, while his Laurel doppelg�nger wouldn't hesitate
                        to send one of them on an errand.
                        What wonderful persona stories. I really enjoyed them. Do you have anymore? I could read for hours about fun things a persons persona gets into. These were wonderful! Thanks for sharing not just your stories but also your wise insight to this situation. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is not only do some people not have a person at all while others have an alternate persona some people even have several personas. They are all differentiated by what that person wears or what accent the use when speaking, etc. Maybe to explain differant behavior or sometimes with the garb horse to explain wearing differant types of garb from differant time periods and countries.
                        So I say don't worry to much about the "were all of Noble birth" thing unless you just really want too.

                        Fair the well,
                        Fa'rissa of the Outlands

                        >Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                        Kingdom of Ansteorra
                        <mailto:Coblaith@...>




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sara
                        As one person said to me, The SCA is reliving the Middle Ages, the way it Should have been! Let me remind you that woman were also not fighters (although
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 3, 2007
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                          As one person said to me, "The SCA is reliving the Middle Ages, the
                          way it Should have been!"

                          Let me remind you that woman were also not fighters (although there
                          are instances of them helping defend their homes) They did not earn
                          honor for doing so. Pirates were NOT Gentile folks, and democracy was
                          barely begun.
                          Some people get a little too uptight regarding others' personas. Just
                          remember, you're there to have fun. Do what YOU enjoy the way you
                          enjoy it. And if someone seems to have a problem with it, you can
                          point out that you appreciate their opinion, but your doing what you
                          enjoy.

                          Ingela
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