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  • jimmielou111
    OK now I m confused. I decided to make a sideless surcote cause I was on a sewing binge and had lots of fabric to play with. My persona lives in 15th century
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 30, 2007
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      OK now I'm confused. I decided to make a sideless surcote 'cause I was
      on a sewing binge and had lots of fabric to play with. My persona
      lives in 15th century London, middle class. I started doing some
      research on surcotes and all I've read says only queens were wearing
      sideless surcotes by the 15th century. Anyone know any different?

      I want to add some interesting trim to the outfit (assuming I'm not
      told I shouldn't wear it at all) and fur seems to be the trim to use
      (fake fur for me of course - never real). I saw a photo on line of one
      a lady did with heraldic symbols but since I haven't gotten any
      approval from my herald on my strange device I've designed, it seemed
      a bit premature to go that route. Any opinions out there on this
      particular dress?

      Vivien Hollingsworth
    • Sara L Uckelman
      ... The section on surcoats in the Dress Diary of a Novice Medieval Seamstress says After further research, I see surcoats were used mainly by the English
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 30, 2007
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        Quoth "jimmielou111":
        > OK now I'm confused. I decided to make a sideless surcote 'cause I was
        > on a sewing binge and had lots of fabric to play with. My persona
        > lives in 15th century London, middle class. I started doing some
        > research on surcotes and all I've read says only queens were wearing
        > sideless surcotes by the 15th century. Anyone know any different?

        The section on surcoats in the "Dress Diary of a Novice Medieval
        Seamstress" says "After further research, I see surcoats were used
        mainly by the English and French beginning in the 12th century. As
        time progressed, the sideless surcoat was used mainly for ceremonial
        purposes by the 15th century."
        (http://dressdiary.blogspot.com/2006/06/sideless-surcoat_22.html)
        Some of the comments on this page have further information, and if you
        post a comment yourself you can probably find out what the "further
        research" the author did was.

        -Aryanhwy



        --
        vita sine literis mors est
        http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
      • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        ... Your information is correct. It s generally accepted that the sleeveless surcote emerged in the 12th century and developed into the sideless surcote
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 30, 2007
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          Vivien Hollingsworth wrote:
          > I started doing some research on surcotes and all I've read says only
          > queens were wearing sideless surcotes by the 15th century. Anyone know
          > any different?

          Your information is correct. It's generally accepted that the
          sleeveless surcote emerged in the 12th century and developed into the
          sideless surcote thereafter, and that sideless surcotes were no longer
          being worn in everyday life by the 15th century. Queens were sometimes
          depicted in them in 15th-century works, but their use there was likely
          symbolic--a way of telling the viewer that the subject of the work was
          royal--rather than a reflection of their actual clothing.

          > I saw a photo on line of one a lady did with heraldic symbols but
          > since I haven't gotten any approval from my herald on my strange
          > device I've designed, it seemed a bit premature to go that route. Any
          > opinions out there on this particular dress?

          There is some question as to whether women wore heraldic dresses in
          period, and if so, whether they wore it only on ceremonial occasions.
          There's an excellent discussion of the topic at
          <http://www.sca.org.au/st_florians/university/library/articles-howtos/
          heraldry/HeraldicFrocksS.htm>.

          Mi-parti surcotes, on the other hand, are widely depicted and were
          probably worn popularly. If you want to combine the principal
          tinctures of your proposed device in such a fashion (making the
          left-hand half of your surcote in one and the right-hand in another),
          that would be a plausible choice.


          Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        • mackayjenn
          Check out Spanish clothing from Leonora de Castille if you re interested in sideless surcoats. There is a drawing of one from an extant piece in a museum in
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 1, 2007
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            Check out Spanish clothing from Leonora de Castille if you're
            interested in sideless surcoats. There is a drawing of one from an
            extant piece in a museum in Madrid that belonged to Leonora de
            Castille.

            http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/sdress1.html

            http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/isabel.html

            Here's one a SCAnadian made that I came across today while surfing:

            http://silverstah.blogspot.com/2007/06/super-awesome-bias-cut-plaid-
            cotehardie.html

            Here is the male version:

            http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/sdress2.html

            More info:

            http://silverrylle.eastkingdom.org/research/isabel/thirteenth_century_
            christian_clothing.doc

            http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/VI_07_01.htm

            http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/6_Dobove/07_Svrchniky/VI_07_01.htm

            Good information on Spanish clothing:

            http://jessamynscloset.com/13thc.html

            http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/andalus13c.html


            Check with the Medieval Spain Yahoo group for more links and
            information. Have fun!

            Gemma Northwode
            Antir
            Barony of Stromgard
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